ICEs and EVs

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
, but they've been sold a truck by how it makes them feel.
In the end, all purchase decisions are made by how the purchasers feel. Some feel good by using a rational process to make the decision, others feel good from another process.

Product has to appeal to the 4 P's to be successful, Profit, Pleasure, Power, Prestige. I maintain Tesla appeals to Prestige not Profit. How else would one explain the dismal sales of Ford and GM EV's compared to Tesla?
 
In the end, all purchase decisions are made by how the purchasers feel. Some feel good by using a rational process to make the decision, others feel good from another process.

Product has to appeal to the 4 P's to be successful, Profit, Pleasure, Power, Prestige. I maintain Tesla appeals to Prestige not Profit. How else would one explain the dismal sales of Ford and GM EV's compared to Tesla?
Better cars? Better ownership experience? IMHO “prestige” plays little part these days in Tesla sales.
 
I also question why the need for a pick up..
Unless you are a farmer, a contractor (even then, I find that can be a stretch), routinely tow a trailer (and I mean a "trailer"; 5000lbs+) or a few of the other designed uses for said truck. Yet I always see them to & from work, in a city.. and always empty.
Not everything in life is based on “need”. In fact a great many things are based on “want”. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
 
Not everything in life is based on “need”. In fact a great many things are based on “want”. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
i will very much agree...

but I will also counter that we are old enough, and we should be mature enough to justify the 'want' against the need.. Or at least weigh the potential compromises for society & our fellow man (and our kids..)
 
That's a good question. I wonder, too. Especially since there are more Teslas out there in the US than any other (maybe all others together).

I also wonder about their choice to have the PHEVs start out with a flat battery. I would never do that if I had a PHEV. It would be charged to at least 80% before it left my driveway pretty much at all times.

The article doesn't address the state of charge of the "regular" hybrids' batteries at all.

Interesting to see Hyundai/Kia models doing better than their EPA ratings. My own experience with the Soul EV we have suggests that they are more conservative about what they claim than many others (notably Tesla) with respect to miles/kWh or "MPGe".
 
I love the idea of RTR, almost as much as I realize it's impracticality and limited applicability.
For example, take iPhones. I would love to have a modular, user-replaceable (or serviceable) battery. But for that to be a reality, the entire phone would need to be redesigned, enlarged, and increase in price. Personally, I would pay more for a replaceable battery in my family's iPhones, but how many others would? Should Apple be required to accommodate my preferences? Someone else's contradictory preferences?

The argument for RTR is stronger with larger-ticket (5+ figure) items. But not entirely bulletproof either.
I like working on my cars, upto and including suspension, tranny, and engine swaps/rebuilds. But would I ever dare touch a 350V or 800V battery drivetrain on an EV (without fully discharging it, somehow) - hell NO!. If an EV value drops to <$20K in 8 years (when battery warranty runs out), and replacement battery costs more than the residual value of the car, would I replace it? Hell No. Then what's the point of insisting on RTR?

Still, I do want to have access to service manuals with all torque values for all the nuts and bolts on all my cars. A full repair manual would be even better, but the demand for those has been declining for decades. I can't even get one for my current ICE cars, never mind the EVs:
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/
*sigh*
RTR is more than just the right for you to repair your own property. It's your right to have someone else, who is not an "Authorized' repair shop repair your property at a more competitive rate. Rather than let the market determine the cost of repair, it's determined by the manufacturer through "certification" fees and licenses to repair their products. It drives up the prices for all sorts of things, including food and clothing, as now farmers can't just pull out their toolbox and repair their John Deere themselves, making it more expensive to raise the food and ultimately raising food prices. This is not capitalism. This is mercantilism and monopoly.
 
Interesting that the article mentions the push from the White House to expand EV production without mentioning the push to expand the charging infrastructure as well.
Freebeacon?
Not really evenhanded reporting is it?
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...ational-network-of-electric-vehicle-chargers/
Why would the Ford CEO put forth anything in the media which at best would suppress the demand of EV's now?
"I am driving from LA to Las Vegas and it kind of sucks"
Good thing he wasn't towing anything or had a payload in that pickup.
 
Don't know, do you have a theory?
No its bizarre. And its not an accident. Maybe he is wants to pump the brakes on some of the governments (state and feds) EV transition initiatives. He wouldn't be the first voice in the industry to express concerns.
 
I found this video that talks about the fluid cooling systems of various Tesla models. I was reading another article that I'll link later after I've studied it more but that article discussed temperature control challenges to maintain battery performance. The systems in the Tesla are fairly complex.



The channel name is weberauto and if this video doesn't show you can go to youtube and search for srraUymsT0U . Weberauto does a lot of dissection of the Tesla among other models and they show in detail the motors, gearboxes, etc. if you really want to see what is inside of one.
 
I found this video that talks about the fluid cooling systems of various Tesla models. I was reading another article that I'll link later after I've studied it more but that article discussed temperature control challenges to maintain battery performance. The systems in the Tesla are fairly complex.


Working link to video
 
Our state has had very hot temperatures this summer and it continues into September. So far this year we've had 51 days over 100 and we have maybe 3 more to come. High temperature yesterday tied a record, high temperature today appears to have tied the record, the forecast is to break records the next 2 days. Tonight our power grid came within 3% of its maximum capacity. Most of our power generation is normal powerplants but we have some wind and solar too. After 6:00 or 7:00 the solar contribution drops quite a bit, eventually to zero of course, and our high temperatures come from high pressure areas which in turn reduce wind so the power contribution from wind is pretty low. We may need to step back from EVs for a little while until somebody figures out how to generate more electricity.
 
Our state has had very hot temperatures this summer and it continues into September. So far this year we've had 51 days over 100 and we have maybe 3 more to come. High temperature yesterday tied a record, high temperature today appears to have tied the record, the forecast is to break records the next 2 days. Tonight our power grid came within 3% of its maximum capacity. Most of our power generation is normal powerplants but we have some wind and solar too. After 6:00 or 7:00 the solar contribution drops quite a bit, eventually to zero of course, and our high temperatures come from high pressure areas which in turn reduce wind so the power contribution from wind is pretty low. We may need to step back from EVs for a little while until somebody figures out how to generate more electricity.
Has your utility built any hybrid solar/battery or wind/battery farms?
When the generation of power from solar or wind diminishes the grid batteries kick in.

How about firm renewables?
New, smaller, more efficient generators that run on biodiesel or hydrogen and can be started up in minutes instead of hours.
They only need to be run to meet any deficiency in supply, not 24/7.
https://www.hawaiipublicradio.org/l...c-aims-to-transform-waiau-plant-in-pearl-cityhttps://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/03/09/amid-solar-wind-boom-heco-also-seeks-more-firm-renewables/
 
Never. It would be cheaper to run a line from my house, and electricity is not very expensive here. The shed will not use much electricity either way. I am doing it for the fun and learning, and all you tax payers will shave 30% off my bill.
 
We may need to step back from EVs for a little while until somebody figures out how to generate more electricity.

That has been addressed many times already. EVs generally charge at night when demand for electricity is low. And newer EVs can return that energy back to the grid during times of peak demand.
 
The price of new EV's is still averaging 50K based on a number I heard earlier this week, until that number drops into the 30K and under range they are out of reach of the "average" American or they are not willing to take on that debt.

That's a really important metric to watch (used car resale values), and one that will have a much larger impact than many people expect. My wife and I decided several decades ago, that borrowing money and buying new cars was a fool's game. Until we bought my wife's most recent car, my $10,000 used, 10 year old, pickup truck was the most expensive one we'd bought since we were married. Prior to that, when I was single, I borrowed from the bank to buy a one year old, leased return, 1988 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (still one of my favorite cars ever) which I paid off early. We don't take out car loans. Ever.

If EV's don't develop a healthy resale that trickles down below $10k and in some cases below $5k, there will either a) never be full market penetration, or b) great harm will fall upon persons in the lower economic classes who find that they can no longer afford cars at all.

Battery life will be a huge factor in this and that means that batteries will have to retain reasonable range even when cars are 10 or even 20 years old, or that replacement battery costs will have to fall by at least an order of magnitude.

There are a LOT of people who depend upon the availability of (sometimes total crap) sub-$5k cars. And, like it or not, much of our economy depends upon those people being able to get to work.
 
That's a really important metric to watch (used car resale values), and one that will have a much larger impact than many people expect. My wife and I decided several decades ago, that borrowing money and buying new cars was a fool's game. Until we bought my wife's most recent car, my $10,000 used, 10 year old, pickup truck was the most expensive one we'd bought since we were married. Prior to that, when I was single, I borrowed from the bank to buy a one year old, leased return, 1988 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (still one of my favorite cars ever) which I paid off early. We don't take out car loans. Ever.

If EV's don't develop a healthy resale that trickles down below $10k and in some cases below $5k, there will either a) never be full market penetration, or b) great harm will fall upon persons in the lower economic classes who find that they can no longer afford cars at all.

Battery life will be a huge factor in this and that means that batteries will have to retain reasonable range even when cars are 10 or even 20 years old, or that replacement battery costs will have to fall by at least an order of magnitude.

There are a LOT of people who depend upon the availability of (sometimes total crap) sub-$5k cars. And, like it or not, much of our economy depends upon those people being able to get to work.
I would add that many of those people rent and many multi family rental properties do not allow home charging. Multi family insurance carriers are increasingly making no home charging a requirement of insurance coverage.
 
Last edited:
That's a really important metric to watch (used car resale values), and one that will have a much larger impact than many people expect. My wife and I decided several decades ago, that borrowing money and buying new cars was a fool's game. Until we bought my wife's most recent car, my $10,000 used, 10 year old, pickup truck was the most expensive one we'd bought since we were married. Prior to that, when I was single, I borrowed from the bank to buy a one year old, leased return, 1988 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (still one of my favorite cars ever) which I paid off early. We don't take out car loans. Ever.

If EV's don't develop a healthy resale that trickles down below $10k and in some cases below $5k, there will either a) never be full market penetration, or b) great harm will fall upon persons in the lower economic classes who find that they can no longer afford cars at all.

Battery life will be a huge factor in this and that means that batteries will have to retain reasonable range even when cars are 10 or even 20 years old, or that replacement battery costs will have to fall by at least an order of magnitude.

There are a LOT of people who depend upon the availability of (sometimes total crap) sub-$5k cars. And, like it or not, much of our economy depends upon those people being able to get to work.
The US median take home income is about $50K. 50% of the American consumer brings home less than that. Many Americans are already priced out of the new car market (even if they don't know it). With the tax credit you can get Telsa 3 for about $32K + tax (theoretically). The average new car price paid in the US is over $45K. My son is ready for a new car, if he didn't live in an appartment I would suggest a Telsa Model 3. Not because its an EV, but it seems like a good automobile.
 
That's a really important metric to watch (used car resale values), and one that will have a much larger impact than many people expect. My wife and I decided several decades ago, that borrowing money and buying new cars was a fool's game. Until we bought my wife's most recent car, my $10,000 used, 10 year old, pickup truck was the most expensive one we'd bought since we were married. Prior to that, when I was single, I borrowed from the bank to buy a one year old, leased return, 1988 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe (still one of my favorite cars ever) which I paid off early. We don't take out car loans. Ever.

If EV's don't develop a healthy resale that trickles down below $10k and in some cases below $5k, there will either a) never be full market penetration, or b) great harm will fall upon persons in the lower economic classes who find that they can no longer afford cars at all.

Battery life will be a huge factor in this and that means that batteries will have to retain reasonable range even when cars are 10 or even 20 years old, or that replacement battery costs will have to fall by at least an order of magnitude.

There are a LOT of people who depend upon the availability of (sometimes total crap) sub-$5k cars. And, like it or not, much of our economy depends upon those people being able to get to work.
When we bought our Leaf used, it was something like $9K off the lot from a 2-year lease. It was a great buying experience because the dealer had something like 50 of them coming through each week, so you just told them what color and features you wanted, and they'd call you when one came through.
I would add that many of those people rent and many multi family rental properties do not allow home charging because insurance carriers are increasingly making that a condition of insurance coverage.
We're just renewing our home insurance, and I checked for EV prohibitions specifically. So far, it hasn't shown up. I did a quick Google trawl, and didn't see any stories about insurance carriers disallowing home charging. Do you have a link? I'm curious if it's a state-by-state thing or broader nationwide.
 
When we bought our Leaf used, it was something like $9K off the lot from a 2-year lease. It was a great buying experience because the dealer had something like 50 of them coming through each week, so you just told them what color and features you wanted, and they'd call you when one came through.

We're just renewing our home insurance, and I checked for EV prohibitions specifically. So far, it hasn't shown up. I did a quick Google trawl, and didn't see any stories about insurance carriers disallowing home charging. Do you have a link? I'm curious if it's a state-by-state thing or broader nationwide.
It applies to multi family (condos and apartments) complex policies and is a growing trend with insurance carriers. I used to run a multi family lending group and still do consulting. It’s a trend that we just started seeing over the last 12-months. That and making the elimination of BBQ’s a requirement for multi family insurance. There are a few carriers that are resisting the trend but they are mostly poorly rated carriers that most multi family lenders will not accept.

I suspect (don’t have first hand knowledge) that insurance carriers are beginning to make this a requirement because they don’t have firm data on the associated risks and so don’t know how to price it into insurance. It’s something that will likely go through several iterations.

As an aside, the condo complex that I live in just came out with a ban on home charging for this very reason. It was a condition of the insurance carrier for the upcoming annual renewal.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top