ICEs and EVs

[Funkworks]

Enjoy!

(personally, I'll stay out of it )

 

[jderimig]

ICE with mules made with Tito's always.

 

[FredA]

I agree - ICE is one of man's best inventions.

 

[Scott_650]

I agree - ICE is one of man's best inventions.

“ICE is civilization!” - Allie Fox. Though it really didn’t work out quite the way Mr. Fox expected so take that quote with a grain of salt

 

[jderimig]

EV *ElectroVoice* still makes good professional (stadium etc) speakers I hear. Lets keep that going.

 

[Cnorm]

Crushed ICE or shave ICE?

 

[FredA]

Designer ICE BALLS of course.

 

[jderimig]

Crushed ICE or shave ICE?

Perfect cubes. The science on that is settled.

 

[Funkworks]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fact-check-claim-electric-car-035252116.html
Pretty much says it all with regards to the energy efficiency of EV's vs ICE's with regards to the burning of fossil fuels.

 

[dr wogz]

I'm partial to steam power..

 

[boomtube-mk2]

I'm partial to steam power..

So, you're in favor of fission or fusion then?
They are both just very complex and expensive ways to boil water.
Or perhaps you are referring to

 

[dr wogz]

So, you're in favor of fission or fusion then?
They are both just very complex and expensive ways to boil water.
Or perhaps you are referring toView attachment 494964

more like:



something to be said about the design & layout & the 'fanciness' of the parts (Gotta love 'Victorian' era parts!)

(water & wood / coal is relatively easy & inexpensive to acquire..)

 

[Funkworks]

I can stay out of this discussion, but I can also post a link to an upcoming free webinar by the DOE that happens to be on this subject.

Science at Work: Electric vs. Conventional Vehicles – Which Are Greener?

Join Argonne experts as they explore the best ways to measure greenhouse gas emissions

www.eventbrite.com

 

[mach7]

Neither are "Green" in that both use energy, but so does a horse/mule/ox....

I have both ( ICE and EV), both work well (with limitations). Both solve a need to keep our civilization working.
Things need to be Invented, grown/made, processed, moved, temp controlled, stored, distributed. People need to move
about efficiently.

ICE's are VERY advanced and refined. Humans have made them very reliable and VERY efficient over the last 120 years.
Modern day ICE's have thermal efficiencies in the 30-40% range, Unthinkable 40 years ago.
The energy to mass available in gasoline is very high. There is a worldwide infrastructure for its use.

EV's are still relatively new, I know they have been around since the early 1900's, but they did not become mainstream until last 10 years. In many ways we still don't know what we don't know yet.
What we do know is they are cool, quiet, require much less maintenance, and are seemingly very efficient.

But are they? The jury is really still out.

Concern 1, Battery life.

From reading, my own experience, and talking to other EV owners. If your battery makes it to 10,000 miles it will probably
make it to 300,000 miles. Getting to 10K seems to be when most of the issues will show.

Concern 2, Battery price.

They are VERY expensive, $20-30K for a realistic battery pack. So it's good they seem to be lasting.

Concern 3, Mass

Batteries weigh a lot. A Tesla Model S battery is 1200 pounds, then you need all the car around it. 4800 pounds for a Model S total. For comparison a comparable ICE sedan would be around 3000 pounds.

Concern 4, the energy cycle

Batteries are a storage device, put energy in and you can take energy out. This takes time and extra energy.
The current standard is a home 250V line. To charge a Tesla from empty to full would take between 8-12 hours.
Yes I know the "Super Chargers!" They will give you up to 80% charge in 30 min. As of now you can find them, and chances are
that one will be available. That will not always be the case. Tesla has 2 million cars on the road. A home super charger is a $5-10K investment.
The infrastructure for charging just isn't there yet. It might be at some time in the future, if billions of $$ are spent.
But our electric grid is already operating in the high 90's% of capacity. So we need to build more electric generating plants.
Clean coal? Natural gas? Nuclear? Hydro? Solar? Geo thermal?
Then there is power transmission loss 10-15%.

 

[rharshberger]

So, you're in favor of fission or fusion then? They are both just very complex and expensive ways to boil water. Or perhaps you are referring to

yes please on all counts.....

 

[Funkworks]

In case there are still people wondering about what kind of propulsion causes more emissions:

ShieldSquare Captcha

iopscience.iop.org

More EVs, Fewer Emissions - RMI

How smart charging electric vehicles can make EVs even cleaner than they already are.

rmi.org

 

[DEmery]

A few weeks ago I drove from Montana to Albuquerque, and it was -10 degrees Fahrenheit for the first 500 miles. I’m not sure Evs are up to that task yet. Someday.

 

[BEC]

Looking at the current map of Tesla Supercharger locations, it looks to me as if one could do that trip in a Tesla (at least a recent one with a heat pump instead of resistance heating). Probably no other EV (yet). As you say, someday.

 

[DEmery]

We have a destination station here in Red Lodge, MT. It’s 280 miles to Casper, WY. Might be a problem on the return trip.

 

[mach7]

Looking at the current map of Tesla Supercharger locations, it looks to me as if one could do that trip in a Tesla (at least a recent one with a heat pump instead of resistance heating). Probably no other EV (yet). As you say, someday.

The current Cannonball run record is 27 hours 25 min (I think, it's being broken so fast lately).

The EV Cannonball is 42 hours 17 min in a Tesla Model S. The prior EV Cannonball record was about 44:20 hour in a Porsche Taycan. So what can we take from this?

15 hours of extra time to charge for a cross country trip (at speeds of 100MPH+) of 42 hours. Thats a very significant amount of time and that Tesla's network of super chargers reduced charging time by 2 hours.

Mind you both ICE and EV had to stop for go juice. The EV needed almost 30% more time to charge than the ICE needed to gas up. Again assuming similar driving speeds, 100+MPH.

So the Charge time is very significant, but another bit of information to glean is that just about 10 years from EVs becoming mainstream a Cannonball run is even possible with the current infrastructure. Impressive.
Another bit of information, very surprising to me, is that the Tesla supercharger network only saves 2 hours. I would have thought it would allow more time saving.

 

[BEC]

Talk about an edge case! How many regular people really travel as if they are trying to break the record for the Cannonball run? Maybe when I was college age, a trip like that would be cool to do — once. But 40+ years later, there is no way I want to do that. Stopping for ~20 minutes every couple of hours on a road trip to get out and walk around and so forth is now the norm for my wife and I on road trips. That only every second or third such stop includes buying gasoline now is almost irrelevant.

We grew up in the southwest and charging infrastructure still doesn't support a trip from here (just south of Seattle) back to visit family in New Mexico very well, though the Supercharger network is now to the point it would be reasonably possible (as long as we stayed near Interstates) if we owned a Tesla, which we don't. But it's coming, I hope.

 

[Rob Campbell]

While this is technically a steam powered vehicle, it would be far worst than a Pinto when hit from the rear.

Ford Nucleon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

.

 

[Titan II]

Talk about an edge case! How many regular people really travel as if they are trying to break the record for the Cannonball run?

Maybe not at Cannonball speeds, but many do long distance non-stop trips. I have done numerous 24 to 48 hour straight trips. Including in my 70s. Also, here is one of the most important reasons not to go EV.

 

[mach7]

Talk about an edge case!

Of course its an edge case, but that was my point. The data is still relevant in a comparison of ICE and EV.

 

[BEC]

Fair enough.

Perfection is the enemy of good enough in many areas of life...

@Titan II Glad to hear your knees and other body parts are OK with trips like that, even in your 70s.

 

[MClark]

A friend has a Tesla and drives a couple times a year from Portland OR to Phoenix. He stops at super chargers as he has the free recharge. He is 80 something so his range and the car range is about equal.

 

[Pete.D]

For 3 years I've driven 2200 miles from upstate NY to southwest NM and back a couple times a year, towing my camper with a big 10 mpg SUV. It took two and a half days each way, driving within 10 MPH of the speed limit, and stopping every 200 miles for gas. Piece of cake; 5 to 15 minutes each gas/snack stop plus two 6-hour overnight stops at rest areas or truck stops (I'm too old for reckless nonstops, but I've done that too in my youth: my personal best time CA to NY was 41 hours with a little help from my wife, and without exceeding 100 mph).

None of the current EVs will pull my 5500 Lb camper, but when big EV trucks eventually become actually available at an affordable price they'd probably have to stop at least every 120 miles (with reserves) or so while towing that load at highway speeds. Figuring at least an hour to recharge at each stop and sleeping every (additional) night, it would take AT LEAST a week to do the same mission. This is assuming that I'd even be able to find fast-charging stations every 120 miles, and that I could stand the boredom of waiting for recharges.

So while I may possibly try a small EV to replace my Mini Cooper for around-town driving, it's very doubtful an EV will ever be a practical traveling vehicle for me in my lifetime. Like most normal-income Americans, I'll be sticking to gas power for the foreseeable future.

 

[AllDigital]

A few weeks ago I drove from Montana to Albuquerque, and it was -10 degrees Fahrenheit for the first 500 miles. I’m not sure Evs are up to that task yet. Someday.

EVs are up to the task. Tesla is the number one car sold in Sweden and Norway and number two in Finland. -10F degrees is a balmy day in Sweden in the winter. The vehicles are heavy, traction control is way better than any ICE car I’ve driven, but they do lose range in very cold weather. An ICE car will also lose range (about 19% comparing 73 degrees to 0 degrees F). Teslas new LFP batteries narrow the range loss gap to almost the same.

 

[DEmery]

So will the Tesla make it 280 miles in that weather, as that is the distance to Casper and the first charging station? My Expedition got the same mileage it aways does (20 mpg ) that day.

 

[rharshberger]

So will the Tesla make it 280 miles in that weather, as that is the distance to Casper and the first charging station? My Expedition got the same mileage it aways does (20 mpg ) that day.

Seems to me its mostly the smaller engines that seem to have reduced mileage in cold weather, my truck (2004 F250, 5.7 Triton) gets the same mileage roughly year around, my Mini Cooper on the other hand as (well as the previous car 2000 Audi A6) both take a noticeable mileage hit in cold weather. The price of new EV's is still averaging 50K based on a number I heard earlier this week, until that number drops into the 30K and under range they are out of reach of the "average" American or they are not willing to take on that debt. Our next vehicle purchase is to replace my truck with a diesel 1 ton version and at this point I am thinking it will be an older one and just drop a new motor and transmission into as diesel pickups have gotten stupid expensive