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UhClem

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One thing I think IS important to address is just how many "professional" type motors do you see with an "up-the-throat" igniter installed or used? I dare say not many.
ATACMS and LOSAT to name two that I have seen.
 

cerving

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That is problem #2 of concern after the safety code. I don't get it, if you have 2 of the same igniters placed at the correct position whether one is inserted from the rear or integrated at the head end what is the difference once they ignite? They start out at the same location, should have same results as far as igniting the propellant.
The issue is that the safety code explicitly calls for the igniter to be installed on the pad with the rocket in a vertical position. Maybe their "integral igniter" can fulfill that requirement... no details yet, so I'm reserving judgment at the moment.
 

don carter

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21st Century rocket motors! That's what we here at CARBER ENERGETICS plan on introducing you to in the way of solid propellant rocket motors. High solids! Integral igniters! And prices that will knock your socks off! Reserve judgement friends! You're going to like what you see! We promise! And we're not offering motor frills. Just straight solid composite propellant in filament wound fiberglass casing with graphite nozzles. And with over 35 years of solid motor experience coupled with our retired propellant chemist who worked for a known propellant company, we truly think you're going to like us! K through O class motors with larger motors available IF you need them.
 

mo2872

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21st Century rocket motors! That's what we here at CARBER ENERGETICS plan on introducing you to in the way of solid propellant rocket motors. High solids! Integral igniters! And prices that will knock your socks off! Reserve judgement friends! You're going to like what you see! We promise! And we're not offering motor frills. Just straight solid composite propellant in filament wound fiberglass casing with graphite nozzles. And with over 35 years of solid motor experience coupled with our retired propellant chemist who worked for a known propellant company, we truly think you're going to like us! K through O class motors with larger motors available IF you need them.
Another useless post. This thread is headed for deletion, just like your first one.

NILBOG alert! Don’t feed the troll!
 

cerving

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Step inside, hello! We've a most amazing show!
You'll enjoy it all we know
Step inside! Step inside!
- Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, Karn Evil 9 First Impression Part 1
 

neil_w

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Sincere questions for Mr. Carter: You've made big promises which sound great but provided no details of any significance. Exactly what sort of response were you hoping to get here? Why don't you just wait until you have some actual data to offer and/or a website that you can point people to? This whole situation confuses me.
 

cbrarick

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How you get past NFPA 1127 4.13.5? Just saying, you'd need to have a change in the NFPA requirements. Good luck there!
 

Mike Haberer

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Mr. Carter, you may want to take a look at this thread - https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/head-end-ignition-for-airstarts.137895/

It specifically discusses the issues with Head End Ignition (HEI), the inherent additional risks and the failed attempts to get HEI motors certified (attempted by Loki). Here is a key sentence summarizing the effort - "Loki designed a head end setup, but could not get certification even though it proved reliable. My guess is that TRA does not want these to ever be something flown outside research rules."

Any and all HEI usage is considered research under Tripoli rules and as such follow the strictest safety protocols. In general, only the most advanced L2/L3 flyers use HEI for air-starts of multi-stage HP rockets. If you read the entire thread the safety concerns and the difficulty of implementing HEI are apparent. If you believe you can make an HEI motor for the general rocketry community that can be easily certified, this thread says otherwise and directly speaks, in detail, to the concerns that have been pointed out be me and others in this thread.
 

Mike Haberer

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21st Century rocket motors! That's what we here at CARBER ENERGETICS plan on introducing you to in the way of solid propellant rocket motors. High solids! Integral igniters! And prices that will knock your socks off! Reserve judgement friends! You're going to like what you see! We promise! And we're not offering motor frills. Just straight solid composite propellant in filament wound fiberglass casing with graphite nozzles. And with over 35 years of solid motor experience coupled with our retired propellant chemist who worked for a known propellant company, we truly think you're going to like us! K through O class motors with larger motors available IF you need them.
OK, now this sounds like a carnival hawker, AKA, a troll. Admins, please delete this thread...
 

Mike Haberer

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How you get past NFPA 1127 4.13.5? Just saying, you'd need to have a change in the NFPA requirements. Good luck there!
Thanks for posting, this is the core basis for the NAR/Tripoli rules. That is undoubtedly why TRA would not certify Loki's effort, it would require federal regulation changes. Buy the book Large and Dangerous Rocket Ships to understand what it took to get the HPR regulations defined that are currently in place. That is not a can of worms you want to open. Now you have to deal with the Feds. Good luck with that. Can you spell DOA? And that, as they say, is a wrap...
 

heada

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Thanks for posting, this is the core basis for the NAR/Tripoli rules. That is undoubtedly why TRA would not certify Loki's effort, it would require federal regulation changes. Buy the book Large and Dangerous Rocket Ships to understand what it took to get the HPR regulations defined that are currently in place. That is not a can of worms you want to open. Now you have to deal with the Feds. Good luck with that. Can you spell DOA? And that, as they say, is a wrap...
NFPA is not government, it is a private org. Most states have adopted NFPA as their codes and so have the force of law but they themselves are not law. They can and have been changed in the past. Both NAR and TRA have members on the board as well as some of the motor manufacturers.

Put a proposal together and submit it to either NAR or TRA for a change and if they agree, it can be submitted to NFPA for review and vote. That is likely the only way HEI is going to be allowed at non-research launches.
 

Mike Haberer

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NFPA is not government, it is a private org. Most states have adopted NFPA as their codes and so have the force of law but they themselves are not law. They can and have been changed in the past. Both NAR and TRA have members on the board as well as some of the motor manufacturers.

Put a proposal together and submit it to either NAR or TRA for a change and if they agree, it can be submitted to NFPA for review and vote. That is likely the only way HEI is going to be allowed at non-research launches.
My bad, you are right. Yet and still, not easy to do. It still opens a can of worms, or a Pandora's box. NFPA 1127 4.13.5 is dirt simple. A revised rule for HEI would be complex. Can. Of. Worms. NAR and Tripoli are very careful about the safety image of the hobby. It would not take much in terms of a serious incident or two to raise the specter of safety to the unflinching eye of some politician wanting to find an issue to make a name for themselves. The entire hobby could go down the tubes. Then what would I do with all of my stuff?
 

don carter

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heada. That IS correct. the NFPA does not governmental power. NONE. ZERO. NADA. As you have noted heada, most (but not all) states have adopted their codes. The last time I looked, there are NO NFPA cops. Their codes are NOT law. People like to THINK the NFPA has all sorts of power, but in reality, they DON'T. Being a professional firefighter for 22 years in a major city, I figured that out years ago. The NFPA is NOT, I repeat NOT a governmental agency. It is a non-profit organization. Governments use the the NFPA code as their law BUT, THE NFPA can't make rules or laws that we have to obey. The NFPA is a citizen run organization. The NFPA has NO authority. Just google NFPA and you'll find this out.
 

heada

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NFPA has no enforcement but if your state has adopted NFPA regs as law, you can bet that the fire marshal can enforce them.

Further, NAR and TRA base their safety codes and certification process directly from NFPA. If you want to have either NAR or TRA certify your motor for commercial use, you must abide by their certification process which is NFPA. You can't just decide to ignore NFPA and expect to have them certify your motor.
 

don carter

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Glad you noted that the NFPA has NO enforcement capability. Seems like you may be the ONLY one around here who knows that...

Oh I forgot. There's me. lol!
 

heada

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NFPA has no need for an enforcement as any enforcement needed would be done by the police by direction of the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction, i.e. the fire marshal) but even if they decide not to enforce it, the argument is moot since the certification bodies (NAR and TRA) have also adopted them into their codes and so in order to have them certify a motor, that motor must abide by their codes which is NFPA.

There's no such thing as a free lunch and you can't do an end-run around NFPA if you want to sell certified commercial motors.
 

hobie1dog

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Hey hobie 1 dog. Cool about being Extra Class ham. I haven't gotten that far yet. Just General Class here. How long have you been a ham? Since 1983 here. Are you a contester, rag chewer, etc.? Just curious.
I took the 3 tests the same day but missed passing the extra class by three questions, so I went to the Dayton Hamvention and retook the extra class passing it with zero mistakes and in 12 minutes. I only got a ham radio license because they required me to have one to buy the Telemetry device (which I never bought). I got my ham license back in 2013 and have not shot off a rocket since.:rolleyes: I hate contesting as there is no such thing as an equal competition, especially in ham radio. strictly Ragchewing is the only thing I am interested in. Trying to see how many plaques and awards that are hanging on your wall is nothing more than social masturbation. I have a QRZ page with a bio and pictures.
 

don carter

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Hobie. Yep, I can't stand contesting either. Makes me tired! LOL! I do love ragchewing. I have a 1500 watt amp but I don't use it very often. I usually pound the brass. That's my favorite mode. Too many pencil necks out there. I try to avoid 80 meters just because of that. I can usually be found on 40 in the CW area where the new hams are trying to help them out with their CW. It took me so long to learn Morse Code. But once I learned it, I love it now.
 

hobie1dog

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Hobie. Yep, I can't stand contesting either. Makes me tired! LOL! I do love ragchewing. I have a 1500 watt amp but I don't use it very often. I usually pound the brass. That's my favorite mode. Too many pencil necks out there. I try to avoid 80 meters just because of that. I can usually be found on 40 in the CW area where the new hams are trying to help them out with their CW. It took me so long to learn Morse Code. But once I learned it, I love it now.
What's your call sign? there are four people named Don Carter in the qrz database and none of them have any information on their qrz page
 

don carter

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Hobie. My name is "Kenneth" D. Carter. Middle name is Donavon. I go by Don.
 

heada

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Don - can you confirm that the igniter wires exit the motor via the forward bulkhead? This would confirm it's ideal use as an upper stage motor vs a first stage booster motor.
 
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