Estes "E" motors and USPS shipping?

[beezwax]

Hey TRF, I'm just spinning off a question that came up in a different thread:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-you-buy-your-motors-from&p=464884#post464884

I was under the impression that the difference between DOT classes 1.4S and 1.4C as regards rocket motors had to do with the mass of the individual propellant grain(s), namely 0-30g for 1.4S and 30-62.5g for 1.4C classification. Thus the somewhat counterintuitive comparisons where an Aerotech G64W can be shipped via USPS (60g total propellant, but 2x30g grains) but an Estes E9 has to go via UPS/FedEx with a hazmat fee (being a single 36g grain). But then it came to my attention that there are many online retailers (Hobbylinc for one, discussed in the original thread linked above) that are shipping Estes E class motors through the US mail, no hazmat fee. So, are all of these retailers acting incorrectly here, or is there something about this situation that I'm not understanding correctly?

I found these two older threads discussing propellant weights and hazmat shipping, but everything I read in them would seem to support the conclusion that Estes E motors cannot be shipped via USPS:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?31603-Propellent-weight-amp-Haz-Mat

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?25357-HazMat-Shipping

 

[plano-doug]

So, are all of these retailers acting incorrectly here...?

Yes! And the fines for doing that can be huge! One case I'm aware of amounted to $40,000!

Doug

.

 

[UhClem]

The Estes MSDS seems pretty clear on the subject. "Engines with more than 30g of propellant may not be shipped by the USPS."

I dug into my email archives and found where I had queried Hobbylinc on this very subject in 2003 but I have no record of a response.

 

[rcktnut]

So what does this mean??? :Sport rocket motors with 62.5 grams or less of black powder or ammonium perchlorate
composite propellant are classified as Division 1.4 Explosives. Within this overall 1.4 category,
motors with more than 30 grams of propellant are classified as Division 1.4C (specifically, as
Model Rocket Motor NA0276), while those with 30 grams or less are classified Division 1.4S
(Model Rocket Motor NA0323). Most sport rocket manufacturers have a special DOT
exemption that gives them permission to ship small quantities of sport rocket motors that are
classified 1.4 (62.5 grams or less of propellant) as if these items were a lower hazard category
called Flammable Solid (Division 4.1, UN1325). The packaging and labeling for 4.1 materials is
less burdensome than for 1.4 materials. Most motors are shipped as Flammable Solids to
individuals and hobby stores by the manufacturers and their distributors. Individual rocketeers
are not parties to this DOT exemption and cannot ship motors as Flammable Solid (4.1), even if
they can find a carrier who will accept and ship HAZMAT

A hobby store can't get the same exemption???

 

[beezwax]

The Estes MSDS seems pretty clear on the subject. "Engines with more than 30g of propellant may not be shipped by the USPS."

That does seem to state the case quite plainly, thank you for sharing that link. And I'm glad to have that confirmation because otherwise my understanding of the whole system of regs regarding the shipment of rocket motors was about to be turned upside down. It's funny though because there are a lot of low-power rocketry retailers that seem to be shipping Estes E motors through the mail, not just one or two. Seems like there has been a lack of communication on this point, but I supposed the practice will continue until someone gets in big trouble.

So what does this mean??? :Sport rocket motors with 62.5 grams or less of black powder or ammonium perchlorate
composite propellant are classified as Division 1.4 Explosives. Within this overall 1.4 category,
motors with more than 30 grams of propellant are classified as Division 1.4C (specifically, as
Model Rocket Motor NA0276), while those with 30 grams or less are classified Division 1.4S
(Model Rocket Motor NA0323). Most sport rocket manufacturers have a special DOT
exemption that gives them permission to ship small quantities of sport rocket motors that are
classified 1.4 (62.5 grams or less of propellant) as if these items were a lower hazard category
called Flammable Solid (Division 4.1, UN1325). The packaging and labeling for 4.1 materials is
less burdensome than for 1.4 materials. Most motors are shipped as Flammable Solids to
individuals and hobby stores by the manufacturers and their distributors. Individual rocketeers
are not parties to this DOT exemption and cannot ship motors as Flammable Solid (4.1), even if
they can find a carrier who will accept and ship HAZMAT

A hobby store can't get the same exemption???

Someone else may chime in here with more knowledge than I have but yes that is my understanding of the regs. That special exemption is given to the motor manufacturers and does not extend to individual retailers or hobby stores. As far as I know, retailers are bound by the normal shipping standards that apply to the DOT classifications:

Individual propellant grains of not more than 30g = class 1.4S
Individual propellant grains more than 30g but not more than 62.5g = class 1.4C
Individual propellant grains more than 62.5g = class 1.3C

 

[UhClem]

Someone else may chime in here with more knowledge than I have but yes that is my understanding of the regs. That special exemption is given to the motor manufacturers and does not extend to individual retailers or hobby stores. As far as I know, retailers are bound by the normal shipping standards that apply to the DOT classifications:

If you were to read the exemption you would find this paragraph:

8. SPECIAL PROVISIONS:
a. A person who receives a shipment of model rocket motor
kits classed under this special permit but is not a grantee
may reoffer the kits for transportation in conformance with
this special permit provided no modifications or changes are
made to the inner packagings and they are reoffered for
transportation in conformance with this special permit and
the HMR.

On the other hand you are still shipping hazardous material with all of the requirements that go along with it.

 

[beezwax]

Hmmm, okay even after reading that this lower hazard class exemption (4.1 flammable solids) isn't completely clear to me. It seems as if those shipments (or re-shipments from retailers) are still labeled as 1.4S on the packaging with "Toy Propellant Devices" etc, or at least that's how the boxes I've received have been marked. But either way Estes's own MSDS sheet which you provided does spell out that their 30+ gram motors cannot be sent via USPS.

 

[rcktnut]

I believe that even we, willing to go thru all the "hoops and loops" could ship motors USPS up to 30 grams propellant weight. Also if a vendor screws up on a motor order that has been shipped Hazmat I think we can ship them back to the vendor in the original package for exchange.

 

[beezwax]

I believe that even we, willing to go thru all the "hoops and loops" could ship motors USPS up to 30 grams propellant weight.

That's what I understand as well from the NAR summary:

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

Yes! And the fines for doing that can be huge! One case I'm aware of amounted to $40,000!

You weren't by chance referring to the judgment against USR/J.I. were you? It's as if he's rocketry's own Voldemort at times, he who shall not be named.... Anyway, one of the things that was in my mind concerning the question of shipping exemptions actually stemmed from something I recalled with this whole mess from way back when. Seems like part of those troubles specifically involved shipping motors under a DOT exemption without actually having an official "party to an exemption" letter, hence my comment earlier that I believed such exemptions did not extend beyond the manufacturers:

https://www.rocketryonline.com/how-to/jerry.html

EDIT: though I should add that upon re-reading this last link I just shared, the exemptions being discussed there are not the same as the "4.1 flammable solids" exemption mentioned earlier... this was just a dimly remembered example from before that I included by way of explanation for what influenced my earlier thinking/comment....

 

[troj]

I don't recall the specifics, but in order to ship any motor via USPS, the manufacturer has to have applied for, and received, approval. In addition, they have to go through specific procedures to allow their dealers to legally ship those motors based on that approval.

The shipments of the motors then must be marked in specific ways, and be accompanied by very specific paperwork.

Yes, I'm being a bit vague, because I don't know the exact approval, or paperwork, required. I just know the basic process, due to having discussed it with Todd Moore of Sky Ripper, and the hoops he had to jump through in order to legally ship the preheaters for his motors.

-Kevin

 

[tbonerocketeer]

I don't recall the specifics, but in order to ship any motor via USPS, the manufacturer has to have applied for, and received, approval. In addition, they have to go through specific procedures to allow their dealers to legally ship those motors based on that approval.

The shipments of the motors then must be marked in specific ways, and be accompanied by very specific paperwork.

Yes, I'm being a bit vague, because I don't know the exact approval, or paperwork, required. I just know the basic process, due to having discussed it with Todd Moore of Sky Ripper, and the hoops he had to jump through in order to legally ship the preheaters for his motors.

-Kevin

Yes, and they have to list all dealers that they allow to ship as well.

 

[tbonerocketeer]

I believe that even we, willing to go thru all the "hoops and loops" could ship motors USPS up to 30 grams propellant weight. Also if a vendor screws up on a motor order that has been shipped Hazmat I think we can ship them back to the vendor in the original package for exchange.

I dont believe so, unless the box is unopened. They may be able to do a recall shipment but I think fedex doesn't allow it for hazmat as the person packaging it hasn't been trained(there is a $150 class for hazmat shipping)

 

[tbonerocketeer]

Individual propellant grains of not more than 30g = class 1.4S
Individual propellant grains more than 30g but not more than 62.5g = class 1.4C
Individual propellant grains more than 62.5g = class 1.3C

There is an exemption for more than 62.5g as well, it ships 1.4c. FYI, 1.3C has to be shipped dedicated truck and hazmat drivers typically make $.70/mile. Fedex does not ever handle 1.3 explosive products.

 

[beezwax]

There is an exemption for more than 62.5g as well, it ships 1.4c. FYI, 1.3C has to be shipped dedicated truck and hazmat drivers typically make $.70/mile. Fedex does not ever handle 1.3 explosive products.

Interesting, does this other exemption explain the 1.4C designation that CTI lists on their MSDS forms for all of their motors except the Pro150 line? I know that unlike Aerotech reloads which ship in pieces (thereby allowing the 29mm line to go via USPS) it seems all CTI reloads go with hazmat shipping because the reloads ship as a single unit, regardless of the number of grains inside that unit (discounting the very small handful of CTI motors that technically still could go via USPS because the entire motor weighs in at less than 30g of propellant, as has already been discussed in the older threads here which I linked in my original post). But one thing that sticks in my mind that puzzled me when I checked out the MSDS forms provided by CTI is that only the Pro150 line is listed as 1.3C, all the other lines up through Pro98 they have listed as 1.4C, which is strange since most of those have a unit volume greater than 62.5g propellant and the larger ones would even have individual grains larger than 62.5g ...so I didn't understand why they weren't listed as 1.3C motors. In contrast, the regulatory forms which Aerotech provides on their website indicate that their 54/75/98 lines are classified 1.3C, though those forms look like they haven't been updated in a while, maybe they are also now shipping as 1.4C through this other exemption?

 

[UhClem]

Interesting, does this other exemption explain the 1.4C designation that CTI lists on their MSDS forms for all of their motors except the Pro150 line?

CTI is in Canada.

 

[tbonerocketeer]

Interesting, does this other exemption explain the 1.4C designation that CTI lists on their MSDS forms for all of their motors except the Pro150 line? I know that unlike Aerotech reloads which ship in pieces (thereby allowing the 29mm line to go via USPS) it seems all CTI reloads go with hazmat shipping because the reloads ship as a single unit, regardless of the number of grains inside that unit (discounting the very small handful of CTI motors that technically still could go via USPS because the entire motor weighs in at less than 30g of propellant, as has already been discussed in the older threads here which I linked in my original post). But one thing that sticks in my mind that puzzled me when I checked out the MSDS forms provided by CTI is that only the Pro150 line is listed as 1.3C, all the other lines up through Pro98 they have listed as 1.4C, which is strange since most of those have a unit volume greater than 62.5g propellant and the larger ones would even have individual grains larger than 62.5g ...so I didn't understand why they weren't listed as 1.3C motors. In contrast, the regulatory forms which Aerotech provides on their website indicate that their 54/75/98 lines are classified 1.3C, though those forms look like they haven't been updated in a while, maybe they are also now shipping as 1.4C through this other exemption?

I don't know how CTI manages it other than the cardboard tube may be a legal box for shipping, and it falls under the special shipping. I am not positive about it though.

 

[beezwax]

CTI is in Canada.

Thanks I'm aware of that. Their MSDS sheets indicate a 1.4C classification for their entire Pro24-Pro98 lines in both Canada and the US:

https://www.pro38.com/MSDS/MSDS--ProX--ver3-0.pdf

 

[Rocketjunkie]

CTI actually applied for and received 1.4c classification while Aerotech is operating under an exemption allowing 1.4c shipping of 1.3c material. Both are up to 1400g per grain. That's why the moon burners are multiple grains that are glued together. (Moon burners are normally a single grain.)

 

[beezwax]

CTI actually applied for and received 1.4c classification while Aerotech is operating under an exemption allowing 1.4c shipping of 1.3c material. Both are up to 1400g per grain. That's why the moon burners are multiple grains that are glued together. (Moon burners are normally a single grain.)

Thank you for the explanation, that is good to know. Normally I would not give this much thought to shipping regulations but a future move has me paying great attention

 

[tbonerocketeer]

CTI actually applied for and received 1.4c classification while Aerotech is operating under an exemption allowing 1.4c shipping of 1.3c material. Both are up to 1400g per grain. That's why the moon burners are multiple grains that are glued together. (Moon burners are normally a single grain.)

There is the answer! I couldn't remember the reasons off hand. Silly me knows about the 1400g rule too as I ship the stuff.

 

[raohara]

Seems like there has been a lack of communication on this point, but I supposed the practice will continue until someone gets in big trouble.

Lack of communication may be part of it, but I also know that in the case of one vendor "communication" has taken place and there is still no change how they ship certain motors.

- Rich

 

[bobkrech]

Hey TRF, I'm just spinning off a question that came up in a different thread:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-you-buy-your-motors-from&p=464884#post464884

I was under the impression that the difference between DOT classes 1.4S and 1.4C as regards rocket motors had to do with the mass of the individual propellant grain(s), namely 0-30g for 1.4S and 30-62.5g for 1.4C classification. Thus the somewhat counterintuitive comparisons where an Aerotech G64W can be shipped via USPS (60g total propellant, but 2x30g grains) but an Estes E9 has to go via UPS/FedEx with a hazmat fee (being a single 36g grain). But then it came to my attention that there are many online retailers (Hobbylinc for one, discussed in the original thread linked above) that are shipping Estes E class motors through the US mail, no hazmat fee. So, are all of these retailers acting incorrectly here, or is there something about this situation that I'm not understanding correctly?

I found these two older threads discussing propellant weights and hazmat shipping, but everything I read in them would seem to support the conclusion that Estes E motors cannot be shipped via USPS:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?31603-Propellent-weight-amp-Haz-Mat

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?25357-HazMat-Shipping

The Simplified Rocket Motor Shipping Rules

0.) Forget everything someone told you about shipping rocket motors unless you got your information from a hazmat shipper who has taken federally mandated hazmat shipping courses and is legally required to know the current rules, all 1400+ pages. :grin:

1.) An individual without written permission from either the USPS or DOT can not ship rocket motors legally. Period. Please don't argue. That's the regulations. Individuals are never asked to return defective motors to the manufacturer because it's illegal.

2.) Any person with prior written approval from the USPS can mail single use rocket motors with not more than 30 grams of propellant, or reload kits with individually packaged reload grains with not more than 30 grams of propellant by Surface Parcel Post in properly labeled packaging. There are no extra charges for this USPS service.

3. a.) All rocket motors, regardless of size, are hazardous Class 1 explosive materials under DOT rules which is what all ground, rail, air and vessel common carriers follow. Class 1 explosives may not be shipped with any other shipments (which means an exclusive explosives truck @~3 per mile) unless they are shipped under a DOT Special Permit which is a separate written approval process. Regardless of subclassification (the number after the decimal point) and compatibility (letters), the shipper of the Class 1 material must pay an additional Hazamt fee in excess of $25 per shipment.

b.) The 2 most common DOT Special Permits are DOT-SP 7887 that reclassifies 1.4S articles containing not more thant 62.5 grams of propellants to 4.1 Flamable solids, and DOT-SP 10996 that reclassifies 1.3C articles containing not more than 1.4 kg of propellant to 1.4C articles. DOT-SP 7887 permits shipping of model rocket motors, and similar propellant weight reloads by common carrier, including UPS. DOT-SP 10996 permits shipping of most high power reload kits by common carrier excluding UPS. All rocket motor manufacturers have at least one of these special permits.

c.) Again these shipments require the payment of a separate hazmat fee in addition to standard shipping charges.

4. Unless you can quote a federal regualtion that contradicts the above infomation, don't argue, move on.

Bob

 

[raohara]

Bob,

Why is UPS excluded from shipping under DOT-SP 10996?

- Rich

 

[tbonerocketeer]

The Simplified Rocket Motor Shipping Rules



3. a.) All rocket motors, regardless of size, are hazardous Class 1 explosive materials under DOT rules which is what all ground, rail, air and vessel common carriers follow. Class 1 explosives may not be shipped with any other shipments (which means an exclusive explosives truck @~3 per mile) unless they are shipped under a DOT Special Permit which is a separate written approval process. Regardless of subclassification (the number after the decimal point) and compatibility (letters), the shipper of the Class 1 material must pay an additional Hazamt fee in excess of $25 per shipment.

Bob

Well, sort of. The hazmat compatibility chart allows 1.3 and 1.4 explosives to ship with some other classes of hazmat, such as 2.2,4.1, and 4.3. 1.4 class can also ship with most other classes with the restriction that if anything leaks, it cannot come into contact with it. I am in the know about this as I am a hazmat driver

 

[beezwax]

Thank you very much for that summary Bob...two thoughts:

1) I think under your 3b section (special permits) you mean to say that 1.4 articles (both S and C) are reclassified to 4.1

2) I think your summary would make a very helpful "sticky" at the start of the Propulsion forum since motor shipping regs seem to be one of those topics with ongoing confusion and disagreement

 

[bobkrech]

Bob,

Why is UPS excluded from shipping under DOT-SP 10996?

- Rich

UPS is much more selective than FedEx. IIRC UPS does not accept 1.4C the last time I checked.

I usually use YRC for DOT-SP explosives, but use FedEx Custom Critical exclusive truck for monopropellants. About $8500 for 3 kg cross country! Ouch.

Bob

 

[bobkrech]

Well, sort of. The hazmat compatibility chart allows 1.3 and 1.4 explosives to ship with some other classes of hazmat, such as 2.2,4.1, and 4.3. 1.4 class can also ship with most other classes with the restriction that if anything leaks, it cannot come into contact with it. I am in the know about this as I am a hazmat driver

As I stated, virtually all 1.3C motors are reclassified as 1.4C under 10996 and 1.4C or S are reclassified as 4.1 under 7887. I agree that when reclassified as 1.4 or 4.1 most of the incompatibilites go away.

The incompatibility issue usually arises with really big motors which have been classified as 1.2 explosives which I understand requires an exclusive truck just like 1.1 materials.

Bob

 

[tbonerocketeer]

UPS is much more selective than FedEx. IIRC UPS does not accept 1.4C the last time I checked.

I usually use YRC for DOT-SP explosives, but use FedEx Custom Critical exclusive truck for monopropellants. About $8500 for 3 kg cross country! Ouch.

Bob

They now ship 1.4C. I closed my account because the rep here sucks.

 

[tbonerocketeer]

As I stated, virtually all 1.3C motors are reclassified as 1.4C under 10996 and 1.4C or S are reclassified as 4.1 under 7887. I agree that when reclassified as 1.4 or 4.1 most of the incompatibilites go away.

The incompatibility issue usually arises with really big motors which have been classified as 1.2 explosives which I understand requires an exclusive truck just like 1.1 materials.

Bob

Well yeah, but I was referring to any 1.3 product(ie CTI 152mm reloads or Professional fireworks). 1.1 does require a dedicated compartment(ie separate trailer or truck)