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Banzai88

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I'm kind of surprised to see so many rocketeers that are into guns. I guess, in the USA, I shouldn't be. Guns are near and dear to our hearts, though there are a lot of people that think they are inherently evil. I know people that wouldn't enter a house if they knew there was a gun inside.
Bullets are expensive. Driving to a range is inconvenient. Loud noises, next to my head, make my hand unsteady. I do most of my shooting in my family room now. I have quite a few pellet guns, but airsoft guns are ridiculously cheap to shoot and surprisingly accurate, at close range. I like to put airsoft BBs on top of a golf tee and shoot them off. I give myself extra points if I don't hit the tee.
9k.jpg


Some of us just shoot quietly! CZ Scorpion SBR with an Omega 9K tucked in the handguard!
 

Pem Tech

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The main difference between guns and rockets is one goes mostly vertical and the others goes mostly horizontal. Other than that, it’s putting a propellant into a chamber and igniting. Same means, different result.

The learning curve is different. Start with BB gun, progress to a .22, then up to an AR or pistol. Maybe it’s not that different...
It isn't that I disagree with you but I would like to add a minor variation on the definitions of Guns and Rockets. The way I see it, the main difference between guns and rockets is that rockets are the product of a hobby and not intended for other uses. Firearms, on the other hand, are a tool that are part of hobbies (recreational shooting, hunting, competition, collection etc...) or defensive/offensive deployment and potentially used for application of deadly force.
Not arguing, just presenting an unsolicited opinion.

Now back to out regularly scheduled thread.
;)
 

Pem Tech

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rfjustin

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Beautiful AR you have there. How do you like the ACOG? I've looked at them in gun shops but never tried one on a firearm. And boy, are they pricey! Specifically the Tritium equipped models.
They are pricey, but the glass, clarity, and functionality cannot be beat. They are awesome, and worth every penny IMHO. I'm lucky to have (3), none of which will ever be sold:
Trijicon ACOG 4x32mm - Green ACSS Aurora Reticle (Green)
Trijicon ACOG 4x32mm - Green Crosshair (for 300 blackout)
Trijicon ACOG 1.5x16 - Green ACSS CQB-M5

The one on the shooting bench this week was the 300 blackout. I mainly needed to test out a new buffer spring from NEMO arms. I was not getting reliable cycling of subsonic rounds. Good to go now! :)
 

Banzai88

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SBR'd AND Suppressed? :)
Yes. Colloquially known as a Two Stamp Tramp. Often displayed on 2 Stamp Tuesdays! I've been in the industry for about 30 years, had/have many many different Form 1 and Form 4 toys!

With E-File Form 1s for SBRs and home made cans, and the $200 stamp for Form 4s from the dealer.....these things are the BEST value in the firearms industry in our lifetime.

There's a metric butt ton of mis- and dis-information out there on the internet AND at dealers. If you can pass a background check on a 4473, you can legally own a Form 1/Form 4 item as long as it's legal in your state.

.....and it's NOTHING like John Wick or Call of Duty..............although some cans/gun/ammo combinations get close to being nearly silent, but it's VERY situational, and almost impossible, within limits, with centerfire high power rifle cartridges. An example of stupid quiet, though: I have one .22LR combo that you can cover the sound of the shot with a medium volume cough or sneeze! I have a 300BO SBR with subs and a good can that's almost that quiet as well.

Industry leading centerfire cans are available for under $350, and rimfire for under $200......plus the tax stamp ($200) for something that will outlast our great great grandchildren, and even if you don't do a trust can transfer to your heirs for $5/each.

Individual transfer wait times vary from as little as 12 weeks to as much as 18 months.....with Z.E.R.O. rhyme or reason as to the wait time. Trusts, if that's your preference, can be set up for under $100 that will cover ANTYING that you care to add to it for the duration of your time above dirt.
 
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rfjustin

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A nice clean well lit range. Nice gear. Don't see to many indoor ranges that can take rifle rounds. 15 yards?
I have two modern ranges near me, the one pictured above allows pistol caliber carbines and rifle rounds <2000 fps. So subsonic 300 blackout is good to go, but not supersonic. That range does NOT allow 223/556.

The other (even better range) allows everything up to 300 win mag, but that range is a bit more spendy, and longer drive. It's nice to have many options indoor and out here in WI. :)
 

Not Quite Nominal

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The main difference between guns and rockets is one goes mostly vertical and the others goes mostly horizontal. Other than that, it’s putting a propellant into a chamber and igniting. Same means, different result.

The learning curve is different. Start with BB gun, progress to a .22, then up to an AR or pistol. Maybe it’s not that different...
The main difference between guns and rockets is that I can find rocket motors right now.
 

DRAGON64

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So, I own a number of firearms, except for a shotgun or an AR15. I thought I might seek out my first Armalite, what might you all recommend? I believe I would prefer more of a full size like an M16A2 or M16A3 variant. I ask, because if you really start to investigate, it is hard to find a "good" starting point, as there is just so much info out there on the platform. Can you say "Analysis Paralysis"?

Oh, and to be clear, I'm not looking for a shotgun right now... :D
 

rfjustin

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So, I own a number of firearms, except for a shotgun or an AR15. I thought I might seek out my first Armalite, what might you all recommend? I believe I would prefer more of a full size like an M16A2 or M16A3 variant. I ask, because if you really start to investigate, it is hard to find a "good" starting point, as there is just so much info out there on the platform. Can you say "Analysis Paralysis"?

Oh, and to be clear, I'm not looking for a shotgun right now... :D
Yikes... that's a lot of room for many recommendations. I would not get hung up on one specific brand, they all go bang the same, but there are some tips/tricks that can make your life easier. Armalite makes great stuff, so does Colt, Daniel Defense, Noveske, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, and on and on. What the intended primary use? Are you trying to make this a 1 and done AR? What's the top end or your budget for the rifle and glass?
 

DRAGON64

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To be clearer, I was referring to Armalite as in Rifle (AR) not the brand, sorry for the confusion... so many people think that the AR in AR15 stands for assault rifle.

1: More target oriented than Plinking
2: $700 - $1000 budget
3: 223
4: not one and done per se, as there are just too many options to change out that allows intended purpose to be modified.
5: Not home defense, as I have a revolver for that purpose... may opt for a special purpose shotgun for that job.
 

Banzai88

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ETA: Asking about AR15s RAPIDLY almost always devolves into a Ford/Chevy/Dodge debate.

With $1000 budget, you can get a fairly nice piece. LOTS of folks like the PSA offerings, although the logs at my gunsmith show that's an 'iffy' proposition when it comes to longevity/reliability. S&W and Ruger would do you well. Colt is stupid money at no better quality for no good reason. Used to be the ABCDs, Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS.....but now with so many forged lowers and AMAZING CNC machines, a crappy lower today is STILL better than some of the BEST lowers that we had just 15 years ago......stripped lowers that we paid $150 for then that are going for $69 today! Anyone here remember the purple Bushmasters?

At this point, until you're spending Noveske money, almost all of the mid-grade guns have something good to offer. Used to be if it wasn't 1/7 twist and chrome lined, it wasn't a serious market contender, but with all the different coatings available today, there's almost too much to make sense of it all......and a 1/7 twist chrome lined .223/5.56 is still a good 'starting point' into the AR world that will outlast your grand kids.

Decide on if you want a 20" or 16" carbine, Iron sights or optics, and go from there. Literally EVERYTHING on an AR can be changed out in under 30 minutes start to finish....so the lower and the barrel matter more than anything else. In mid grades, you're going to get your money's worth, pretty much. Upper change overs are two push pins and 30 seconds, so many folks start with one 'gun' and later purchase another upper....then hunt for a complete lower to have two guns! Then lather, rinse, repeat....until you have to convince your wife that you need another safe just for the ARs (but that's another discussion, ask me how I know!)

Based on your criteria, I'd go 20" flat top rifle stock.....and scope it. You can EASILY end up spending 2X more on glass and a mount than you paid for the rifle, though (and it's worth it!)

Wanna top out your budget? AeroPrecision offers AMAZING value. Some of the best barrels, and hands down the best finishes that I've handled in nearly 30 years of shooting/buying/building AR15s.

And the LaRue MBT is the best $79 upgrade you can buy for an AR short of a $250 Geissele SSA-E.
 
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rfjustin

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ETA: Asking about AR15s RAPIDLY almost always devolves into a Ford/Chevy/Dodge debate.

With $1000 budget, you can get a fairly nice piece. LOTS of folks like the PSA offerings, although the logs at my gunsmith show that's an 'iffy' proposition when it comes to longevity/reliability. S&W and Ruger would do you well. Colt is stupid money at no better quality for no good reason. Used to be the ABCDs, Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS.....but now with so many forged lowers and AMAZING CNC machines, a crappy lower today is STILL better than some of the BEST lowers that we had just 15 years ago......stripped lowers that we paid $150 for then that are going for $69 today! Anyone here remember the purple Bushmasters?

At this point, until you're spending Noveske money, almost all of the mid-grade guns have something good to offer. Used to be if it wasn't 1/7 twist and chrome lined, it wasn't a serious market contender, but with all the different coatings available today, there's almost too much to make sense of it all......and a 1/7 twist chrome lined .223/5.56 is still a good 'starting point' into the AR world that will outlast your grand kids.

Decide on if you want a 20" or 16" carbine, Iron sights or optics, and go from there. Literally EVERYTHING on an AR can be changed out in under 30 minutes start to finish....so the lower and the barrel matter more than anything else. In mid grades, you're going to get your money's worth, pretty much. Upper change overs are two push pins and 30 seconds, so many folks start with one 'gun' and later purchase another upper....then hunt for a complete lower to have two guns! Then lather, rinse, repeat....until you have to convince your wife that you need another safe just for the ARs (but that's another discussion, ask me how I know!)

Based on your criteria, I'd go 20" flat top rifle stock.....and scope it. You can EASILY end up spending 2X more on glass and a mount than you paid for the rifle, though (and it's worth it!)

Wanna top out your budget? AeroPrecision offers AMAZING value. Some of the best barrels, and hands down the best finishes that I've handled in nearly 30 years of shooting/buying/building AR15s.

And the LaRue MBT is the best $79 upgrade you can buy for an AR short of a $250 Geissele SSA-E.
LOTS of good info here!
 

rfjustin

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To be clearer, I was referring to Armalite as in Rifle (AR) not the brand, sorry for the confusion... so many people think that the AR in AR15 stands for assault rifle.

1: More target oriented than Plinking
2: $700 - $1000 budget
3: 223
4: not one and done per se, as there are just too many options to change out that allows intended purpose to be modified.
5: Not home defense, as I have a revolver for that purpose... may opt for a special purpose shotgun for that job.
I would recommend the Ruger MPR. I paid 650 for mine in 2018. https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/199005

I would change out the charging handle for something more substantial, and you may want to consider a Larue MBT. Like Banzai88 said, it is an awesome trigger for the money. I have (3) Ruger's, all 3 have the MBT installed. :)
 

rklapp

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For targets, you’ll need a good 16-18x scope. The general advice is that you should spend more than an average monthly child support payment. If you don’t know how much that might be, then you’ll probably be fine.

Get a non adjustable rectangular stock. The A2 is fine but a flat bottom stock will allow the rifle to recoil straight back when shooting those 77gr SMK with 23gr powder.

If you can build a level 5 rocket, you can probably build your own AR. Get a stripped Anderson lower receiver, parts kit, and an average upper. There are many many YouTube videos. When you start getting more confident in your skills, swap out the barrel for a $300 tack hammer that puts 3 bullets into 1 hole.
 

OverTheTop

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If you are looking at scopes spend more dollars on one with a bigger exit pupil if you can. You will appreciate the ease of eye position in the field. If you spend less $ and get one with a smaller exit pupil you will always be wishing you spent the extra money up front. Ask me how I know. This is particularly important at the higher magnifications if you get a zoom scope.
 

rklapp

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If you are looking at scopes spend more dollars on one with a bigger exit pupil if you can. You will appreciate the ease of eye position in the field. If you spend less $ and get one with a smaller exit pupil you will always be wishing you spent the extra money up front. Ask me how I know. This is particularly important at the higher magnifications if you get a zoom scope.
I wouldn’t think this is important for benchrest shooting but more so for hunting. I have a Vortex Diamondback 4-16x42 which works fine for me against paper. YMMV
 

OverTheTop

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I wouldn’t think this is important for benchrest shooting but more so for hunting. I have a Vortex Diamondback 4-16x42 which works fine for me against paper. YMMV
I would agree with you on this. I don't shoot benchrest, just usually out in the bush, either vermin or targets. When I am deciding whether to take the nose off the rabbit, or the entire head, off I wish every time I had spent more on the scope. Cranked out to x18 the exit pupil is quite small on the scope I have.
 

rfjustin

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Amusing short story from last weekend... I was testing a final tweak to my 300 blackout AR, and a young lady and her husband set up in the lane just to my right. This young lady was as proud as proud could be to be playing with her favorite AR... a 50 beowulf by Alexander Arms. She told me that she saw it once at her LGS and decided she had to have one. The massive muzzle break makes it look like a 50 BMG. She was kind and let me shoot it, quite the bark! I didn't have the heart to tell her whoever sold her the ACOG on its sold her a fake one. :mad:

Looked a lot like this one:
Capture.JPG
 

rklapp

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Those tanker MB will knock my hat off when they’re next to me. It’s the way the air vents are pointed.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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I bought my first firearm a few weeks ago. I’ve never been a “gun person”, but I’ve also never had a problem with guns, and I’ve enjoyed shooting with friends when they’ve invited me. But I’ve never really considered buying one, because my eyesight isn’t good enough to make target shooting on a range much fun, there aren’t many places to plink around here, and I’ve never been much concerned about home defense. If I owned a gun for recreation, it would maybe get used once a year to blast cans or water jugs while camping, which is fun, but not a real pressing need.

I changed my mind because this year has been bonkers, and I‘ve seen a few current events that raised my concerns about security, so I figured if I was ever going to get a gun for recreation, maybe ahead of the apocalypse might be a good time.

So I decided on a shotgun, because they are fun to shoot, and I figured a shotgun would be good for purposes of, “Git of my property! Go on, now! GIT!” I started looking around June or maybe July, and there was almost nothing to be found at any of the local gun shops except for maybe a few extremely fancy and expensive trap and skeet guns. I spent a couple weeks checking Big Five, Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, Sportsman’s Warehouse, and a local shop called Guns Fishing and Other Stuff. Lol. Silly name. But that guy at Guns Fishing told me, “You know you’re about five months late, right?“ Apparently so.

After a few weeks of that, I placed an order with a shop that guaranteed I could cancel any time before the gun was delivered to the shop, but they gave me no ETA. And I also set up notifications on the Sportsman’s warehouse website for about a dozen models of security type shotguns and a few models of Mossberg 500 in hunting styles.

It took about 3 weeks to receive a notification from Sportsman’s that a 12 gauge Mossberg 500 all-purpose hunting model with a 28” barrel had come available. That was not the model I really wanted, but I decided to take it and cancel the other order that still had no ETA. And I placed a separate order with a separate vendor for a 20” barrel that would be more practical for my purposes. And shorter barrels are pretty hard to come by too. Nobody anywhere seemed to have 18.5” security barrels, and what I eventually found was a 20” vent rib, which was delivered pretty quickly.

After ordering the shotgun, it took another couple of weeks for it to be delivered to my semi-local store. And then the whole state caught fire, and the air quality became dangerously bad, and I had a minor health problem, so it took me a couple of weeks to get to the store and start the paperwork. I passed the firearm safety cert test and passed the background check and picked the gun up about 10 days later.

It seems like a decent shotgun. I have not been able to actually shoot it yet. The local ranges are ether closed or open on a very limited basis right now due to the pandemic. Most are open only to club members and are not allowing novices or holding classes. With the high fire danger, you can’t shoot on public lands within a few hundred miles. I’d like to pattern the gun and practice handling it, but I don’t see a good opportunity for awhile. I had a demonstration of the gun when I picked it up at the store, so I know the basic operation. I have used a shotgun before, but it was a long time ago. I’ve watched many videos. And I bought some snap caps to practice loading and other operations. But I’d really like to do the real thing soon.

The ammo situation is tight. There were lots of bird shot options, and I got a few boxes. But there was only one box of buckshot when I picked up the gun. The clerk actually told me there wasn’t any and was surprised to see a box on the shelf. So I got the last one. No slugs at all.

So that’s my shotgun purchase story. It’s a crazy time right now.
 

n27sb

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I bought my first firearm a few weeks ago. I’ve never been a “gun person”, but I’ve also never had a problem with guns, and I’ve enjoyed shooting with friends when they’ve invited me. But I’ve never really considered buying one, because my eyesight isn’t good enough to make target shooting on a range much fun, there aren’t many places to plink around here, and I’ve never been much concerned about home defense. If I owned a gun for recreation, it would maybe get used once a year to blast cans or water jugs while camping, which is fun, but not a real pressing need.

I changed my mind because this year has been bonkers, and I‘ve seen a few current events that raised my concerns about security, so I figured if I was ever going to get a gun for recreation, maybe ahead of the apocalypse might be a good time.

So I decided on a shotgun, because they are fun to shoot, and I figured a shotgun would be good for purposes of, “Git of my property! Go on, now! GIT!” I started looking around June or maybe July, and there was almost nothing to be found at any of the local gun shops except for maybe a few extremely fancy and expensive trap and skeet guns. I spent a couple weeks checking Big Five, Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dicks, Sportsman’s Warehouse, and a local shop called Guns Fishing and Other Stuff. Lol. Silly name. But that guy at Guns Fishing told me, “You know you’re about five months late, right?“ Apparently so.

After a few weeks of that, I placed an order with a shop that guaranteed I could cancel any time before the gun was delivered to the shop, but they gave me no ETA. And I also set up notifications on the Sportsman’s warehouse website for about a dozen models of security type shotguns and a few models of Mossberg 500 in hunting styles.

It took about 3 weeks to receive a notification from Sportsman’s that a 12 gauge Mossberg 500 all-purpose hunting model with a 28” barrel had come available. That was not the model I really wanted, but I decided to take it and cancel the other order that still had no ETA. And I placed a separate order with a separate vendor for a 20” barrel that would be more practical for my purposes. And shorter barrels are pretty hard to come by too. Nobody anywhere seemed to have 18.5” security barrels, and what I eventually found was a 20” vent rib, which was delivered pretty quickly.

After ordering the shotgun, it took another couple of weeks for it to be delivered to my semi-local store. And then the whole state caught fire, and the air quality became dangerously bad, and I had a minor health problem, so it took me a couple of weeks to get to the store and start the paperwork. I passed the firearm safety cert test and passed the background check and picked the gun up about 10 days later.

It seems like a decent shotgun. I have not been able to actually shoot it yet. The local ranges are ether closed or open on a very limited basis right now due to the pandemic. Most are open only to club members and are not allowing novices or holding classes. With the high fire danger, you can’t shoot on public lands within a few hundred miles. I’d like to pattern the gun and practice handling it, but I don’t see a good opportunity for awhile. I had a demonstration of the gun when I picked it up at the store, so I know the basic operation. I have used a shotgun before, but it was a long time ago. I’ve watched many videos. And I bought some snap caps to practice loading and other operations. But I’d really like to do the real thing soon.

The ammo situation is tight. There were lots of bird shot options, and I got a few boxes. But there was only one box of buckshot when I picked up the gun. The clerk actually told me there wasn’t any and was surprised to see a box on the shelf. So I got the last one. No slugs at all.

So that’s my shotgun purchase story. It’s a crazy time right now.
I felt badly for you as I read your story. The area I live in has a large population of Seniors (not that you are one) and they are scared to death. They have no idea how to navigate the process of attaining a firearm and learning to be proficient.
This is the reason I took the time and expense to get an instructors rating. I offer coaching at no charge for those that can not afford it.
Good luck on your journey.
 

Michael L

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I got caught up in long range shooting over a decade ago. I've got two customs (.338 Edge and .20 PPC `). I built some AR's but I gave those to my boys. All but one. I recently converted mine to 6.8mm SPC but I haven't shot it yet. I still need to mount the NV scope on it (it's a hog hunting gun... relax :) ) The messed up thing about building a rifle for night hunting is that sighting it in is a pita. NV doesn't like daylight. I haven't jumped through the hoops of buying a suppressor for my .308 bolt gun (also for hogs). I might not. .308, loaded right for quiet, is a pita and it's not accurate enough to suit me, especially since I prefer precision shooting with bolt guns. Besides that, night time is for sleeping. Pistols... I think along the lines of my favorite line from Tom Selleck in Quigley Down Under- "I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it." I got into all of this because I like to reload. I like tuning the ammunition to the rifle. Speaking of Quigley... to this day the "Quigley rifle" while not the most accurate of the black powder Spencer rifle calibers it is pretty much the most expensive. At least it was the last time I looked (yep, about $1,400 more than any other Sharps Shiloh Rifle sells). Even though I know that it's not "as accurate" and it's expensive, sort of, I'd like to have one. The real Quigley rifle was modified to shoot a metallic cartridge. The original Spencer has a falling block action. The action is designed cut the end of the paper cartridge which exposed the black powder. Anyway... I have many uses for powder :)
 

XrayLizard

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I bought my first firearm a few weeks ago.

So that’s my shotgun purchase story. It’s a crazy time right now.
Welcome to Shotguns :)
You made a good choice for both a starter and keeper model. The 28" barrel is fine.
In fact the "world" of shotguns ....... and at most shotgun ranges (not tactical) you would get the occasional stink eye if it was a short barrel, lol.

I hope you find a decent range, with nice folk.. learn some Trap and Skeet. it is both fun and frustrating.
Now, allow me to say, put about 1K in your account and keep an eye out for local gun shops that might have a nice used made in Japan SKB O/U.
very nice, fun to own. easily the best value in shotguns even though they will be years old. (new ones made in Turkey)
and one warning, shotgun folks can be pretty particular and highly opinionated... don't let any negative nancys get through your skin!
 

o1d_dude

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The Mossberg 500 is often looked down upon by gun shops...mostly because they almost never break.

Birdshot is great for defensive use inside a house. Close range, no over-penetration through exterior walls.

Now get some training on using it.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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I felt badly for you as I read your story. The area I live in has a large population of Seniors (not that you are one) and they are scared to death. They have no idea how to navigate the process of attaining a firearm and learning to be proficient.
This is the reason I took the time and expense to get an instructors rating. I offer coaching at no charge for those that can not afford it.
Good luck on your journey.
Thanks. It has been quite a pain in the butt.

The main problem is a timing issue. The demand is very high right now, and the supply is depleted. Normally, these stores have inventory in stock. Out of curiosity, I’ve asked in the past to see and compare shotguns before at Big Five, Dicks, and the Guns and Fishing shop, and they had plenty to show me. So ordinarily you can pick out one right off the shelf and get it in 10 days. And the problem with access to the ranges and instruction is usually not a problem either when not in the middle of a global pandemic. I’ve checked the schedules at the local ranges, and they all had shotgun classes on the schedule that have been canceled. This is just a very unusual time.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Welcome to Shotguns :)
You made a good choice for both a starter and keeper model. The 28" barrel is fine.
In fact the "world" of shotguns ....... and at most shotgun ranges (not tactical) you would get the occasional stink eye if it was a short barrel, lol.

I hope you find a decent range, with nice folk.. learn some Trap and Skeet. it is both fun and frustrating.
Now, allow me to say, put about 1K in your account and keep an eye out for local gun shops that might have a nice used made in Japan SKB O/U.
very nice, fun to own. easily the best value in shotguns even though they will be years old. (new ones made in Turkey)
and one warning, shotgun folks can be pretty particular and highly opinionated... don't let any negative nancys get through your skin!
Thanks.

I’d like to give Trap and Skeet a try. There’s a range very nearby, but for now access is limited, and the classes are all canceled. I don’t actually expect to be very good at it because my eyesight is not good, and I am strongly cross eye dominant (right handed, but a very dominant left eye). Still, I'd like to give it a try.
 

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