Big Daddy Lawn Darts... Show of Hands Please.

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No Kit should require any mods to fly safely, that defeats the main benefit of buying a kit.
Agreed... However, adding tape is part of the instructions, and I suspect it is what is being missed by so many who's kits end up coming in ballistically.

I *REALLY* that Estes would do the right thing and fix that nosecone before someone gets hurt. Just because nobody has been hurt, yet, doesn't mean it can't happen.
 
Not sure if you were responding to my last post or someone else. My Bigger Daddy used to be a Big Daddy kit. But after it took it on the nose so to speak, I cut off the damaged section and made it 40" long into my BIGGER Daddy.

I'm new to rocketry so my mods are my attempt to find the right motor and balance for the modded rocket. From my 1st attempt at Open Rocket, it seems I do need some extra weight forward so it won't arc over into the wind.

I'm open to any suggestions. I will be trying a D12-4 on my next launch but it won't be probably until later in March.
Don
Your Bigger Daddy is no longer that, its a Estes Leviathan, no way it should ever fly on an E12.
 
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, , , Don, you should download my sim of the BD, and alter it to match your needs... , , ,
Thanks for the SIM K'Tesh. I changed the length so that the total length is 40" and added the D12-3 motors to mine. But I still have to add the inner 40" long x 24mm diameter ejection tube and the stuffer stop 4" up from the exhuast port made from a 1" section of a spent C11 motor. I also have a plywood plate on the bottom of the NC and a center bolt under it to add.
Don
 

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OK. Now that it has flown on an E12, what should it fly on, a D12-4? That's my plan.
Don
If its 40" long, it nearly doubled in weight if not tripled, you need bigger motors F's or G's, some CTI E's might be safe to fly on, but high thrust F and G motors will be your friend.
 
If its 40" long, it nearly doubled in weight if not tripled, you need bigger motors F's or G's, some CTI E's might be safe to fly on, but high thrust F and G motors will be your friend.
How about an Aerotech E30? It would be easy to put this in the sim and check it out.
I haven't flown an E30 in a long time but back then it really made my Estes Phoenix Missile perform well.
 
If its 40" long, it nearly doubled in weight if not tripled, you need bigger motors F's or G's, some CTI E's might be safe to fly on, but high thrust F and G motors will be your friend.
I don't understand why I would want a more powerful motor. The rocket went almost out of sight with the E12-6. I'd prefer it not go that high and deploy the chute sooner than the last time. I think I posted the YT of the flight on the last page. If you watch it, you'll see it went plenty high.

A D12-3 will not go as high and hopefully deploy the chute much higher than the last flight with the C12. Or am I not understanding these motors? I can see where an F or G motor is going to take it higher thus allowing the rocket more altitude to deploy the chute, but it may be in the next county when it comes down.
Don
 
I don't understand why I would want a more powerful motor. The rocket went almost out of sight with the E12-6. I'd prefer it not go that high and deploy the chute sooner than the last time. I think I posted the YT of the flight on the last page. If you watch it, you'll see it went plenty high.

A D12-3 will not go as high and hopefully deploy the chute much higher than the last flight with the C12. Or am I not understanding these motors? I can see where an F or G motor is going to take it higher thus allowing the rocket more altitude to deploy the chute, but it may be in the next county when it comes down.
Don
Run the OR sims for YOUR rocket as built.
 
How about an Aerotech E30? It would be easy to put this in the sim and check it out.
I haven't flown an E30 in a long time but back then it really made my Estes Phoenix Missile perform well.
I'm planning on trying the RELOADABLE motors once I'm comfortable with just launching and recovering my rockets with the ESTES motors I have. A couple of weeks ago I didn't know RELOADABLES existed.
My original BD kit was setup stock and would only accept 24mm x 2.75" long motors. After a hard nose in dive, and an extension, I've rebuilt it to take the E size 3.8" long motors. I think that means it will also take an ESTES E size length motor and a RMS 24/40 Casing. I don't own an RMS 24/40 CASE yet but that would be the next step.
Don
 
Run the OR sims for YOUR rocket as built.
Here are 2 OR sims that I redid today after they were redone by 2 others on Rocketry Forum. Their redo is based on the original ORK file I posted here and in another thread, today. I redid them within the past few hours, but yesterday was the first time I've ever used the program. So I'm not sure what the sims are going to tell me.
Don
 

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Here are 2 OR sims that I redid today after they were redone by 2 others on Rocketry Forum. Their redo is based on the original ORK file I posted here and in another thread, today. I redid them within the past few hours, but yesterday was the first time I've ever used the program. So I'm not sure what the sims are going to tell me.
Don
What length of rail or rod are you using to launch off off? The sim says a 39" rod/rail. A E18W reload, E28T reload or E30T single use (all Aerotech motors in the 24/40 case or are single use), will get the rocket off the pad at about 70fps which is good and a flight to ~750 which is resonable, and a 5 second delay (reloads have delays that may be adjusted down to 4 seconds). The Estes motors are marginal IMO as A) they don't get off the pad quick enough except in very low wind conditions, and B) the delays are not adjustable, the D12-3 has a good delay for that motor, but the E12 needs to be a 4 second delay, either way the rail exit velocity is too low and needs to be a bit faster.

Edit: forgot to ask what the zero mass mass component was at the rear of the rocket?
 
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What length of rail or rod are you using to launch off off? The sim says a 39" rod/rail. A E18W reload, E28T reload or E30T single use (all Aerotech motors in the 24/40 case or are single use), will get the rocket off the pad at about 70fps which is good and a flight to ~750 which is resonable, and a 5 second delay (reloads have delays that may be adjusted down to 4 seconds). The Estes motors are marginal IMO as A) they don't get off the pad quick enough except in very low wind conditions, and B) the delays are not adjustable, the D12-3 has a good delay for that motor, but the E12 needs to be a 4 second delay, either way the rail exit velocity is too low and needs to be a bit faster.

Edit: forgot to ask what the zero mass mass component was at the rear of the rocket?
The rod is 3/16".

Without opening OR, I would guess that zero mass item must be the plastic screw-on motor retainer. But I changed it to 30g the last time I looked at it. On the last launch with the E12-6 motor, I noticed the BD was not that stable on the stand. I already upgraded to the 12V launch controller, so I guess the bigger 002238 – Porta-Pad E® Launch Pad for $33.99, or the 003552 – Pro Series II™ Launch Pad for $49.99 1/4" launch rod pad will be next. But not this month.

That will require replacing the top launch lug which on my rocket which is a straw section reinforced with electrical tape to hold them on. I added a 2nd one to the extension main Pro-Series II 3" tube about 2" below the NC.
Don
 
The rod is 3/16".

Without opening OR, I would guess that zero mass item must be the plastic screw-on motor retainer. But I changed it to 30g the last time I looked at it. On the last launch with the E12-6 motor, I noticed the BD was not that stable on the stand. I already upgraded to the 12V launch controller, so I guess the bigger 002238 – Porta-Pad E® Launch Pad for $33.99, or the 003552 – Pro Series II™ Launch Pad for $49.99 1/4" launch rod pad will be next. But not this month.

That will require replacing the top launch lug which on my rocket which is a straw section reinforced with electrical tape to hold them on. I added a 2nd one to the extension main Pro-Series II 3" tube about 2" below the NC.
Don
Honestly you are getting into the territory of 1/4" launch rods, due to length and motor requirements. I would consider stepping up to a Micro rail or better yet a Mini rail (20mm rail, railbuttons.com sells the rail buttons for both) which are available on Amazon.
 
I'm planning on trying the RELOADABLE motors once I'm comfortable with just launching and recovering my rockets with the ESTES motors I have
There is nothing wrong with that- I've used the 24-40 case myself. There are pros and cons to the reloadable. Many people buy the casing so they can save money but it takes a lot of launches to just break even. It takes time to assemble the motor prior to a launch but it is rewarding to assemble the motor yourself and then have a successful launch. For our discussion of powering your rocket I think the E28 and the E30 would be fairly interchangeable, and even if you do buy the casing there is no shame in also buying single use motors sometimes.
 
Thanks for the replies. Can someone provide a link to a better launch pad that has at least a 1/4" rod for my Bigger Daddy (Leviathan) and doesn't need lugs other than the plastic straw tube design? Even plans for a rig I can build with simple tools would be fine, no welding, cutting metal, etc.

Also does someone have an ORK file for the stock Big Daddy they could provide?
Thanks,
Don
 
Thanks for the replies. Can someone provide a link to a better launch pad that has at least a 1/4" rod for my Bigger Daddy (Leviathan) and doesn't need lugs other than the plastic straw tube design? Even plans for a rig I can build with simple tools would be fine, no welding, cutting metal, etc.

Also does someone have an ORK file for the stock Big Daddy they could provide?
Thanks,
Don
I'm on my phone right now so I can't attach links very easily. Do a search for K'Tesh's OpenRocket Files.

And can we get back to BDs lawndarting? This thread is all about how the kit is a hazard when the instructions are not followed to the letter, thanks to the poor design of that nosecone.
 
And can we get back to BDs lawndarting? This thread is all about how the kit is a hazard when the instructions are not followed to the letter, thanks to the poor design of that nosecone.

And after this long there it is, the reason for the occasional Big Daddy Lawn Dart. Why do we see BD lawn darts...because its a very popular kit, there are so many sold and flown that it has a higher percentage of lawn darts. When built and flown by the instructions its as safe as any other rocket. AFAIK its the only rocket using that particular nosecone that gets the "reputation" it has. In the last 4 years of SodBlasters there has only be a couple of BD Lawn Darts I have seen, and we might see a dozen BD flights per day due to the kits popularity.
 
And after this long there it is, the reason for the occasional Big Daddy Lawn Dart. Why do we see BD lawn darts...because its a very popular kit, there are so many sold and flown that it has a higher percentage of lawn darts. When built and flown by the instructions its as safe as any other rocket. AFAIK its the only rocket using that particular nosecone that gets the "reputation" it has. In the last 4 years of SodBlasters there has only be a couple of BD Lawn Darts I have seen, and we might see a dozen BD flights per day due to the kits popularity.
It seems that too many people are missing the step that instructs them to wrap tape around the NC to improve the fit, and there's nothing telling anyone about how to tell the difference between too loose, and too tight. Combined with the ramp that vents the gasses when drag separation occurs this kit has a serious flaw. It'd be easy enough to fix (eliminate the ramp)(easy... not necessarily cheap), and at the same time make the instruction to add tape less vague and easy for someone to miss, but until that happens, I'm certain this is an accident waiting to happen. And if/when it does... I'm sure that any halfway decent lawyer will find these threads, and try to subpoena me to testify on the behalf of the victim. My time in China isn't going to be forever, and I will quite likely be able to be found.
 
I had a taped fit that worked for a handful of flights but I finally bit the dust on a D12. A little tape and CA will get her back in shape. In the mean time I did the usually bulkhead mod. With a #6 eye screw and 1/8” basswood it’s actually 0.3 oz lighter.
Preemptively modding my doorknob although 24/40 aerotech charges always separate that nose cone.
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I'm happy with the D12-3 engine, and the mods I did to the nose cone. A plywood bottom and an extended ejection tube seem to pretty much guarantee NC separation, a good chute deployment and NO SCORCHING of the chute. I haven't done anymore launches since April so it's limited data. For now I'll stick with the D12-3s.

 
I had a taped fit that worked for a handful of flights but I finally bit the dust on a D12. A little tape and CA will get her back in shape. In the mean time I did the usually bulkhead mod. With a #6 eye screw and 1/8” basswood it’s actually 0.3 oz lighter.
Preemptively modding my doorknob although 24/40 aerotech charges always separate that nose cone.
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I just did the same yesterday from 10 year old build and I swear I'm just seeing this, lol!!!
 

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You can probably put together something effectively identical to the 003552 – Pro Series II™ Launch Pad for about $20 in materials from Home Depot.
I just went to Coles and bought one pc rods. 6 ft 1/4", 3 foot of 1/8" and 3/16" zinc rolled steel rods(dont get brass!!). I hate those two pc rods. And those rods fit into the Porta pad 2 I have. When I was a kid my dad built a launch stand with a plate of 1/4" steel about 16" x 16", with a 1/4" dal rod in the middle with braces at the base to insure it went straight up. Heavy, didn't shrug for Super Big Bertha launches and was pretty much indestructible for about 5 bux worth of supplies and maybe 20 mins build time.. Need to make another one of those.
 
Sorry to necropost. For those who have put in a bulkhead inside the nosecone at the top of the shoulder... does someone commercially sell a proper sized bulkhead, or am I going to have to cut one out and sand+fit it?
 
For those who have put in a bulkhead inside the nosecone at the top of the shoulder... does someone commercially sell a proper sized bulkhead, or am I going to have to cut one out and sand+fit it?
I have always cut my own, as I have a hole saw that fits my drill -- but if you're looking for blukheads as a "for sale items", I'm going to suggest erockets.biz as they have the biggest inventory of spare parts I can think of.
 
FYI: I am thinking of an "intentional" lawn-darting Big Daddy.

I'm considering a slight upscale Big Daddy, using 4" tube, although I may just say "screw it" and buy another Estes 3" Daddy -- but I'm going to make it 29mm at least and use plywood rings -- because I'm building the entire fin can to be a spool.

I then cut out the bottom of the pre-cut fin slots in the body tube, so the whole spool can slide out of the body. The motor tube is long enough to reach the bottom of the plastic nose cone. Glue the nosecone into the body tube, attach Kevlar to the nosecone's "hook", then attach the other end to the motor mount. Wrap the parachute around the upper end of the 29mm motor tube.

Flies up normally, but when the ejection charge fires, the entire fin can "spool" comes flying out the back end since it was never glued in, and you have a rear-eject Big Daddy, parachuting down, but nose first.
 
Sorry to necropost. For those who have put in a bulkhead inside the nosecone at the top of the shoulder... does someone commercially sell a proper sized bulkhead, or am I going to have to cut one out and sand+fit it?
I did not see any reason to cut the stock nosecone. I just epoxied a bulkhead to the base of the NC. The hole in the bottom of my bulkhead is for the explosive gas charge to go inside the NC and push it off. I ran a 24mm tube all the way up to go inside the NC. Wherever you put your bulkhead, just below the should, or at the bottom, it will stop gases from escaping out the slanted bottom part. That's b/c the gases will never get to the slanted section of the NC bottom.

The only problem you might have is getting the NC fitted so that it's not too tight or loose in the body. Twisting it till you find the right fit seems to work.
Don
 

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