Hello from Carber Energetics!

[FMarvinS]

1+ for Tommy's and Rich's comments. Given the history and lack of longevity of most motor manufacturer's, the addition of a new (reborn?) one is a welcome addition and I for one am looking forward to testing their products!

Fred, L2
KG4YGP
ICBM, Camden, SC

 

[BABAR]

I agree with you and everybody else with concern issues. What if he has a design he's waiting to patent . Or he's still trying to get it 100 percent before he produces it and does not want to show pictures . Don also said these are not the average HPR motor. Maybe he's marketing BALLS flyers. I'm not trying to argue , but both CTI and Aerotech offer head end ignition and there's no concern with them as they have been flown at research launches.

If he’s already figured this issue out (highly likely) no harm done in pointing the issue out on the forum.

if he hasn’t (highly UNLIKELY but not impossible) @Mike Haberer has done him a HUGE favor, ESPECIALLY if the plan is mass marketing to the general rocket community, which is kind of implied but not assured given Don is posting it here in this section.

no one is asking for Don to post potentially proprietary patent information here. A simple “Aware and solved, details pending.” Would be nice.

postings are kind of like emails and texts, even if you use emojis the tone is often lost. I think @Mike Haberer is just trying to help, not trying to denigrate.

 

[CPUTommy]

One, I'm not sure why yet another thread is opened on this subject. The last one was gnarly. Are we going to repeat the same arguments again, since the previously posed questions went unanswered?

Second, the existing R&R's say you can install the igniter "... in the motor only after my rocket is at the launch pad or in a designated prepping area", so none of us that followed the original thread understand how an integral igniter can easily meet them. They can't be installed when the RSO inspects the rocket, period. That means they could only be installed after RSO inspection in a designated prep area. Those exist at major events but are not a standard practice at most typical HPR club launches. Plus, the "instant on" aspect makes the potential risks higher than with existing igniters, not lower.

So, an integral igniter would require a change to both NAR and Tripoli R&R's, or would require every club launch to have a designated prep area away from the RSO/LCO table(s) and a designated distance from the away pads. The latter can be hard to do in some locations like the Midwest where most HPR flights are on fallow agricultural fields in non-summer months. Ag fields are not conducive to away prep areas much of the time, certainly not during the Spring months. At the last club launch I attended in December, a member's truck got stuck up to the axles in the mud trying to retrieve the away launch pads at the end of the day. The ground was frozen solid at 9AM and pure mud by 4PM. No one is going to drive their vehicle to an away prep area in a muddy field nor are they going to schlep their gear to one on foot. Just saying...

Last weekend there were 40 of us walking 2.5 miles ONE WAY to launch rockets...dont underestimate the power of burnt AP.

 

[CPUTommy]

"point out this issue and have Don’s company produce a great product with a fatal flaw that will require retrofitting or abandoning the design altogether."

How may I ask have you determined that the product has a fatal flaw?

What if its a revolution in motor ignition systems?

What if it lowers pricing and the other manufacturers lower there prices?

All VALID questions..

 

[CalebJ]

"point out this issue and have Don’s company produce a great product with a fatal flaw that will require retrofitting or abandoning the design altogether."

How may I ask have you determined that the product has a fatal flaw?

Valid question, and we have no information whatsoever from the future manufacturer to discuss it.

Asking relevant questions isn't out of line.
Shouting down those who ask them? Different story altogether.

 

[PayLoad]

You mean like The-Rocket-Store.com?

The bashing is pathetic. I look forward to seeing what he has to offer.

Lighten up, Francis - I already told the man I'd be first in line to purchase. That someone stole his potential website address is what I was commenting on.

 

[CPUTommy]

We want you to be happy with our motors. We want you to give us a try. Most of all, we want you to take a look at our prices. We think you're going to be extremely satisfied with our pricing structure. I won't offer prices just yet. I'll wait till we have our motors ready for release. What I will tell you is that be ready! Be ready for great motors at great prices!

Before I go any further, we have hired a retired propellant chemist who worked for a large solid motor company. He consults for us and helps us with formulas

Why are we all NOT WELCOMING this with open arms, a huge smile and a willingness to throw money at them? Why ?

 

[HHaase]

"point out this issue and have Don’s company produce a great product with a fatal flaw that will require retrofitting or abandoning the design altogether."

How may I ask have you determined that the product has a fatal flaw?

What if its a revolution in motor ignition systems?

What if it lowers pricing and the other manufacturers lower there prices?

All VALID questions..

I'm eagerly awaiting more info because an integrated head end ignition motor would be awesome for airstarts and staging. If it's a good motor and the price is affordable, I'll fly a few and give them a fair shot. And if they work out well I'll push our local motor guy to carry them.

I'm just really curious how the thing works so that I can start coming up with procedures for the club, and make sure both our launch controller and rockets are compatible. That and I wonder what the current/voltage needs of the ignitor is, and if an altimeter can light them off. If we were a Tripoli club I'd be volunteering to do some test flights as research launches, but since we're only NAR we can only fly certified motors.

My ONLY current disappointment is that the earlier thread suggested motors down into smaller sizes too. I was really hoping for some 29mm slugs for my current clustered rockets. But I can understand the business sense in focusing on a certain size range at this point.


-Hans

 

[CPUTommy]

I have 3 2-stage rockets, an almost instant on motor solves 1 of many problems.

CANT WAIT !

 

[BABAR]

I have 3 2-stage rockets, an almost instant on motor solves 1 of many problems.

CANT WAIT !

Great point! I wonder if Don's new ignition system can work both ways, for tail end and head end ignition? A NAR and Tripoli approved motor with built in head ignition would be a major if not quantum jump in two stage rocketry.

I'd say Don may have already gotten more mileage out of his post than he expected.

Sometimes some positive debate is a good thing!

 

[cerving]

Don, do you have an eta on your first offerings?

 

[Neutron95]

Can you supply any details about the performance of the motors?

IIRC, in the previous thread you said that they were optimized for performance, and I would love to see how your propellant compares to the other high performance options on the market.

I'm really interested in high performance minimum diameter designs, and a whole range of high performance motors would be great.

 

[CPUTommy]

I just watched this, it gets really interesting towards the end.. well worth the time.

 

[don carter]

Ahhh.... ye of little faith! I won't address any negative issues here because they don't warrant my time. And to those who have been supportive, thank you VERY much! I will say I don't recall having said the igniter will come "INSTALLED" with the motor. Of course that couldn't/wouldn't be safe, nor would it be legal. I think if you nattering, nabobs, of negativity will give me a chance, you'll get your chance to SEE what I have to offer.

One thing I think IS important to address is just how many "professional" type motors do you see with an "up-the-throat" igniter installed or used? I dare say not many. The last time I looked at a Sidewinder missile or a Castor motor they had an integral igniter. Not many of those had an "up-the-throat" igniter. Lmao! In my ever so humble opinion, a "head end" igniter is much more efficient than an igniter you shove up the throat. Anybody care to differ with that? If so, prove me wrong.

We're going to set the rocket world on its ear with our new igniter system, AND our prices. Just wait. Just watch. We WANT you as our customers. We WANT you to tell all you flying friends. I tend to agree with one person said in an above post. I'm probably not going to have one of these negative people as a customer anyhoo so why does it matter!!

Gotta love it!!

 

[Antares JS]

Any chance you might go smaller if business works out well? I'm hoping to start doing high power two-stage in the next year or two and would love head end ignition for the upper stages, but would prefer H or I motors for those upper stages at least for starters.

 

[CalebJ]

Ahhh.... ye of little faith! I won't address any negative issues here because they don't warrant my time. And to those who have been supportive, thank you VERY much! I will say I don't recall having said the igniter will come "INSTALLED" with the motor. Of course that couldn't/wouldn't be safe, nor would it be legal. I think if you nattering, nabobs, of negativity will give me a chance, you'll get your chance to SEE what I have to offer.

Asking questions doesn't imply little faith, it just means we have questions.
Refusing to answer them CREATES little faith.

 

[CPUTommy]

Im ready when you are... just sayin..

 

[cerving]

Ahhh.... ye of little faith! I won't address any negative issues here because they don't warrant my time. And to those who have been supportive, thank you VERY much! I will say I don't recall having said the igniter will come "INSTALLED" with the motor. Of course that couldn't/wouldn't be safe, nor would it be legal. I think if you nattering, nabobs, of negativity will give me a chance, you'll get your chance to SEE what I have to offer.

One thing I think IS important to address is just how many "professional" type motors do you see with an "up-the-throat" igniter installed or used? I dare say not many. The last time I looked at a Sidewinder missile or a Castor motor they had an integral igniter. Not many of those had an "up-the-throat" igniter. Lmao! In my ever so humble opinion, a "head end" igniter is much more efficient than an igniter you shove up the throat. Anybody care to differ with that? If so, prove me wrong.

We're going to set the rocket world on its ear with our new igniter system, AND our prices. Just wait. Just watch. We WANT you as our customers. We WANT you to tell all you flying friends. I tend to agree with one person said in an above post. I'm probably not going to have one of these negative people as a customer anyhoo so why does it matter!!

Gotta love it!!

I'm assuming that part of your NAR/TRA/CAR motor certification is going to be to vet the igniter, since it's "different" than what the codes were written around...

 

[don carter]

Meethinks most of those here who have negative responses aren't going to buy motors from me anyway so that's probably a moot issue. You already have your motor supplier. But no worries. It's-a-gonna-be-okay. I promise! I'm laughing at all the negativity! You really gotta love it! I'm a positive person and quite frankly, for those of you who don't want my motors, don't think you'll EVER buy my motors, I simply say I'm sorry you won't give us a chance.

Rest assured folks. Our motors WILL be certified by the NAR. Step back. Take a deep breath, and I promise, you're gonna be okay. I DO think you should try being positive. You'll feel much better at the end of the day!

 

[PayLoad]

Meethinks most of those here who have negative responses aren't going to buy motors from me anyway so that's probably a moot issue. You already have your motor supplier. But no worries. It's-a-gonna-be-okay. I promise! I'm laughing at all the negativity! You really gotta love it! I'm a positive person and quite frankly, for those of you who don't want my motors, don't think you'll EVER buy my motors, I simply say I'm sorry you won't give us a chance.

Rest assured folks. Our motors WILL be certified by the NAR. Step back. Take a deep breath, and I promise, you're gonna be okay. I DO think you should try being positive. You'll feel much better at the end of the day!

A word of advice (from someone who WILL buy from you)

SHHHHHHHH........

 

[Spitfire222]

I don't fly HPR, nor do I ever plan on flying motors the size you plan on selling. I have no skin in this game, so this is just my unsolicited observation of how communication has been going on between a vendor and his potential future customers: They are asking legitimate questions and expressing concerns, not because they want you to fail, but from my perspective, because they want you to succeed. And you respond by belittling them, calling them "negative", and doing nothing or providing no additional information/explanation to assuage the points they've brought up. From the beginning, you've only provided fantastic promises and claims with nothing concrete to back them up (other than some people providing vague stories of someone flying one or two of your motors years ago).

It would have been better to announce your venture here when you could provide a website, some products, or at the very least some photos to back up your claims. Something, anything!

I've never been in sales, but here, let me try providing a generic response that comes across better:
"Dear future customers. First of all, thank you for you enthusiastic interest in our future products. We understand your concerns, and we will have more details in the near future to gain your confidence that our products will perform to our high standards of quality and cost. We appreciate your patience while we get up and running, and look forward to doing business with you soon."

 

[don carter]

Hey hobie 1 dog. Cool about being Extra Class ham. I haven't gotten that far yet. Just General Class here. How long have you been a ham? Since 1983 here. Are you a contester, rag chewer, etc.? Just curious.

Excellent advice PayLoad and I think I'll jus take it!!!

 

[CPUTommy]

Chill....

 

[heada]

If I understand you correctly, the igniter wires will exit the motor through the forward bulkhead, correct? If so, then the only use I can see is as upper stages in a multi-stage configuration. And that is a market that has needed some attention but at the same time, that market is limited to the very top end of L2 and L3 flyers.

If the igniter wires don't exit the forward bulkhead, can you explain or show where/how they do exit the motor?

I fly motors by every vendor, AT, CTI, Loki. I have EX cases from 13mm to 75mm. I try to support all rocketry vendors that I can. I fly 3FNC, clusters, multi-stage, etc. If you provide a better product, I'll at least give it a go but belittling people, potential customers or no, is a good way to drive people away. You're doing yourself and your company a disservice by replying in such a manner. Some basic product information would help your case immensely.

 

[lawndartman]

I have cash in hand. Bring it on brother. I'd fly that if I were you....

 

[mrwalsh85]

Don, do you have an eta on your first offerings?

Additionally, do you have an eta on when you might be able to share some photos, even videos and/or thrust curves? I'd be interested especially since I'm getting into airstarts and clusters.

Regarding the forward HEI wiring 'issue', umbilical cords are a thing on the real deal, and they can be on our rockets as well.. May be difficult to adapt to existing rockets, but easy to integrate into new-builds.

 

[mo2872]

Is this deja vous? I think I’ve read this thread before, verbatim, even. /sarc :eyeroll:

Don, define “integral igniter” as you are using it......the “nabobs”(that you continue to alienate) are taking that to mean it is pre-installed in the motor, and thus causing all the angst.
If you TRULY want to settle the perceived negativity, providing that simple answer would probably cause a lot of “ahhh, cool!” respondents.

Either way, not my circus, not my monkeys, so carry on.

 

[Jmhepworth]

These motors are intriguing, especially in upper stages. It’s always a challenge for me to fish the starter wire through a brake line in the sustainer. Head end ignition makes staging easier. And it makes minimum diameter sustainers even easier. But like many others, I’m wondering how it complies with the safety rules. I don’t see it as negative to inquire. None of us wants to have a rocket ready to go, only to get sent away from the RSO because the igniter is installed too early. And I haven’t figured out how to change my checklist to install it at the pad. Looking forward to more information when it’s available. Like many others, I have my favorite motor manufacturer (built right here in Utah), but I like competition. It will advance the hobby and make the guys from Cedar City even better.

 

[Mike Haberer]

A old motor company is coming back from the dead with high power SU motors that will be amazing for our hobby. But yet the only complaint is a pre installed Ignitor ......
90 percent of y'all need to just step off the high horse and welcome Don back . You will never buy his products so why shame his products.

It's not a complaint, nor a shaming, it's an observation based on the common understanding of the rule regarding ignitor installation. A motor with an "integral" ignitor (which has never been commercially done in the past) is a significant change that was not accounted for in the design of the existing safety protocols. The reason igniters are not installed until on the pad and upright is for safety. An integral igniter would seem to be a safety issue. What are the mitigating safety measures that negate the safety issue? That is what everyone is really getting at. The answer is not obvious for those of us that do buy and fly HPR motors. Plus, Don said above that he never said the "integral" igniter "comes installed in the motor". OK. That's not confusing.

Don, those of us that do HPR are not nattering nabobs of negativity. That comment is insulting and quite frankly p****s me off. I have an engineering degree and a deep IT background including systems analysis. The questions being asked are valid.

Since we are asking valid questions from our standpoint, a good answer would be "We are having discussions with the certifying organizations (NAR, CAR and Tripoli) and the concerns you are expressing are being addressed to the satisfaction of those governing bodies." Now, that would provide some level of confidence in your response, as opposed to calling us nattering nabobs of negativity. Have you been discussing this advance in motor tech with the governing bodies and are they on board? Not asking for trade secrets here, just some assurances that the business plan covers the regulatory aspects of the product as well as the tech side.

In the end, if you build a better mouse trap at a better price, we'll all buy it, despite the insults. IF....

 

[rcktnut]

Regarding the forward HEI wiring 'issue', umbilical cords are a thing on the real deal, and they can be on our rockets as well.. May be difficult to adapt to existing rockets, but easy to integrate into new-builds.

That is problem #2 of concern after the safety code. I don't get it, if you have 2 of the same igniters placed at the correct position whether one is inserted from the rear or integrated at the head end what is the difference once they ignite? They start out at the same location, should have same results as far as igniting the propellant.