High Flying Cards SCUD-C Build

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Originally posted by Eric/VAl
Panels (boxes) to the bottom! :) When the Russians designed the Scud-C- they threw in an extra avionics bay, to increase warhead/flight accuracy, at the top. Real easy- need more equipment? Slap on an extra half meter or so to the missile! Gotta love that sledge hammer technology! :):)
Eric:)

Thanks for the tips Eric. I had no idea the print issue was so tricky.

And thanks for telling me the right way to orient the panels. I refer to things as to how they print out on the part. "It's a box" as opposed to the function on the real-world product "It's a panel!".

Well progress is being made on this build. Wahoo! I have been enjoying it, despite a few gremlins here and there. It's really going to be a cool looking model.

It should be flight ready pretty soon. After that, I'll have to work on the lower doo-dads, wait, I mean "control vanes, servo control boxes, rocket nozzle, etc"...;)

Jason
 
boxes doo-dads thingamooboobers- It's all good! :D
I'mgetting some good tips on to make instructions! So THANK YOU! :D
Eric- again:)lol
 
Some more progress tonight. The nose cone is coming together and I am attaching the fins to the body tube. After these steps I'll work on the conduits and recovery system. Then it is launch ready!
 
I was one of the original beta-testers for this kit, and I finally got around to flying it, just this morning. As this was just the beta version, it was plain white and didn't have all of the ornamentation of the final detailed kit.

It flew surprisingly well in a 2mph wind with a C6-5. Several onlookers were a little concerned about the strength of cardstock being used as a body tube, and others had doubts about the small size of the fins. But all doubts were laid to rest as the rocket flew perfectly straight, with a well-timed ejection at apogee.

Very nice flier in the beta version, so I can only imagine that it's going to fly equally well as a final product.

WW
 
Originally posted by wwattles
It flew surprisingly well in a 2mph wind with a C6-5. Several onlookers were a little concerned about the strength of cardstock being used as a body tube, and others had doubts about the small size of the fins. But all doubts were laid to rest as the rocket flew perfectly straight, with a well-timed ejection at apogee.
This is a common misconception about paper rockets. I still find Robert Harrington's (BobH48) comment about the "deer in the headlight" response most amusing. More exposure to, and education of, paper rockets is a great thing for rocketry.
 
If you know how thin the metal sheet of a REAL rocket really is, bear
in mind that if you build a paper model in, f.i. scale 1:96 and you use
65 pound paper ( 200 grams...is that 65# ? ), only ONE layer and no
other internal reinforcements, the paper skin will be several times thicker
than the one of the real rocket ( scale wise ) !
Rockets are very fragile things. They need to be launched in a very
smooth, slightly curved arch. If not, then due to aerodynamic loads, the
rocket will simply break and ripped to pieces. And - ofcourse -
this has happened quite often.
A flat piece of paper can not carry much load. But when folded into
specific shapes, such as a cylinder, it suddenly CAN carry a lot of weight !!
Even in scale 1:50, ordinary thin typing paper would be much thicker than
any type of sheet ever used for a rocket. Just take 50 sheets of
standard paper and see how thick it is.......

The one reason why a paper model does need to be strong, is the fact
that the ejection charge is a sudden, powerful blow, on the inside of
the cylinder. Something that does not happen with real rockets.
Unless they explode..........|-)

Cars are built out of very thin, floppy metal sheet. But once those
sheets are pressed onto round shapes, which are later welded together,
are VERY strong structure is obtained.
That's why rockets have ( internal or external ) stringers : long, U-shaped
strips of metal which greatly enhance the structural strength. The best
example is the famous Saturn V rocket.

No.... I am not surprised that paper rockets will do fine and will
survive many launches without any kind of damage. Just as long
as you launch them straight up ! ;-)

Erik.
 
Originally posted by wwattles
Several onlookers were a little concerned about the strength of cardstock being used as a body tube, and others had doubts about the small size of the fins.

One of us was even worried about the ejection charge, er, exploding the whole rocket. Oh we of little faith!

It was a great flight!
 
Great to hear that the SCUD was a good flyer. It looks like it really out to move fast and high! How high did it go on a C6-5.

te_groen31, you bring up good points about rocket design. It would take quite a boom to ruin a card model from just the ejection. Now landing in water -- that's a different story... :D

No progress on my build in the last few days. Hopefully I'll get some more done on it this week.

Jason
 
Originally posted by jjnodice
Great to hear that the SCUD was a good flyer. It looks like it really out to move fast and high! How high did it go on a C6-5.

Hard to tell how high it went - white model against a white low cloud cover. My guess would be several hundred feet - probably in the 800-900 foot range.

WW
 
Originally posted by Craig Bosworth
One of us was even worried about the ejection charge, er, exploding the whole rocket. Oh we of little faith!

It was a great flight!

I have been flying a variety of paper rockets at every CMASS launch for the last two years on everything from MMX to E9-6's so the people attending these launches just expect paper rockets to perform.

It's gotten to the point that I get kidded when I fly something other than a paper rocket.

I intend to build a Scud over the winter and have looked over the instructions and my feeling is that it's designed a lot stronger than my usual paper models. It has a double thickness outer skin and a double thickness motor/stuffer tube. Normally I would just use the double thickness outer skin without the stuffer and they handle the ejection charge just fine.
 
Originally posted by BobH48
[Snip] I intend to build a Scud over the winter and have looked over the instructions and my feeling is that it's designed a lot stronger than my usual paper models. It has a double thickness outer skin and a double thickness motor/stuffer tube. Normally I would just use the double thickness outer skin without the stuffer and they handle the ejection charge just fine.
Good point Bob.

Also note (to all), a typical kraft paper (Estes) body tube is 0.013 inch thick.

A double thickness (laminated) body tube of 65 pound cardstock is 0.5 mm (0.020 inch) thick, and the bond paper cardstock is high quality paper stock.

These scratch paper tubes are of good quality and strength for low and mid powered rockets.
 
This SCUD model and the double walled thicknesses are definitely good examples to convince the skeptics about the durability of card models.

The SCUD also has a number of internal centering rings which helps increase the rigidity of the tube sections.

It's a strong build and I'm looking forward to flying it!

Jason
 
Originally posted by wwattles
I was one of the original beta-testers for this kit, and I finally got around to flying it, just this morning. As this was just the beta version, it was plain white and didn't have all of the ornamentation of the final detailed kit.

It flew surprisingly well in a 2mph wind with a C6-5. Several onlookers were a little concerned about the strength of cardstock being used as a body tube, and others had doubts about the small size of the fins. But all doubts were laid to rest as the rocket flew perfectly straight, with a well-timed ejection at apogee.

Very nice flier in the beta version, so I can only imagine that it's going to fly equally well as a final product.

WW

Hey WW,

I forgot to ask if you have any pics of your SCUD to share. I know you said it is a beta version, but the more pics the merrier!!!

Jason
 
Unfortunately, I don't have any pics available. Also, I was unaware that the final production model has a stuffer tube. The beta version I built was just 2 pieces outer tubing (later increased to 4 because of the difficulties observed by us beta testers) with no stuffer tube. The only centering rings were the 2 that were used in the standard Estes-style motor mount. Even with that, there was plenty of strength in the body tubing, and it survived a full ejection charge with no internal damage.

WW
 
Originally posted by wwattles
Unfortunately, I don't have any pics available. Also, I was unaware that the final production model has a stuffer tube. The beta version I built was just 2 pieces outer tubing (later increased to 4 because of the difficulties observed by us beta testers) with no stuffer tube. The only centering rings were the 2 that were used in the standard Estes-style motor mount. Even with that, there was plenty of strength in the body tubing, and it survived a full ejection charge with no internal damage.

WW

Yup, the motor mount is carried throughout the model to the fourth (uppermost) body tube section.

A total of seven centering rings are distributed through the model. The rings are printed on cardstock and laminated on cardboard (from a cereal or cracker box) then hole punched to reduce weight.

Sounds like the production model is a tank compared to the beta version...

Here's a pic of a centering ring...
 
And here's the front end, showing the top centering ring. No holes to cut on this one...
 
Looks nice so far :)

I just downloaded the Al-Hussein scud, maybe I'll start on it sometimes soon...

Keep it up :)
 
Here's the long conduits. One is ready to go on the body, the other needs the ends finished. I used the Aleene's Tacky Glue on these. It really made it easier!
 
The fins are attached and I applied fillets with white glue. QUESTIONS: How do you make nice clean fillets on a paper kit??? My sloppy fillets left a discoloration...Any way to not have the white glue mess with the ink?Tips for future reference anyone???

The shock cord was attached to the nose and body using the standard tri-fold method.

Launch lugs were rolled and attached to the seam lines.

The conduits on the side are almost ready to be attached.

After that I'll add nose weight to get the proper CG then I'll give it a shot of clear coat. Then it's flight ready...

Then I can tackle the rear detail ring. I might fly it first before I do that. Am I the only one who gets go fever???

Here's the almost ready for launch SCUD-C!
 
Here's a pic of what I was talking about in the other post.
1072.gif
To a fault sometimes, I like a perfect result. I like to learn new skills anyway. Any tips? Hmmm...use less glue???
 
Originally posted by jjnodice
How do you make nice clean fillets on a paper kit??? My sloppy fillets left a discoloration...Any way to not have the white glue mess with the ink?Tips for future reference anyone???
I love that SCUD. It's a nice size paper rocket.

Fillet Tip: Clear-coat first, fillet second... With the ink coated, you can use a damp finger to apply the glue, this helps make the fillet smooth...




And yes, use less white glue... :p

Seriously, my white glue fillets never get too large, even after many, many (thin) coats.
 
Did you put any kind of a sealant onto the paper after you printed it? That should, I think, hold the colors fast. The other option is to print it on a color laser, or use a color copier that doesn't have a water-soluble ink.

Just a couple ideas. Anyone else?

WW
 
Here's a pic of what I was talking about in the other post. To a fault sometimes, I like a perfect result. I like to learn new skills anyway. Any tips? Hmmm...use less glue???

It's me Eric, New Year, New Screen Name...:)

I looked at that and thought, HUH?
I've never had that problem. I make my fillets by turning the bottom of the bottle upside down, and zipping the tip down the joints, then quickly smoothing it out with my pinky. It was never a problem. Then I thought- Wait a minute dood- (talkiing to myself) You use the EPSON brand DURA-BRITE inks that don't run form anything including a hurricane, Literally! I found pieces of paper rockets blown out of the trees after Francis, and Jean, and the printing was still intact! The rockets were trashed, but the pieces looked ok! lol:)
SO, better quality inks help, but if you aint got em, you aint got em. So I would go with the clear coat the thing and then fillet em.
Just thought I'd pop in on this...
Eric:)
 
Sounds like the consensus is "clear coat". Thanks for the tips guys. I should have done that for this build but didn't. With non-paper builds the clear coat is the last step and I haven't gotten in the habit of doing it as a first step with a paper build. I'll have to experiment with some samples. Practice should help me get it better.

Eric's point about running ink brings up a point. What kind of printers do you guys use? I have a 5+ year old HP 842C. It's an inkjet. And regarding ink, I buy the cheapest Staples generic cartridges I can get. Probably not condusive to quality prints & builds, but my budget doesn't allow anything else. :(

And Eric, you really threw me for one with your name switch.
eyebrow1qb.gif
I skimmed your email and missed your first sentence. I thought some guy in FLA was doing the same stuff as you. Two guys lobbing paper models in hurricanes? No way...I thought...:D

Jason
 
I used drafting vellum to make a fillet on a big paper rocket, then painted the fillet to match the rocket with some 50-cent craft-store acrylics.
But it was easy to match colors 'cause the rocket was black and white (Black Brant II).

Greg
 
Originally posted by C Greg
I used drafting vellum to make a fillet on a big paper rocket, then painted the fillet to match the rocket with some 50-cent craft-store acrylics.
But it was easy to match colors 'cause the rocket was black and white (Black Brant II).
Greg,
So you actually lay down a concave strip of vellum in the shape of a fillet?
That sounds interesting.
By the way, I love that paper Black Brant II. It’s on my ever growing list of “To Be Built” … grown…
 
Originally posted by jjnodice
Sounds like the consensus is "clear coat". Thanks for the tips guys. I should have done that for this build but didn't. With non-paper builds the clear coat is the last step and I haven't gotten in the habit of doing it as a first step with a paper build. I'll have to experiment with some samples. Practice should help me get it better. [Snip]
I’m still deciding which is better:
  1. Clear-coating the 8.5 x 11 inch color output first, then assembling the paper model.
  2. Building the model first, clear-coating, then adding glue fillets last.
    [/list=1] I would prefer to create glue fillets after the paper is sealed with clear-coat, but Eric’s technique should work well with a careful bead of glue.

    I would be interested to know of others’ techniques…
 
Jason,

I would be concerned with how well the glue is going to hold if you clearcoat the sheets first. The glue needs to soak in a little for strength, in my opinion. Models using the double wrap method would have this problem. I also wouldn't want the fins that are surface mounted to be glued to a sealed tube.

I never clearcoat my paper models until they're all done. I am using a Dell printer (which is really a Lexmark with a Dell nameplate) to print out my models and the ink is far from waterproof.

Mike,

My list of "models to be built" is endless.

There is always something new that I have to add onto the list and the things coming off the list are much less. I have been a slacker lately and haven't built any new paper models since the CZ-2F which was done in October.
 
Originally posted by BobH48
I have been a slacker lately and haven't built any new paper models since the CZ-2F which was done in October.
Bob:
Hmmm, I still think I am the ultimate slacker... I know you will get back to it with a fury...


Printer:
I have a Cannon 820S Bubblejet Photo printer, with six individual ink tanks. Standard CMYK, plus photo cyan and photo magenta colors.

Will print 2400 x 1200 dpi photo quality prints with some advanced MicroFine Droplet Technology, or such doohickeys…

I figure Cannon does a fine job with cameras; they should be able to figure out color printers. Except, we have a Cannon color laser at work which prints washed out colors...
 
Mike,
When you spread Elmer's on vellum it instantly makes the vellum very limp, so it will conform to the fin/body joint with a little nudgeing from a chopstick.
I'd like to know how vellum compares to Japanese tissue and other papers for strength.

The BB II has large fins which are folded up in the same way as a Midnight Express. The root edge on mine didn't leave a good flat surface to glue to the fuselage. They were pretty floppy after glueing. Well, with vellum fillets the joint is now nice and stiff.
However, my fins are warped. I would recommend reading these tips about folding large paper fins for a large Little Joe model:
https://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/scratch/little_joe_6.html

The BB II still flies, it just has a pronounced corkscrew on an E9-6. It only weighs 95g dry, so it carries only a crepe paper streamer and an 8" parachute (chute destabilizes the front of the fuselage).

Greg
 
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