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Banzai88

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News Flash, they have been for over 6 months, with everyone that I talk to (across many different states) saying that 1/3rd to 1/2 of their business this year has been 1st time or 2nd time gun buyers, with about 1/2 of the 1st timers being women.

Most places can't even keep the high end stuff in stock. ALL of my local gun shops have waiting lists for guns and ammo. People are even buying up stuff they have no use for to keep for post-apocalypse barter. $30/1K primers are going for $75+ on gun broker, and $500 glocks are easily commanding $750 in instant sales.

And you can name your price right now on 5.56, 308, 9mm, 40, and 45. A $13 dollar DAY of plinking 22LR now costs nearly a $50 spot.

The 'value' of my personal ammo stash has just hit 'European GDP' levels in the last week alone.

I've been in the firearms industry in one professional capacity or another since 1991, never EVER seen anything even remotely like our current retail environment.........
 
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rklapp

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News Flash, they have been for over 6 months. Most places can't even keep the high end stuff in stock. ALL of my local gun shops have waiting lists for guns and ammo. People are even buying up stuff they have no use for to keep for post-apocalypse barter. $30/1K primers are going for $75+ on gun broker, and $500 glocks are easily commanding $750 in instant sales.

And you can name your price right now on 5.56, 308, 9mm, 40, and 45. The 'value' of my personal stash has just hit 'European GDP' levels in the last week alone.
I heard it’s mostly because the primers, ammo, etc. factories haven’t been operating. I also heard they’re starting up production again.
 

Banzai88

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I heard it’s mostly because the primers, ammo, etc. factories haven’t been operating. I also heard they’re starting up production again.
I will tell you from first hand knowledge (I have a buddy that works in the industry for Hornady) that it's only a tiny fraction been Covid reduced staff or reduced production numbers. That was the INITIAL reason, but things are back to 24/7/365 speed, and have been for 6 months. There are far, far fewer 'ammo factories' in the US than most people think, and during the Obama years regulatory issues (by way of materials availability and haz mat) shrunk overall capacity significantly. "Just-in-time" LEAN/6Sigma production methods haven't helped any, either, as they only work when there's a raw material surplus.

The BULK of the constraint is a shortage of primers, 99.95% of which are going to commercial loading for finished ammunition, of which local, State, and Federal government contracts are placing "Priority calls" on their contracts, with much of the finished ammo going to those 'guaranteed delivery' contracts.

The rest of it is making it's way to distributors, but then going out primarily to their contract fulfillment......what's left is what you and I see on the shelves.
 
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ThirstyBarbarian

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News Flash, they have been for over 6 months, with everyone that I talk to (across many different states) saying that 1/3rd to 1/2 of their business this year has been 1st time or 2nd time gun buyers, with about 1/2 of the 1st timers being women.

Most places can't even keep the high end stuff in stock. ALL of my local gun shops have waiting lists for guns and ammo. People are even buying up stuff they have no use for to keep for post-apocalypse barter. $30/1K primers are going for $75+ on gun broker, and $500 glocks are easily commanding $750 in instant sales.

And you can name your price right now on 5.56, 308, 9mm, 40, and 45. A $13 dollar DAY of plinking 22LR now costs nearly a $50 spot.

The 'value' of my personal ammo stash has just hit 'European GDP' levels in the last week alone.

I've been in the firearms industry in one professional capacity or another since 1991, never EVER seen anything even remotely like our current retail environment.........
I think there are a lot of factors that are compounding each other.

I'm a first time buyer, so I haven't been as keyed into this as some of my friends who are long-time shooting enthusiasts, but according to them, there is always a surge in sales and shortage of supplies during an election year, especially if there is a perception that an administration that is less gun-friendly will win the election. So that's one factor.

Add to that the pandemic and general anxiety over what the consequences of that will be. A lot of people who generally do not have a "prepper" type approach to life, including me, have been motivated to stock up on a lot to things. You can see that in the way people started panic buying TP and canned foods early in the pandemic, and a lot of people continue to hoard more supplies today than they used to. I know I do. The pandemic did cause real supply-chain issues that fed into that anxiety. Plus, add to that the anxiety over whether you might need to be armed to protect your hoard of supplies if things really got bad. So it's not at all surprising to me that the same pandemic anxiety led to more gun and ammo purchases and shortages.

And the third factor I think is one of the biggest factors and also one of the most unfortunate and disturbing is the anxiety over potential political or cultural instability or violence. I don't want to open a political or cultural discussion or a this-side-versus-that-side argument, but it's obvious that no matter what side you are on or how you feel about it, there is a lot of political, social, and cultural turmoil going on related to the biggest civil rights protests in 50 years and the responses to those protests, the pandemic-related government responses and the backlash to those responses, and the divisive election and rhetoric around how it will be conducted. I think that may be what has really cranked the anxiety level up to 11. And for me, it's this growing instability that finally convinced me it was the time to buy a few months ago.
 
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MikeyDSlagle

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I have a Mosssie as well. I load a 'less than lethal' as my first round, followed by birdshot and then 00 buck. In the house it has the shortest barrel allowed by law. It's a 28" for skeet. I figure it will play well in the court room if someone decides I'm a stone cold killer. :)
Shortest barrel allowed by federal law, until it becomes something other than a shotgun, is 18". The entire gun only has to be 26". May be more restricted in your state, or you fat-fingered it.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Shortest barrel allowed by federal law, until it becomes something other than a shotgun, is 18". The entire gun only has to be 26". May be more restricted in your state, or you fat-fingered it.
I think he is saying he has two barrels. Short one for in the home. Long one for skeet.
 

XrayLizard

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Mr. T Barbarian;
Don’t sweat the whole Choke thing too much. Although Mossberg generally supplies a good Choke match to Barell ID (bore). Unlike my dam Browning.
One choke can often as not pattern like +/- 1 choke difference
To add to it, there’s also Skeet 1 and Skeet 2 chokes.
Accomplished skeet shooters can hit tthe clays with a full choke :)
In trap we use IM as and Full.
 
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rharshberger

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Mr. T Barbarian;
Don’t sweat the whole Choke thing too much. Although Mossberg generally supplies a good Choke match to Barell ID (bore). Unlike my dam Browning.
One choke can often as not pattern like +/- 1 choke difference
To add to it, there’s also Skeet 1 and Skeet 2 chokes.
Accomplished skeet shooters can hit tthe clays with a full choke :)
In trap we use IM as and Full.
And remember that when using steel shot (with chokes for lead) use one choke lower to get the effect you want, if you want a full choked steel use a modified choke for lead, chokes made for steel already figure the tighter pattern steel makes. Older chokes made for lead only will be damaged eventually when shooting steel shot, guns that have fixed chokes USUALLY are meant only to be shot with lead pellet ammo, but they typically can be shot some with steel with negligible effect on the barrel.
 

MClark

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For turkey I used a Modified and Tungsten Super Shot. Normally a full is used for turkey.
I didn’t do much patterning because of cost, $7.00 a shot!
 

XrayLizard

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Patterning is whole nother ball of waxy confusion!
If your shotgun does not fit well, or you don’t have a practiced mount one might think the guns shoots left, right, up or down.
For home defense, prob not a big deal
For lefties, it a real issue as most are built for right handers, right eye dominant
My SKB’s are darn neutral, fit decent.
My brownie has adjustable butt and comb.
Had a beretta SP, typical right hander, could not hit well with it.
My Mossy seems reasonable neutral, but it is for close quarters Coyote lol
 

rharshberger

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Patterning is whole nother ball of waxy confusion!
If your shotgun does not fit well, or you don’t have a practiced mount one might think the guns shoots left, right, up or down.
For home defense, prob not a big deal
For lefties, it a real issue as most are built for right handers, right eye dominant
My SKB’s are darn neutral, fit decent.
My brownie has adjustable butt and comb.
Had a beretta SP, typical right hander, could not hit well with it.
My Mossy seems reasonable neutral, but it is for close quarters Coyote lol
Indeed patterning a shotgun is different for every single gun....the combo of barrel length, choke, particular ammo brand and action all affect the pattern. My Beretta A390 (my main duck gun) patterns extremely well with Kent Fasteel and FastSteel2.0, not so well with other brands like the Federal SpeedShok, UltraShok, and the new PowerShok, yet it also does well enough with Remingtons HEVI-Steel and surprisingly the Hevi-Shot (to darned expensive to shoot).
 

Senior Space Cadet

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Went back in time this time. 1830's vintage repro Underhammer Black Powder Cap and Ball Muzzleloader (44 Cal.) Will blow your head clean off, now go ahead, make my day... Now when I need black powder for my ejection charges, I can tell the bastards at Cabellas it's "For a black powder gun"
According to federal regulations, this is NOT a firearm...

View attachment 435626
That looks like a black powder target pistol? Is it? Didn't know they existed.
I was watching a show about the Lincoln assassination. They did some testing with ballistic gel. The black powder derringer Booth used was pretty anemic. Big ball but extremely low velocity. If he hadn't put the gun right up to Lincoln's head it probably wouldn't have killed him. I think black powder would be something I'd be interested in getting into. Looks fun.
 

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I should take a photo of my Dan Wesson revolver with Match Dot sights. Fantastic trigger. When I was in practice, from a standing position, I could hit a twelve inch frying pan, at 100 yards, pretty consistently. I've started doing my dry fire practice again. In fact I think I'll do some right now.
I'm looking to buy a trail gun. My Dan Wesson is a bit big and heavy for that. I'm thinking a CZ or Walther. I like an external hammer. I've got to get my CC permit.
 

Sooner Boomer

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Rambling thoughts...

It occurs to me that there are several "Barbie Dolls" in the firearms world. The 1911 Colt pistol, the "AR" platform, and the Mossburg 500 series all have "dress-up" parts and pieces. The Thompson/Center Contender/Encore/C2 are more like Legos in their switch-around versatility.

If I ever get motivated, I think I'm going to take up bullet casting again. For plinking pleasure, I shoot .38Spl. I've got a load for wadcutters that just sips powder. I've been using Ranier plated bullets, but since I keep the muzzle velocity fairly low, cast bullets should work fine. It's not too hard/expensive to add a sizing/lube station to the press. I might play around with casting balls/bullets for my black powder rifle, too. If I get *really* ambitious, I might try making my own black powder...
 

XrayLizard

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World book encyclopedia.
1960’s
Made some, just a kid buying saltpeter, probably sulfur, from the local pharmacy. Maybe 12 yrs old.
Rolled it all up into big wad of paper.
Laid it on the ground.
Was able to turn sand into a Grainy glass lol
Mom not happy ,dad secretly proud!
The real world!
 
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MClark

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I have made double base powder.
It was for work.
Requires expensive equipment useless for anything else, (shear roll mill, extruder)
Had a chemist/engineer who really did know what he was doing instructing.
Truly "Don’t try this at home."
 

PatD

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Black powder is not difficult but a little time consuming to do correctly to get consistent 'good' powder. I built my own ball mill and made a lot of bp back when I was making fireworks.
 

rklapp

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What I like about this forum compared to other firearm forums is that it isn't filled with people selling their used rockets for $2000 after only launching the rocket once. Just saying...
 

rfjustin

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What I like about this forum compared to other firearm forums is that it isn't filled with people selling their used rockets for $2000 after only launching the rocket once. Just saying...
So true. Seems some (most?) firearms enthusiasts seem to think their mass produced gear is something special when it comes to resale value and it ain't. Its only worth what others are willing to pay. Even in the current enviroment, the firearms themselves might be higher due to demand surge, but getting ammo is the real kicker right now. Not going to know what ammo manufactures are going to do long term until after the election. As if this year was not exciting enough with Covid, its an election year too!

Capture.JPG
 

XrayLizard

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Oh, I don’t know about that !!! Lol.
Rem700 classic, .221fireball produced one year, 1982. Less than a hunnert rounds!
Is not cheap 😀
Same for a like new .220swift. Rem 700
Both exceptionally good sub moa with modern factory ammo.... which was kind of a bummer, as had looked forward to many a reloading session!
 

Banzai88

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Folks used to get highly irate when they would bring a gun to me to sell it back to the store. EVERYONE thinks that they should get back what they paid for it. EVERYONE. Even folks that know the business. Always amazes me and leaves me shaking my head.

This is how it's played out for me for the 30 years and different stores/ranges that I've worked:

Pretty much the standard quote is 1/2 of DISTRIBUTOR/WHOLESALE price (my price) - whatever % factor for wear and tear/condition. Our gun markup is generally +15% (15% is enough to keep the doors open and the lights on....barely).......so something that costs me $500 to put on the wall has a $575 price tag on it.

Call it a $600 pistol, out the door.......shoot a few boxes of ammunition through it, keep it for 6 months....then need cash for Christmas purchases.......trade-in for me to buy it? Yep, you guessed it......$250. They leave angry as hell......go to a pawn shop and get offered $125.....and come back to me a week later BEGGING for $350 or their old lady will leave them. That's when I put $250 cash and a bill of sale that they need to sign on the counter.....and 99.99% of them take the $250.

I then take that $250 pistol, with a few hundred rounds through it, send it to the gunsmith for a full detail clean for $35, and put it up on the wall as 'USED' for $450 right next to that new $575 one.........and sell the used one the next day.

At one point I audited our bound book and nearly 20% of our stock 'rotated' in this manner at least once before leaving forever. I had one Springfield Armory 1911 that I sold 4 times across 2 years before it never came back.

Want a nearly 100% predictor of that that 'rotating inventory' gun is going to be? Keep an eye on whatever gun the hero/villain uses in the latest action movie. Chances are that it'll be flying off of the shelves for the next month or so, only to come back in stacks the week after purchase, or the week after Thanksgiving when Christmas sales start. It's such a 'thing' that our distributor reps often call with 'movie specials' the week or two BEFORE a blockbuster movie comes out.

Trade in to buy something else? $300 STORE CREDIT ONLY that cannot be cashed out.

Same with rifles, except that any Franken AR that someone assembled from a lower and parts at home gets an auto minus of about 50%......even if you have the receipts to prove your high end parts.......If YOU built it, for me to re-sell it I have to disassemble it, clean it, and reassemble it, PROVING each part is what you say it is, if possible (and most parts are impossible to prove lineage in the AR world) and make sure it works......or I'm left with a dud that no 'manufacturer' will take on a warranty claim and I have to eat the cost of making it work........after all, it was sold as parts, NOT a complete rifle.

The harsh reality is, if you want more $$$? Go peddle it on ARFcom, I'll see you back here in a week.

As for bolt rifles, unless it's a limited run or a distributor special, no special consideration, even for accessories. Best bet is to sell those separately on ARFcom, Gun Broker, or Ebay, because my mark up on those is ABSURD, and you would be insulted by any offer I would make on them individually.
 
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rfjustin

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Folks used to get highly irate when they would bring a gun to me to sell it back to the store. EVERYONE thinks that they should get back what they paid for it. EVERYONE. Even folks that know the business. Always amazes me and leaves me shaking my head.

This is how it's played out for me for the 30 years and different stores/ranges that I've worked:

Pretty much the standard quote is 1/2 of DISTRIBUTOR/WHOLESALE price (my price) - whatever % factor for wear and tear/condition. Our gun markup is generally +15% (15% is enough to keep the doors open and the lights on....barely).......so something that costs me $500 to put on the wall has a $575 price tag on it.

Call it a $600 pistol, out the door.......shoot a few boxes through it, keep it for 6 months....then need cash for Christmas purchases.......trade-in for me to buy it? Yep, you guessed it......$250. They leave angry as hell......go to a pawn shop and get offered $125.....and come back to me a week later BEGGING for $350 or their old lady will leave them. That's when I put $250 cash and a bill of sale that they need to sign on the counter.....and 99.99% of them take the $250.

I then take that $250 pistol, with a few hundred rounds through it, send it to the gunsmith for a full detail clean for $35, and put it up on the wall as 'USED' for $450....and sell it the next day.

Trade in to buy something else? $300 STORE CREDIT ONLY that cannot be cashed out.

Same with rifles, except that any Franken AR that someone assembled from a lower and parts at home gets an auto minus of about 50%......even if you have the receipts to prove your high end parts.......If YOU built it, for me to re-sell it I have to disassemble it, clean it, and reassemble it, PROVING each part is what you say it is, if possible (and most parts are impossible to prove lineage in the AR world) and make sure it works......or I'm left with a dud that no 'manufacturer' will take on a warranty claim and I have to eat the cost of making it work........after all, it was sold as parts, NOT a complete rifle.

The harsh reality is, if you want more $$$? Go peddle it on ARFcom, I'll see you back here in a week.
Clearly you work in the business, I appreciate your input in this G&R thread. Keep the good info coming! :)
 

rharshberger

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Folks used to get highly irate when they would bring a gun to me to sell it back to the store. EVERYONE thinks that they should get back what they paid for it. EVERYONE. Even folks that know the business. Always amazes me and leaves me shaking my head.

This is how it's played out for me for the 30 years and different stores/ranges that I've worked:

Pretty much the standard quote is 1/2 of DISTRIBUTOR/WHOLESALE price (my price) - whatever % factor for wear and tear/condition. Our gun markup is generally +15% (15% is enough to keep the doors open and the lights on....barely).......so something that costs me $500 to put on the wall has a $575 price tag on it.

Call it a $600 pistol, out the door.......shoot a few boxes of ammunition through it, keep it for 6 months....then need cash for Christmas purchases.......trade-in for me to buy it? Yep, you guessed it......$250. They leave angry as hell......go to a pawn shop and get offered $125.....and come back to me a week later BEGGING for $350 or their old lady will leave them. That's when I put $250 cash and a bill of sale that they need to sign on the counter.....and 99.99% of them take the $250.

I then take that $250 pistol, with a few hundred rounds through it, send it to the gunsmith for a full detail clean for $35, and put it up on the wall as 'USED' for $450 right next to that new $575 one.........and sell the used one the next day.

At one point I audited our bound book and nearly 20% of our stock 'rotated' in this manner at least once before leaving forever. I had one Springfield Armory 1911 that I sold 4 times across 2 years before it never came back.

Want a nearly 100% predictor of that that 'rotating inventory' gun is going to be? Keep an eye on whatever gun the hero/villain uses in the latest action movie. Chances are that it'll be flying off of the shelves for the next month or so, only to come back in stacks the week after purchase, or the week after Thanksgiving when Christmas sales start. It's such a 'thing' that our distributor reps often call with 'movie specials' the week or two BEFORE a blockbuster movie comes out.

Trade in to buy something else? $300 STORE CREDIT ONLY that cannot be cashed out.

Same with rifles, except that any Franken AR that someone assembled from a lower and parts at home gets an auto minus of about 50%......even if you have the receipts to prove your high end parts.......If YOU built it, for me to re-sell it I have to disassemble it, clean it, and reassemble it, PROVING each part is what you say it is, if possible (and most parts are impossible to prove lineage in the AR world) and make sure it works......or I'm left with a dud that no 'manufacturer' will take on a warranty claim and I have to eat the cost of making it work........after all, it was sold as parts, NOT a complete rifle.

The harsh reality is, if you want more $$$? Go peddle it on ARFcom, I'll see you back here in a week.

As for bolt rifles, unless it's a limited run or a distributor special, no special consideration, even for accessories. Best bet is to sell those separately on ARFcom, Gun Broker, or Ebay, because my mark up on those is ABSURD, and you would be insulted by any offer I would make on them individually.
The gun stores I worked in had a slightly different formula but same idea. Our used gun formula was the same unless you had purchased the gun from us (we did have records after all), then the 50% of wholesale price was modified to about 80% as long as it was in like new condition. Optics were considered zero value as there was no easy way to determine whether they were reliable or not, so a $600 rifle with a $600 scope was....$600. The worst purchases were older guns like Lugers and old Win 94's, while they would easily sell, determining an actual value was really difficult. I once had a Luger come into the shop, after several hours work and talking with a local Luger guy, best we could come up with was that it was a post war gun built with some leftover prewar parts (DWM toggle, etc), not as valuable as the owner hoped, however in typical german fashion all the parts were serialized. Win 94's have a whole lot of "specials" depending on which dealer ordered them and what options were put together, short mag tubes, octagon, half octagon barrels etc.
 
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