Update 2/24 received HobbyLinc has F15-0 with cheaper HazMat charge

[BABAR]

Update 2/24, order received with no problems

FYI

Seems like

Estes F15-0 | F15-0 Model Rocket Engine

www.acsupplyco.com

usually has better motor prices than

Hobbylinc

but at least for the F15-0 HobbyLinc hazmat is much less. (Although the price for two motors IS $4 higher)
Estimated Departure From Atlanta, GA : 2/17/2021

​

$7.76​

USPS - Hazmat: 3rd Class Ground Tuesday 2/23 - Thursday 3/4

compared to ACSupply

Orders with "E" and "F" size Rocket Engines will be shipped by **UPS Hazmat Shipping Service ($37.00 fee) only as they are not allowed in the United States Postal System! This $37.00 fee will automatically be added your order at checkout. Note: You will only incur one $37.00 fee per order!

Sirius Rocketry is $8 more per 2 pack and $39 hazmat

Estes Pro Series II F15-0 Engine HAZ [EST 1650] - $24.29 : Sirius Rocketry Online Store, For the Serious Rocketeer!

Sirius Rocketry Online Store Estes Pro Series II F15-0 Engine HAZ [EST 1650] - Estes Pro Series II 29mm F15-0 Engine (2-pack) HAZMAT NOTE: Orders containing this item must be shipped via FedEx Ground HAZMAT and can be shipped within the Continental United States only. A $39.00 HAZMAT fee per...

www.siriusrocketry.biz

I am debating trying to extend my black powder gap staging to a full 6 feet, thinking this may be the motor to do it.

 

[SharkWhisperer]

I buy through A-D BP motors from AC because of his super-low pricing and free (slow) USPS shipping on orders over $100, but Hobbylinc is cheaper for 24/29 E and Fs even with shipping/Hazmat, unless you're buying a whole lot at once.

6-foot gap staging with BP to BP? Unassisted? You have much more faith in the flame-forward abilities of the F15-0 than I do, for sure. Even with a stuffer tube/elongated motor mount. How are you intending to accomplish this?

 

[jadebox]

The F15-0 has 60 grams of propellant, so it cannot be shipped by USPS.

 

[afadeev]

but at least for the F15-0 HobbyLinc hazmat is much less. (Although the price for two motors IS $4 higher)
Estimated Departure From Atlanta, GA : 2/17/2021

​

$7.76​

USPS - Hazmat: 3rd Class Ground Tuesday 2/23 - Thursday 3/4

I strongly suspect that the above quoted shipping price is a mistake, and that HobbyLinc will get back to you with a shipping price correction before the order goes out the door.
BTDT.

 

[BABAR]

I strongly suspect that the above quoted shipping prices is a mistake, and that HobbyLinc will get back to you with a shipping price correction before the order goes out the door.
BTDT.

You are probably right. I will, check it out.

 

[SharkWhisperer]

Dunno. Shipping regs by the privates (FedEx, UPS) and fed laws demarcate single grain propellants of 62.5g, not 60.0 g (exactly what's in F-15s) into a new hazard category for shipping.

Though Estes E's hold half the powder (approximately; not looking it up), recent (maybe 6 months ago) HobbyLinc receipts show total shipping of $8.60 on 15 combined E9s and E12s. Hobby Lobby, a few weeks ago, charged a total shipping rate (FedEx) of about $14 on a $100 motor order that included E12s.

Mind you, no Fs on recent receipts I can find. But when motors get that pricey, I tend to just take a pound of some hot willow BP and go bash out a few of my own in minutes. And then on launch day I wonder why I didn't build the "expensive" E's, too!

 

[UhClem]

Dunno. Shipping regs by the privates (FedEx, UPS) and fed laws demarcate single grain propellants of 62.5g, not 60.0 g (exactly what's in F-15s) into a new hazard category for shipping.

All BP and AP motors are classified as explosives (UN 1.X) for shipping purposes and require that they be shipped as hazardous materials. The USPS carves out a very narrow exception for a few things classified as 1.4S (UN0454 or NA0323). See Pub 52 and Estes MSDS.

 

[AeroTech]

Any assembled single use motor or reload kit grain containing over 30 grams propellant cannot be shipped by USPS. And the motor or propellant must be approved as a 1.4S explosive by the DOT.

 

[shockie]

so why doesn't the manufacturers and the cults get together and do some tests and show that the 30g limit can be safely raised to 62.5g . the almighty BATFE in their infinite wisdom has declared anything below 62.5g as not explosive, why can't the other two hands of the Federal government both agree and adjust their regulations accordingly? stupid FEDGOV. DOT,CPSC,BATFE,PHSMA,USPS .....an alphabet soup of stupidity. Why can't they all be on the same page on this?

 

[tbonerocketeer]

I strongly suspect that the above quoted shipping prices is a mistake, and that HobbyLinc will get back to you with a shipping price correction before the order goes out the door.
BTDT.

Doubtful...in the past they just ship them illegally

 

[afadeev]

Doubtful...in the past they just ship them illegally

That happened to me a few years ago - decent price, no HazMat surcharge, then an email stating "ooops, we forgot, pay-up".
I had cancelled the order in response.

YMMV.

 

[AeroTech]

It actually used to be 62.5 grams many years ago, then USPS tied the limit to a 1.4S UN classification which lowered the weight to 30 grams. Seeing as the DOT has been revoking 1.4S EX-numbers lately unless additional UN 6(c) testing is performed, I’m not sure I want to be the one who tickles that dragon’s tail...

so why doesn't the manufacturers and the cults get together and do some tests and show that the 30g limit can be safely raised to 62.5g . the almighty BATFE in their infinite wisdom has declared anything below 62.5g as not explosive, why can't the other two hands of the Federal government both agree and adjust their regulations accordingly? stupid FEDGOV. DOT,CPSC,BATFE,PHSMA,USPS .....an alphabet soup of stupidity. Why can't they all be on the same page on this?

 

[shockie]

It actually used to be 62.5 grams many years ago, then USPS tied the limit to a 1.4S UN classification which lowered the weight to 30 grams. Seeing as the DOT has been revoking 1.4S EX-numbers lately unless additional UN 6(c) testing is performed, I’m not sure I want to be the one who tickles that dragon’s tail...

see my point exactly....our stupid FEDGOV at work...... this is sorta like the FBI report that said sugar propellant wasn't an explosive.... but the BATFE still classifies sugar propellant as a potassium nitrate explosive.... it boggles the mind of the inconsistency of federal regulations

 

[BABAR]

I strongly suspect that the above quoted shipping price is a mistake, and that HobbyLinc will get back to you with a shipping price correction before the order goes out the door.
BTDT.

Well, order went through the echeckout, we will see!

 

[shreadvector]

Well, order went through the echeckout, we will see!

Hobbylinc has been illegally shipping motors with over 30 grams of propellant via parcel post for many years.

I do not think it is intentional. I think they just do not understand and they mis-classified many products. You can call them and try to educate them if you feel like it. Or maybe someone at Estes will want to do that to keep things 'cool'.

It is not like they label the boxes "Model Airplane Parts"....

 

[SharkWhisperer]

Hobbylinc has been illegally shipping motors with over 30 grams of propellant via parcel post for many years.

I do not think it is intentional. I think they just do not understand and they mis-classified many products. You can call them and try to educate them if you feel like it. Or maybe someone at Estes will want to do that to keep things 'cool'.

It is not like they label the boxes "Model Airplane Parts"....

"Sport rocket motors with 62.5 grams or less of black powder or ammonium perchloratecomposite propellant are classified as Division 1.4 Explosives. Within this overall 1.4 category,motors with more than 30 grams of propellant are classified as Division 1.4C (specifically, as Model Rocket Motor NA0276), while those with 30 grams or less are classified Division 1.4S (Model Rocket Motor NA0323). Most sport rocket manufacturers have a special DOT exemption that gives them permission to ship small quantities of sport rocket motors that are classified 1.4 (62.5 grams or less of propellant) as if these items were a lower hazard category called Flammable Solid (Division 4.1, UN1325). The packaging and labeling for 4.1 materials is less burdensome than for 1.4 materials. Most motors are shipped as Flammable Solids to individuals and hobby stores by the manufacturers and their distributors."

Taken from the NAR site: https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Shipping-Rocket-Motors.pdf

Though dated 2014 and may have changed in 7 years. Tis definitely not a legal document and shouldn't be viewed as such. It also doesn't distinguish authorized commercial distributors from manufacturers, but clearly segregates "individual rocketeers" who are not eligible for this exemption. Though I am no attorney, this doesn't seem like a long history of illegal shipping.

Haven't heard of too many trucks full of rocket motors (or Pyrodex, or Goex, or fireworks in general) blowing up on our highways in recent times.

Pay less for shipping? No or minimal "Hazmat" charges? I'm all in.

 

[shreadvector]

Hobbylinc is not a manufacturer.

 

[SharkWhisperer]

Hobbylinc is not a manufacturer.

Very aware of that. Which is why I clearly highlighted that the NAR summary was defective in mentioning manufacturers and individuals but not distributors, who, if you take the initiative to research just a bit further, can receive the exact same shipping exemptions as manufacturers. Individuals cannot receive those exemptions, obviously.

 

[UhClem]

Those DOT shipping exemptions are what allow them to be shipped via FexEx in a lower hazard class. Shipping without the exemption is much more expensive. (Some motors must ship without the exemption. CTI O8000 motors as I recall have this problem.)

The USPS doesn't care about your DOT exemption.

 

[AeroTech]

The NAR might want to revise that document. The packaging and labeling for 4.1 materials is definitely not less burdensome than for 1.4 materials. And 4.1 materials cannot be shipped via USPS.

The “exemption” (now called a “special permit”) that allows shipment of some 1.4 materials as 4.1 was pursued primarily to make packages of rocket motors that were shipped to young retail customers less alarming to their parents.

"Sport rocket motors with 62.5 grams or less of black powder or ammonium perchloratecomposite propellant are classified as Division 1.4 Explosives. Within this overall 1.4 category,motors with more than 30 grams of propellant are classified as Division 1.4C (specifically, as Model Rocket Motor NA0276), while those with 30 grams or less are classified Division 1.4S (Model Rocket Motor NA0323). Most sport rocket manufacturers have a special DOT exemption that gives them permission to ship small quantities of sport rocket motors that are classified 1.4 (62.5 grams or less of propellant) as if these items were a lower hazard category called Flammable Solid (Division 4.1, UN1325). The packaging and labeling for 4.1 materials is less burdensome than for 1.4 materials. Most motors are shipped as Flammable Solids to individuals and hobby stores by the manufacturers and their distributors."

Taken from the NAR site: https://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Shipping-Rocket-Motors.pdf

Though dated 2014 and may have changed in 7 years. Tis definitely not a legal document and shouldn't be viewed as such. It also doesn't distinguish authorized commercial distributors from manufacturers, but clearly segregates "individual rocketeers" who are not eligible for this exemption. Though I am no attorney, this doesn't seem like a long history of illegal shipping.

Haven't heard of too many trucks full of rocket motors (or Pyrodex, or Goex, or fireworks in general) blowing up on our highways in recent times.

Pay less for shipping? No or minimal "Hazmat" charges? I'm all in.

 

[AeroTech]

The “game changing” exemption/special permit was 10996, that allows certain 1.3 materials to be shipped 1.4, reducing the shipping cost from typically $3,000-$5,000 to under $100. But it has a limit of 3.08 lb/1,400 grams propellant per grain or device.

Those DOT shipping exemptions are what allow them to be shipped via FexEx in a lower hazard class. Shipping without the exemption is much more expensive. (Some motors must ship without the exemption. CTI O8000 motors as I recall have this problem.)

The USPS doesn't care about your DOT exemption.

 

[SharkWhisperer]

The NAR might want to revise that document. The packaging and labeling for 4.1 materials is definitely not less burdensome than for 1.4 materials. And 4.1 materials cannot be shipped via USPS.

The “exemption” (now called a “special permit”) that allows shipment of some 1.4 materials as 4.1 was pursued primarily to make packages of rocket motors that were shipped to young retail customers less alarming to their parents.

My friend, you are full-on active in the business, so I completely defer to you and your knowledge on the topic of shipping rocket motors.

But I'll still search for, and pay, the lowest total price available for any rocket motor I order--the legal onus is on the shipper, not naive me.

 

[BABAR]

Order received today, including the F15-0 motors. No issues encountered as far as I can tell,

ACSupply definitely has better prices, but at least for these motors the HazMat was much lower for HobbyLinc

 

[SharkWhisperer]

Order received today, including the F15-0 motors. No issues encountered as far as I can tell,

ACSupply definitely has better prices, but at least for these motors the HazMat was much lower for HobbyLinc

Same, same. Order out yesterday. 8 Fs and 3 Es. Shipping under $9.

 

[shockie]

Hobbylinc has been illegally shipping motors with over 30 grams of propellant via parcel post for many years.

I do not think it is intentional. I think they just do not understand and they mis-classified many products. You can call them and try to educate them if you feel like it. Or maybe someone at Estes will want to do that to keep things 'cool'.

It is not like they label the boxes "Model Airplane Parts"....

I get it!

 

[shockie]

it's postal regulations that limit Model Rocket engines to 30g. SP-7887 allows shipping of both 30g and up to 62.5g model rocket engines,whether they be BP or Relaodables.

34 Mailability by Hazard Class | Postal Explorer

pe.usps.com

341.22 Mailable Explosives
The following specific types of explosives may be mailed only when the applicable conditions are met. Full responsibility rests with the mailer to comply with Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) regulations before mailing.

Toy Propellant Devices. The proper shipping name for a toy propellant device is “model rocket motor” or “igniters.” A toy propellant device assigned UN0454 or NA0323 and classed as a Division 1.4S explosive is eligible for mailing in domestic mail via surface transportation only when prior written permission has been obtained from the manager, Product Classification, USPS Headquarters, Washington, DC. A device approved for mailing is subject to the following conditions:
Each device must be ignitable by electrical means only; contain no more than 30 g (1.07 oz) of propellant; and produce less than 80 newton seconds of total impulse with thrust duration not less than 0.050 second.

The "mailer" above is the ATQ/Estes distributor, i.e. HobbyLinc, etc

Estes or ATQ distributors are party to SP-7887 as long as they have a hazmat trained person to ship.

Section 8 of SP-7887 states that " A person (ie a company) who receives a shipment of model rocket motor kits classed under this special permit BUT IS NOT A GRANTEE (the GRANTEE here is either ATQ or Estes, they both are party to SP-7887) , MAY REOFFER the kits for transportation in conformance with this special permit PROVIDED NO modifications or changes are made to the inner packaging and they are reoffered for transportation with this special permit and the HMR.

HazMat Special Permits Search | PHMSA

www.phmsa.dot.gov

Obviously from reading the above, NO distributor should be shipping anything over 30g via USPS. This includes BOTH BP and Composites.

attached is the FedEx Hazmat Shipping Table Info

the 51 is exceptions of Federal Regulations of CFR 49 173.*** and the 62 is Packaging Requirements see CFR49 173.51 and 49CFR173.62

Any company that ships model rocket motors > 30 g but <= to 62.5 g is supposed to have a hazmat account with FedEx and also provide proof that they have a hazmat trained shipper in house.

HTH

If I'm incorrect on any this, I'm sure I will be promptly corrected.

Edit: Found the following in the Fedex service guide:

Dangerous Goods
Accessible Dangerous Goods. Certain dangerous goods must be accessible during
transit. You can ship these accessible dangerous goods using FedEx First Overnight, FedEx
Priority Overnight, FedEx First Overnight Freight, FedEx 1Day Freight, FedEx International
First (U.S. inbound), FedEx International Priority, FedEx International Economy (except to
Puerto Rico), FedEx International Priority Freight, FedEx International Economy Freight
(except to Puerto Rico), FedEx International Premium and FedEx International Express
Freight® services.
Class 1.4 Explosives

Notice it doesn't say Fedex Ground. Not sure what this means.

 

[AeroTech]

DOT-SP 7887 has nothing whatsoever to do with shipping under postal regulations. To be eligible for USPS shipping, a model rocket motor must be classified as 1.4S by the DOT. Flammable solids are not permitted to be shipped USPS.

 

[BABAR]

Received