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Yeah, I gathered that about the Teslas being damaged more often, too. The way an EV performs, especially with Tesla's bent toward the extreme, can certainly catch someone by surprise if he/she just mashes down on the go pedal.
 
I fall into the just want a car, and don't want to have to mess around with figuring out charging. I don't do that at home, and have no clue what's up with that.
trying to figure that out on the fly? No thanks.

BTW I rented a Jeep Wagoneer from Bradley Airport in Windsor, CT....drove it to BALLS and back. I logged 8400 miles, 600 to 700 a day on the way out and back. I'm not sure that could have been done with a EV. Certainly it would have been much more difficult.

I'll ask how many miles on the 'cuda when i see him at the firehouse.
 
bjphoenix said:
Timing chains can last a long time. Now the gear on the end of the cam- that's a different story. If it has an alloy gear with plastic teeth, those didn't last very long. The steel gears lasted a long time.
Click to expand...

That was the kill of the GM 2.4L 4 banger ; bad Timing Gears not chains
 
cbrarick said:
I agree with the above post regarding pickups
While the lightning and cybertruck are small forays into the mid size pickup market, their penetration is yet to be seen, we will have to wait a few years to honestly measure it.
However, for those who work with their truck or tow, not such a great option.
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That depends entirely on what kind of work you're doing with the truck. Truck usage is bimodal. Some do 5k miles/yr, some do 50k.

If you're in the first category, F150 Lighting seems to be the best thing ever. There are many trades where you drive to just a few regular, close by job sites every day. I've seen a few contractors with Lightnings, and I know a sprinkler guy who is thinking of getting a CT.

If you are hauling something over a distance, it's hard to beat a diesel truck. A large, slow-turning diesel has incredible fuel efficiency and range.

My next daily is likely to be an electric, but not my truck. For how I use it, I could even replace my truck with a CT with the range extender battery. I'd love to, but I just can't justify the price.

There's the right tool for every job. A battery-powered airplane makes about as much sense as a turbine-powered laptop.
 
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My comment stated that it was angled at those who tow or use their trucks for work and have a 1 ton truck. I'm not talking about people commuting, or the dozens of 1/4 ton pickups out there, but the big boys - where EV's have yet to even go. I'm not even certain they want to go there because they would have to directly compete with diesels.

I am interested in the development of hybrid technology in that sector and might be persuaded to buy a hybrid diesel.
 
cbrarick said:
My comment stated that it was angled at those who tow or use their trucks for work and have a 1 ton truck. I'm not talking about people commuting, or the dozens of 1/4 ton pickups out there, but the big boys - where EV's have yet to even go. I'm not even certain they want to go there because they would have to directly compete with diesels.
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I don't see a viable EV replacement on the market for anyone in need of towing.
For a while it looked like CyberTruck might be it, but what was released the other month fell well short of promises. Price went up 50%, and range went down by 1/3 vs. what was advertised originally. I have a deposit on one, but it looks increasingly unlikely that I will convert it into a sale.

cbrarick said:
I am interested in the development of hybrid technology in that sector and might be persuaded to buy a hybrid diesel.
Click to expand...

Hybrid, in and of itself, doesn't get you much other than lower MPG around town through limited EV mode range. By limited, I mean pretty limited: 10-60 miles. Basically useless in the towing mode.

If you are a hard-core greenie, you might argue that smaller hybrid batteries spread across 3 cars will have greater oil consumption reduction effect than 1 pure EV. Depending on drive-pattern assumptions, that may or may not be true.

But for long-distance driving and towing, micro-EV range hybrids are just added cost, weight, and complexity.
I wouldn't want to own one out of warranty.

a
 
cbrarick said:
My comment stated that it was angled at those who tow or use their trucks for work and have a 1 ton truck. I'm not talking about people commuting, or the dozens of 1/4 ton pickups out there, but the big boys - where EV's have yet to even go. I'm not even certain they want to go there because they would have to directly compete with diesels.

I am interested in the development of hybrid technology in that sector and might be persuaded to buy a hybrid diesel.
Click to expand...
This depends entirely on what you need the 1 ton for. The sprinkler guy I mentioned usually hauls a Bobcat for 20 miles out and back, perhaps twice a day. He needs the power of a diesel, but not the range, and that's why he's looking at an EV (I think he also wants to write off a cool truck as a business expense)

If you're hauling over a distance, you can't beat a diesel. An entire Tesla battery pack holds the same energy as a five gallon jerry can. A diesel 3500 rolling down the road at high RPM and low boost is about as efficient as it gets.

Interesting enough, the utility of electric propulsion flips again at the Class 8 range. It takes a huge amount of torque to get 30 tons rolling, but not anywhere near as much once it gets moving, necessitating a 10:1 or greater ratio spread in the transmission, and often an extra shaft. That transmission causes significant driveline loss. A simpler transmission optimized for the high range, and an auxiliary electric motor for low-end torque, would be worth a 10%+ efficiency improvement. On the low end, Honda does this with the Accord Hybrid (no transmission, gas engine permanently geared 1:1 direct drive, and an electric for low-end torque fill), and on the high end, there's the diesel-electric locomotive.

Perhaps we will even see this tech migrate to the medium duty market. A 3500 with a small three liter diesel efficiently driving the rear wheels for sustained towing, and a 200hp or electric motor that makes max torque at zero RPM driving the front wheels for acceleration and traction seems like a good combo.
 
FredA said:
As long as you don't want to be warm, that thought works.
Click to expand...
You can go a long way with the car cabin at 60 degrees with relatively little power usage, particularly if you have heated seats. Running a 100hp+ engine at idle to use the waste heat to heat the cabin is kinda like killing a fly with a sledgehammer.
 
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Broader perspective:
  • US EV market share (BEV only, excluding hybrids) went upto 7.6% in 2023 (1,189,051 vehicles) from 5.9% in 2022 (918,500 vehicles). That’s up from 3.2% in 2021, 1.7% in 2020, and 1.4% in 2019.
    • Tesla continues to dominate the EV market; 55% of the electric vehicles Americans purchased in 2023 were Tesla products. While that figure is down from 65% in 2022.
      • By total sales in the US, Tesla is now #9 brand overall in vehicle sales (654,888), ahead of Subaru, Mazda, Mercedes, BMW, and VW.
    • 12.5% of all new BMW sales were EVs. Mercedes-Benz and Audi also increased their EV sales in 2023, accounting for 11.4% and 11.0% of total brand sales, respectively. Among non-luxury brands, Volkswagen leads in share with EVs, accounting for 11.5% of its 2023 sales.
  • US EV sales are accelerating, with in Q4 2023 sales hitting a record for both volume and market share, with sales reaching 52% higher than in the fourth quarter of 2022. Americans bought 317,168 EVs between October and the end of December 2023, representing 8.1% of all new cars sold.
  • Average price paid for a new EV in December 2023 was $50,789.
  • KBB projects EV share of the total U.S. market will reach 10% in 2024.
  • Overall, US full-year vehicle sales were up 12.3% from 2022 year end to 15,608,386 units.

More data from sources below:

https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2024-01-1...les (EVs) represent the,up from 5.9% in 2022.
https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-usa-by-month
 
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boatgeek said:
Counterpoint: ICE cars regularly run out of gas in gridlock during storm evacuations, where an EV would just tootle along at low power usage.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4864361
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comparing a ICE with a full gas tank vs a EV with a full battery? Seems crazy.

AI told me The amount of gasoline consumed during idling varies depending on the specific car and its engine size, but it's generally estimated to be around 0.1-0.6 gallons per hour for modern cars.

even so, the cure for a out of gas ICE is some amount of gas. What do you do with a fully discharged EV? to the best of my knowledge no one has a portable battery station, so you just have to tow them away. If there was a evacuation, your chance of finding a open, working charger on the evacuation route would be extremely low, and you'd sit in the que for a long time for it.
 
cbrarick said:
comparing a ICE with a full gas tank vs a EV with a full battery? Seems crazy.

AI told me The amount of gasoline consumed during idling varies depending on the specific car and its engine size, but it's generally estimated to be around 0.1-0.6 gallons per hour for modern cars.

even so, the cure for a out of gas ICE is some amount of gas. What do you do with a fully discharged EV? to the best of my knowledge no one has a portable battery station, so you just have to tow them away. If there was a evacuation, your chance of finding a open, working charger on the evacuation route would be extremely low, and you'd sit in the que for a long time for it.
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You can stay reasonably comfortable in cold weather on your heated seats (approx. 250 watts for 4 seats). Let's round that up to 500W assuming you might want some hot air too. That gives ~140 hours of operating time on a 70 kWh battery. Call it 70 hours if you want to use half of the battery capacity for actually getting somewhere.

A typical small sedan burns 0.16 gal/hr idling and has a ~12 gallon fuel tank. That gives you 75 hours of operating, 36 hours if you use half the fuel to drive somewhere. Also, it's extremely common in disaster evacuations for gas stations to be out of fuel, so "just adding fuel" may not be as easy as you're saying. So you get half the idle/stuck time in an ICE than in an EV. Before you object, yes, you could turn off the engine intermittently to save fuel in an ICE without losing too much heat. That works great as long as you're not in stop-and-go traffic where you need to move ahead every little while.

I'm not saying there's no problems with EVs in an emergency evacuation. I don't think it's as clear as the NY Post makes it sound. And given the editorial direction the Post takes, that's probably not a surprise.
 
cbrarick said:
comparing a ICE with a full gas tank vs a EV with a full battery? Seems crazy.

AI told me The amount of gasoline consumed during idling varies depending on the specific car and its engine size, but it's generally estimated to be around 0.1-0.6 gallons per hour for modern cars.

even so, the cure for a out of gas ICE is some amount of gas. What do you do with a fully discharged EV? to the best of my knowledge no one has a portable battery station, so you just have to tow them away. If there was a evacuation, your chance of finding a open, working charger on the evacuation route would be extremely low, and you'd sit in the que for a long time for it.
Click to expand...
Many newer EVs, including the Cybertruck can charge other EVs. The Cybertruck would be able to add roughly 25 miles of range in 30 minutes to a typical EV, plenty for it to be able to get to a charger somewhere. in most areas.
 
darrenf said:
Many newer EVs, including the Cybertruck can charge other EVs. The Cybertruck would be able to add roughly 25 miles of range in 30 minutes to a typical EV, plenty for it to be able to get to a charger somewhere. in most areas.
Click to expand...

Fairly certain you need to understand the time and logistics of an evacuation, as from a Hurricane.

You may take 36-48 hours to go 200 miles. (Usually with a couple of pets and children in the car with you.).

25 miles of add is less than a curiosity.
 
An ICE with a full tank of gas ain't going anywhere if its' lead acid battery won't start the car in the freezing cold.
So the NY Post article is disingenuous.
I wonder how many ICEs were stranded in the Chicago area because the cold snap rendered their batteries inoperative?
And BTW there are after-market EV battery warmers that you can purchase.
IMHO that should be a dealer option for EV car owners in areas that are subject to extreme cold weather conditions.
Or just keep your ICE or EV in a heated garage.
Problem solved.
 
here it is https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t...&cvid=686d2415cd574d86a0eb527927ef9be8&ei=113

funny thing, in a evacuation, having gas for stalled cars is planned for. having a service vehicle dump a can of gas in a tank is no big deal.
trying to get some other ev up to charge the first? Well, how much battery does that one have to share? Probably in a similar state of discharge. Plus it's gotta get there. Nope, not buying it.
 
cbrarick said:
here it is https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t...&cvid=686d2415cd574d86a0eb527927ef9be8&ei=113

funny thing, in a evacuation, having gas for stalled cars is planned for. having a service vehicle dump a can of gas in a tank is no big deal.
trying to get some other ev up to charge the first? Well, how much battery does that one have to share? Probably in a similar state of discharge. Plus it's gotta get there. Nope, not buying it.
Click to expand...
Two words.
Portable generator.
 
cbrarick said:
here it is https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t...&cvid=686d2415cd574d86a0eb527927ef9be8&ei=113

funny thing, in a evacuation, having gas for stalled cars is planned for. having a service vehicle dump a can of gas in a tank is no big deal.
trying to get some other ev up to charge the first? Well, how much battery does that one have to share? Probably in a similar state of discharge. Plus it's gotta get there. Nope, not buying it.
Click to expand...
This just in! Changing fuels brings new challenges that will have to be planned for! In other news, buggy whip sales remain slow.

When we transitioned from horse power to gasoline power, there were a lot of things that changed. At first, there were few if any fueling stations. And the cars were really unreliable. And unwary owners could break their arms while starting them. And yet, here we are, with most of that figured out.

Electric cars are imperfect, and are still in development. Batteries are steadily improving as well. In many (but not all) real service cases, EVs are equivalent or better than ICEs. And EVs continue to get better.
 
boatgeek said:
Counterpoint: ICE cars regularly run out of gas in gridlock during storm evacuations, where an EV would just tootle along at low power usage.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4864361
Click to expand...
Actually, you've got that one completely backwards.

BEVs need to keep the battery at temperature. As a rule of thumb, if you're not comfortable, the battery isn't comfortable. BEV range drops enormously in the cold (30% or so) , and that's just to keep the battery happy while you're freezing. If you want to be comfortable too, range drops once again.
darrenf said:
Many newer EVs, including the Cybertruck can charge other EVs. The Cybertruck would be able to add roughly 25 miles of range in 30 minutes to a typical EV, plenty for it to be able to get to a charger somewhere. in most areas.
Click to expand...
Think big! Tankers!

When you get low on charge, drive up behind a tanker EV, extend your charging plug into the drogue, charge up, and keep on running.
 
Not Quite Nominal said:
Actually, you've got that one completely backwards.

BEVs need to keep the battery at temperature. As a rule of thumb, if you're not comfortable, the battery isn't comfortable. BEV range drops enormously in the cold (30% or so) , and that's just to keep the battery happy while you're freezing. If you want to be comfortable too, range drops once again.
Click to expand...
It's correct that I neglected to include battery heating. Per the thread below, that amounts to ~6 kWh/day with outside temperatures around zero. While that does drop the maximum idle time to around 46 hours, it's still 10 hours (30%) more than the typical ICE. So I stand by my conclusion.

https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/battery-conditioning-power-consumption.48443/
 
kuririn said:
Two words.
Portable generator.
Click to expand...
Let's see here:

In my fire department we have 3 engines, a heavy ladder, a heavy rescue, a tanker and 2 pickup trucks.
we have portable generators in 2 of our trucks, and only one each. Guess what? We're not going to leave them with a EV to charge
Every truck has at least one tank with gas in it. In a major emergency where we'd need it we have a few large portable tanks with electric pumps.

Most of our city cop cars carry 5 gallon gas can.

In a emergency you aren't going to get a generator. You might get gas.

Even if you phone a friend who just happens to have a generator, how's he (or she) going to get there in a emergency? AND it's going to have to be 240v because a small 110 v generator will give you 3 miles of range per hour charge at 110 volts. So now you've got to schlep a 100+ pound generator to your dead car to charge it up. All the time you've gotta worry about police telling you to push it out of the way and leave it......
 
kuririn said:
Two words.
Portable generator.
Click to expand...
LOL
Sure - going to be a SLOW charge using your 2kW portable Honda.
That's going to add 1 or 2 miles per hour of charge once you factor in the heaters.
Pure comedy.
 
cbrarick said:
Let's see here:

In my fire department we have 3 engines, a heavy ladder, a heavy rescue, a tanker and 2 pickup trucks.
we have portable generators in 2 of our trucks, and only one each. Guess what? We're not going to leave them with a EV to charge
Every truck has at least one tank with gas in it. In a major emergency where we'd need it we have a few large portable tanks with electric pumps.

Most of our city cop cars carry 5 gallon gas can.

In a emergency you aren't going to get a generator. You might get gas.

Even if you phone a friend who just happens to have a generator, how's he (or she) going to get there in a emergency? AND it's going to have to be 240v because a small 110 v generator will give you 3 miles of range per hour charge at 110 volts. So now you've got to schlep a 100+ pound generator to your dead car to charge it up. All the time you've gotta worry about police telling you to push it out of the way and leave it......
Click to expand...
FredA said:
Sure - going to be a SLOW charge using your 2kW portable Honda.
Click to expand...


Last time I checked 240 v. portable generators were available for sale to the general public.
That will give you 30 miles of added range per hour of charge.
More than enough to pull off and recharge at a power station.
The context of the discussion was refueling in an emergency evacuation.
Certainly not ideal, but I never said it was.
It's a workable alternative, people have done it before.
BTW:
https://info.oregon.aaa.com/aaa-unveils-tow-truck-capabale-of-electric-vehicle-charging/
 

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