Yeah, they kinda are the only two. Facebook ? Hmm.... I thought Neil was basically supporting your position. If you've experienced it I'd suggest dealing with the specific perpetrators on the specific forums where it occurs. Gotta say, your "us and them" position is not wildly popular.
Decline of Estes, again.
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Arthur, you also went to Facebook and claimed to get that exact treatment here. Now you're claiming it never happened here. So it's really hard to a) deal with your constantly changing story, and b) take you seriously.
ArthurAstroCam
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How does this matter to you, in the grand scheme of things? What is the significant impact, exactly?
I suspect it matters to most of us when someone jumps back and forth between groups trying to stir things up by making false accusations.
Stirring divisions in a pretty small and shrinking community, in a manner that I increasingly suspect is based in half-truths or lies and appears deliberate, doesn’t sit well with me.
I should also add, @ArthurAstroCam , that I am not judging you for flying exclusively low-power and solo.
What I personally find objectionable is that you speak judgmentally about things with which you have very little or no experience, fail to give others the benefit of the doubt, change your story when you contribute on different platforms with the apparent aim to pit them against one another, ignore the norms of discussion on this site, and generally display an “I know more than you” attitude when it’s clear that you don’t.
It is very obvious to me that you know exactly the line to toe. Rubbing people the wrong way through passive-aggressive and manipulative behavior without directly breaking the forum rules or saying anything that would obviously result in an instant ban. I.e. persistent low-level trolling.
I’ve made good-faith attempts to reason with you, discuss productively, and convince you to improve your attitude so that we can be friendly.
However, if this behavior of yours continues, I will officially express my concerns to the forum mods via private message and I will encourage others to do so as well. This is the second thread I’ve seen this behavior occur in and it’s already very old.
I might not be the most established or respected or skilled user here, but I love flying rockets and sharing that experience with others too much to not say anything when hostile and disruptive users jump into the fray.
What I personally find objectionable is that you speak judgmentally about things with which you have very little or no experience, fail to give others the benefit of the doubt, change your story when you contribute on different platforms with the apparent aim to pit them against one another, ignore the norms of discussion on this site, and generally display an “I know more than you” attitude when it’s clear that you don’t.
It is very obvious to me that you know exactly the line to toe. Rubbing people the wrong way through passive-aggressive and manipulative behavior without directly breaking the forum rules or saying anything that would obviously result in an instant ban. I.e. persistent low-level trolling.
I’ve made good-faith attempts to reason with you, discuss productively, and convince you to improve your attitude so that we can be friendly.
However, if this behavior of yours continues, I will officially express my concerns to the forum mods via private message and I will encourage others to do so as well. This is the second thread I’ve seen this behavior occur in and it’s already very old.
I might not be the most established or respected or skilled user here, but I love flying rockets and sharing that experience with others too much to not say anything when hostile and disruptive users jump into the fray.
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thobin
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This forum is very civil compared to others, I have had some very heated exchanges on this forum and so far it has never devolved into insults about your mother. There are a few insufferable know it alls but that comes with every hobby. I don't agree with most the comments in this thread related to the subject but I like a good healthy debate some might call it trolling but is never my intention, I hope I made some of you think about the future of Estes. I have adjusted my stance after reading more and more, I still see the trend that worries me, will the old guard builders have a place in it or not? I have no misconceptions as why things are headed in the direction they are and if you actually read what I said you will know that. I do like the idea of this designer series. Have fun, fly what you love.
TA
TA
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100% accurate.
That is the truth. I usually avoid feeding the trolls even if they do not think they are trolls.
thobin
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Well to many are to soft and if the opinion of the OP doesn't conform with the prescribed view of the day they are labeled as a troll or a heretic.
TA
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In this case, he's gone on other boards and social media locations, saying the same thing, "This place is good, that place is bad". In other words, a classic troll move.
Can't have it both ways, Beavis!
I am not specifically trying to say he is a Troll, but he is engendering a response that is similar.
dr wogz
Fly caster
There was one FB rocketry group that was very right wing, and very nasty / opinionated / childish.. quickly jumped off that one..
but then a gain, the downside to this forum, and all other social media platform which rely on the written (typed) word, is that nuances, sarcasm, inflection ,etc.. doesn't come thru, so it's hard to tell if someone is joking, being crass, being helpful, or just being a [male body part].. 2 or 3 TRF members immediately come to mind, as my first few experiences with them seems condescending & 'snobby'. but I soon leaned that's how they are in real life. they mean no malice, they are just being upfront (blunt maybe) with their reply. (But there have been a few where were just jerks..)
but then a gain, the downside to this forum, and all other social media platform which rely on the written (typed) word, is that nuances, sarcasm, inflection ,etc.. doesn't come thru, so it's hard to tell if someone is joking, being crass, being helpful, or just being a [male body part].. 2 or 3 TRF members immediately come to mind, as my first few experiences with them seems condescending & 'snobby'. but I soon leaned that's how they are in real life. they mean no malice, they are just being upfront (blunt maybe) with their reply. (But there have been a few where were just jerks..)
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Feeding them is one thing, however, I think a clear but not excessively combative explanation of what behavior bothers me is only fair. I also make it a point to attempt to resolve personal issues personally before appealing to somebody else. I know the world is far less forgiving right now, and it’s very easy to get hung out to dry without fully understanding why. I don’t want to put anybody in that situation.
Even though that looks extremely unlikely here and I believe this user fully understands what he’s doing, I view it as a matter of principle. People deserve clear communication and a fair shot to demonstrate improvement, regardless of circumstance.
I’m not, however, above allowing somebody else to handle it or adopting an “ignore and communicate with the mod team” approach if that fails to yield a result.
I certainly don’t think I’m “too soft” if I’m disciplined enough to do these things without losing my cool. There was a time when I may have allowed myself to get out of hand, but not today.
thobin
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I'm not defending him but you have to be diligent not to label some one a troll for having a difference of opinion, just remember people that believed the sun revolved around the earth were heretics in the day. I was called a troll for my opinion in this very thread. It is odd he would profess different opinions on the same subject on different forums, at least a credibility issue.
TA
TA
thobin
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Right wing has nothing to do with it, Iv received plenty of bile from the other side as well, no one is immune. Like anyone from any side is not opinionated and childish, that is just the internet. Bringing up politics in a non political discussion is a blatant jab or ignorant one at best. I'd appreciate you not giving the mods a reason to shut this thread down.
TA
It wasn’t a matter of opinion in Arthur’s case, it was a matter of attitude and behavior, both here and on other platforms. If you want specifics, see earlier contributions in this thread, and be sure to read them carefully.
If it still doesn’t make sense why I have reached my conclusion or if you still disagree, I’d be happy to elaborate further in a private message. I would rather not derail this thread further by repeating myself and/or airing more dirty laundry.
It looks to me like your case is much different. I think it should have been addressed differently. Even so, please do not obfuscate the current ongoing issue by wrongly attributing it to a difference of opinion. I’m a big boy, I can and often do handle disagreements maturely. The same goes for many others here. Unwarranted hostility and what appears to be deliberate disruption are a different matter entirely.
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dr wogz
Fly caster
the one I was referring to, had an 'anything goes' policy, especially on a particular day. So it was encouraged, and teh feed was just flooded with anti-left memes..
I do agree that both sides do make comments & contributions to support their side. But when it's allowed and somewhat encouraged, I feel it's time to leave..
Wow -- I was wondering why this thread kept popping up to the top of the most recent activity pile again and again... After reading a couple of pages of the most recent posts...
This is tame compared to the web of the 90's, lol.
I like to surround myself with people who lift me up and inspire me. When they don’t, I block them.
MidOH
Well-Known Member
The hardcore leftist mentality is a bit sickening here. It's a bit lighter, with every CA poster on ignore, but it still ruins what is an otherwise decent forum.
It also makes the entire hobby less approachable. If I go to a nice group launch, am I going to have to shield my kids from sicko's?
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I like where Estes is at. There's plenty of kits. Who cares if they make a bunch of kiddy plastic to? It's not hurting you. Why so serious.
The Star Orbiter is easier to build than an Alpha. Cheap. And dual deployment capable. Sometimes I build these nice, but usually I build them cheap expecting them to fly away.
I also wish that the Star Orbiter's laser cut tube holes, for the fins, was available on more rockets. Those slots make it impossible to put the fins in crooked. If you're off a few degrees radially, no big deal, it'll fly fine. Those nice tight slots keep the fins perfectly vertical and parallel with the tube. If other kits had such a thing, they'd be way easier to build. Any kid can build a straight flying Star Orbiter. Estes should consider offering more models with TTB fins pre cut to ease builds for kids. And the Star Orbiters coupler is a great place to glue your kevlar cord down, before joining the tubes. More split tube models would be easier for kids to build, because you can put the tri fold into the coupler before tube assembly. It must be only the motor size that puts that the Orbiter into the ''advanced'' skill levels. Only the decals on this rocket are challenging.
The High Flyer XL is everything that my D12-5 BT60 rockets, from my childhood (Magnum and Raven come to mind first) wished that they were. Wouldn't it be awesome if the High Flyer XL came with TTB fin tabs, laser cut slots in the tube, and a 24mm spin on motor retainer?
The Black Brant 2 is a fun cheap scale rocket with excellent performance. Even if you don't care about the scale bit, it's decal pack makes for a great high vis contrast, that's very simple to paint. Many of my Brants end up red or Alpha 3 orange.
The Alpha is still one of our favorites, but we use a full length BT50 tube instead. And caution tape streamer, or cut out most of the center of the chute.
Lately, most of our low powered rockets are built from Estes parts, and thin plywood. We order packs of bt50, 55, 60, tubes and cones. Spacers and motor mounts as needed. Kevlar string, and caution tape streamers or Apogee chutes.
For larger fields we use Mach1 kits, which are more complete than ever, if you select all of the suggested options.
The only thing that Estes needs to do, is burn that darn fin guide jig. I have no idea how such a thing, could get so much worse over the years. Order the right Mach1 fin guide, and any kid can build a kit with perfectly straight fins.
And I wish that the scale models and nicer models with the water release decals, came with two sets of decals incase you mess one up. I love those decals, until I tear one. I can't imagine that they're expensive?
It also makes the entire hobby less approachable. If I go to a nice group launch, am I going to have to shield my kids from sicko's?
------------------
I like where Estes is at. There's plenty of kits. Who cares if they make a bunch of kiddy plastic to? It's not hurting you. Why so serious.
The Star Orbiter is easier to build than an Alpha. Cheap. And dual deployment capable. Sometimes I build these nice, but usually I build them cheap expecting them to fly away.
I also wish that the Star Orbiter's laser cut tube holes, for the fins, was available on more rockets. Those slots make it impossible to put the fins in crooked. If you're off a few degrees radially, no big deal, it'll fly fine. Those nice tight slots keep the fins perfectly vertical and parallel with the tube. If other kits had such a thing, they'd be way easier to build. Any kid can build a straight flying Star Orbiter. Estes should consider offering more models with TTB fins pre cut to ease builds for kids. And the Star Orbiters coupler is a great place to glue your kevlar cord down, before joining the tubes. More split tube models would be easier for kids to build, because you can put the tri fold into the coupler before tube assembly. It must be only the motor size that puts that the Orbiter into the ''advanced'' skill levels. Only the decals on this rocket are challenging.
The High Flyer XL is everything that my D12-5 BT60 rockets, from my childhood (Magnum and Raven come to mind first) wished that they were. Wouldn't it be awesome if the High Flyer XL came with TTB fin tabs, laser cut slots in the tube, and a 24mm spin on motor retainer?
The Black Brant 2 is a fun cheap scale rocket with excellent performance. Even if you don't care about the scale bit, it's decal pack makes for a great high vis contrast, that's very simple to paint. Many of my Brants end up red or Alpha 3 orange.
The Alpha is still one of our favorites, but we use a full length BT50 tube instead. And caution tape streamer, or cut out most of the center of the chute.
Lately, most of our low powered rockets are built from Estes parts, and thin plywood. We order packs of bt50, 55, 60, tubes and cones. Spacers and motor mounts as needed. Kevlar string, and caution tape streamers or Apogee chutes.
For larger fields we use Mach1 kits, which are more complete than ever, if you select all of the suggested options.
The only thing that Estes needs to do, is burn that darn fin guide jig. I have no idea how such a thing, could get so much worse over the years. Order the right Mach1 fin guide, and any kid can build a kit with perfectly straight fins.
And I wish that the scale models and nicer models with the water release decals, came with two sets of decals incase you mess one up. I love those decals, until I tear one. I can't imagine that they're expensive?
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thobin
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The Star Orbiter is by far the best rocket I have in my fleet right now. I would agree that the advertised skill level sometimes reflects a rocket’s size more than its difficulty of assembly. It always flies perfectly straight with hardly any roll, and it never crashes. E and F motors work great, and I’m hoping to get it to the top of the G range without re-kitting it. I put up a build thread not too long ago.
If you’re ever in need of decals, send Estes an email. They replaced my Goblin decals for free with a really nice white-background set, and you might get the same treatment if you’re lucky. Now I always scan them before putting them in the water. I’ve got a nice scan of the Goblin and Hi-Flier XL decals that I’d be happy to DM to you if you’re ever in need. Maybe a Star Orbiter set too, although I’d have to double-check.
Unless, of course, you don’t see any of this on account of having me muted. I am from California, after all. Powegian and proud of it. We’re not all the same, and I think the hobby is better if we communicate and share freely with one another instead of being shutting each other out on account of locale.
MidOH
Well-Known Member
No, your posts have been fine, TTBOMK.
I love the Orbiter. I usually also slot a paper towel tube, if I find a stiff one, and epoxy it inside ahead of the motor mount to strengthen that area. I actually took the time to paint the ''decals'' onto one that I wrecked. Sadly, that rocket was jinxed, and flew away.
Next one will get the Raven's paint scheme, for nostalgias sake.
I love the Orbiter. I usually also slot a paper towel tube, if I find a stiff one, and epoxy it inside ahead of the motor mount to strengthen that area. I actually took the time to paint the ''decals'' onto one that I wrecked. Sadly, that rocket was jinxed, and flew away.
Next one will get the Raven's paint scheme, for nostalgias sake.
If I ever I decide to get a second one, possibly as a result of a CATO or something comparable, that will definitely be a modification for the replacement. It came back from its first launch day with damage along the spiral, which other owners have also noticed. I think it the design needs some stiffening.
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You're afraid of hardcore leftists at a rocket launch? What is it that you're in fear of, exactly?
