Are dip your own lighters regulated?

[icyclops]

One prisoner says to the other….
”hey buddy, what are you in here for?”

The other prisoner says “for dipping my own igniters”.
”What about you?”

”For tearing the labels off my mattress”.

 

[Conway Stevens]

Copper thermite is notorious for not liking confinement. My understanding--I've never used it but have spoken with those who have--is that confinement greater than a layer or so of cigarette paper can often go boom. I'd rather wait for a second or three for the motor to come to full pressure than to use a starter that has a fair chance of destroying motor and/or rocket.

A good friend of mine would often retort with "Kiss my thumb!" when irritated. He was working with copper thermite and thought he was safe. They had to graft skin on the thumb. Three guesses as to where the skin came from....

Best -- Terry

Terry... I know the said Texan who said this and where they grafted from. lol. Heard from him directly about his brush with this incident at the Xprize event.

I do utilize Thermite for larger motors but you have to have respect for what your using and common sense.

 

[teepot]

I know the stuff is shock sensitive. I've used it as .22 rimfire sensitive exploding targets.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Tim and Fred,
I understand your concern for your friend. My post was not about that incident though, but about the matter being discussed, dipping igniters. At no time did I refer to that other incident and if that other incident hadn’t happened, I suspect neither of you would have any problem with what I said or how I said it. You are currently hypersensitive of this subject and defensive of your friend. Nevertheless, if anything I said diminishes John’s will to recover, I am truly sorry.
The OP solely asked the question of legal risks of making your own igniters. And as far as I know the OP asked the question without any knowledge of the incident that has you guys very rightfully concerned about your friends well being and recovery. It’s irresponsible to discuss legal risks while staying quiet about actual physical risk of injury.
I’m sorry your concern for your friend leads you to feel that my statement was intentionally insensitive. It was not. Yes, John’s accident was fresh in my mind when I responded and I definitely responded differently than I might have otherwise. You see, we warn people about standing too close to motors. We warn people about clearing the area around the pad when launching. We make all kinds of warnings and for the most part we are successful at preventing serious accidents, but John’s accident opened my eyes to the very real risks that accompany igniter testing, risks which I hadn’t given a lot of thought. John’s post about how his accident happened (I felt) was very brave in admitting a simple mistake that led to his severe burns. His post was actually what led me to be more direct in suggesting safe practices to test igniters, not as rules for the Tripoli Safety Codes, but as practices that should be promoted by the manufacturers of igniter kits and taught by mentors. Tripoli has over 5,000 members and NAR has well over 8,000 now and although research motors are only flown by Tripoli L2 or higher members, members of both organizations can conduct research on igniters. If you review anything I have written you will see (I hope) that at no time did I demean John or say anything that was demeaning or non supportive of him. Whenever I have had to suggest safe practices I did so without using him as an example. But it’s extremely important to understand that whenever an accident happens, that’s when people are most receptive to the lessons that accident taught.

We all talk about how our hobby is one bad accident away from being regulated out of existence.
Usually we talk about the possibility of an innocent spectator being speared by a rocket, but what I have seen is that the greatest risk to our hobby is fire. Incidents involving fire, including fatalities, have affected our largest manufacturers and many of our members. I’ve been present at a launch where a burn victim was flown by helicopter to a burn center in another state. People don’t always realize it but the human body is a rich fuel source when exposed to high temperatures. Our bodies have a layer of fat that is a fuel. So an admonition not to set yourself on fire is a very real, albeit graphic, warning of what can happen, based on my actual concerns, not an insensitive flippant remark. I believe everyone in our hobby who intends to experiment with energetic materials needs to understand that mechanism of damage that can so grievously cause injury. It’s only by understanding the magnitude of risk that we calibrate our safe practices accurately.

 

[ksaves2]

Copper thermite is notorious for not liking confinement. My understanding--I've never used it but have spoken with those who have--is that confinement greater than a layer or so of cigarette paper can often go boom. I'd rather wait for a second or three for the motor to come to full pressure than to use a starter that has a fair chance of destroying motor and/or rocket.

A good friend of mine would often retort with "Kiss my thumb!" when irritated. He was working with copper thermite and thought he was safe. They had to graft skin on the thumb. Three guesses as to where the skin came from....

Best -- Terry

Hi Terry et al.!

I just took the igniter/"starter" components and stupidhead shook them until thoroughly mixed and lightly put them in the ultracentrifuge container that had a 12V starter epoxied in. I did not pack it in.

Thank heavens I was a far distance away when I pushed the button and the 1.7 grams blew. I believe the mix was lightly suspended because they were really ultra and too fine to be used in this fashion. I was too stupid to know what was on ebay at the time. Never tried that again. I did some propellant mixes where I'd put just a little bit of that Mg in to get rid of it and it didn't upset the burn profile of the propellant much at all. I learned to read the component recipes out there thereafter and not to buy too finely ground Mg.

Ummmmm, I was in a TRA group that mixed 20 to 25kgs. of propellant at a time in a commercial mixer so I am not totally moronic and still have my ear and all my fingers sans the tip of my right index. That was a meat grinder accident when I was a kid (2 years old). (My Mom still feels bad about that but not her fault.)

Just bring some of the components to the "rocket shop", casting tubes and good to go! Was a very fun time until the prefect died and passed away. I've wondered what happened to the mixer?

Another stupidhead moment. Many years ago I was testing low current "staging" igniters just in case I wanted to try staging. Turns out I never did staging APCP but that is besides the point.

I diddled with wires, components and came up with something that relatively worked. During one testing cycle, I decided to use my "new" ARTS II altimeter as an ignition device as it has a testing cycle on it for ematches while connected up to a laptop. (I flew it once, it performed fine and is in a cool dry place so it might fly again.)

Well, my homemade ematch of which I soldered my own ematch heads with PC board and wire as I had a shear that could adequately cut double-sided PC board without dorking them, popped, started burning like hellfire, flew up (I saw it coming) and hit the inside of my external ear pinna. My stupid lead wires were too short!!!! I was too close to the igniter for testing!
(Yes I had an ohm meter that made sure my matches had sufficiently low resistance. Those that didn't pass became motor starters.)

It didn't go into the ear canal because if it did, I would be deaf in that ear. Caught the top part of the inside pinna (look the term up) and had "crusties" ie. scabs to deal with for months. It didn't hit me with full force as I threw up my arm and just the tip of the igniter hit my ear pinna which I was able to bat away quickly. Fortunately, didn't burn my arm.

Aside from scabs, I have no permanent, disfiguring damage and am just as ugly as before.
I gotta start going through my old hard drives and try to pull that picture of my ear off I had my lovely wife took of my stupidity.

Pat has his "thumb" and I have my "ear". Thank heavens we still have both of them attached to our bodies!

Kurt

 

[SharkWhisperer]

Copper thermite is notorious for not liking confinement. My understanding--I've never used it but have spoken with those who have--is that confinement greater than a layer or so of cigarette paper can often go boom. I'd rather wait for a second or three for the motor to come to full pressure than to use a starter that has a fair chance of destroying motor and/or rocket.

A good friend of mine would often retort with "Kiss my thumb!" when irritated. He was working with copper thermite and thought he was safe. They had to graft skin on the thumb. Three guesses as to where the skin came from....

Best -- Terry

I have a fair bit of personal experience with copper thermite (usually CuO with Al, but occasionally other metals higher on the redox scale...). With fine ingredients, CuO/Al thermite burns "explosively". It' doesn't actually dentonate, but deflagrates at a rapid rate providing an orange-brown ball of vaporized molten copper metal. It can easily send you to the burn ward if you are used to the usual Fe2O3/Al thermite reaction that is usually well contained.

Copper thermite is by no means the most "reactive" of the Goldschmidt/thermite reactions, but it can seriously injure you if appropriate precautions are not taken. It is also much easier to ignite than typical rust/Al thermite that won't light with a butane torch. Many other thermite reactions are even more dangerous, but most don't venture into that territory. Knowledge of theoretical chem is needed to mess with thermites, but practical experience is critical.

I strongly suggest you get professional tutelage if you opt to experiment with the more sensitive thermite compostions (there are many). Skin is not very forgiving when it comes to burn injuries. Neither is the epithelial covering of your eyeballs...

 

[Steve Shannon]

I have a fair bit of personal experience with copper thermite (usually CuO with Al, but occasionally other metals higher on the redox scale...). With fine ingredients, CuO/Al thermite burns "explosively". It' doesn't actually dentonate, but deflagrates at a rapid rate providing an orange-brown ball of vaporized molten copper metal. It can easily send you to the burn ward if you are used to the usual Fe2O3/Al thermite reaction that is usually well contained.

Copper thermite is by no means the most "reactive" of the Goldschmidt/thermite reactions, but it can seriously injure you if appropriate precautions are not taken. It is also much easier to ignite than typical rust/Al thermite that won't light with a butane torch. Many other thermite reactions are even more dangerous, but most don't venture into that territory. Knowledge of theoretical chem is needed to mess with thermites, but practical experience is critical.

I strongly suggest you get professional tutelage if you opt to experiment with the more sensitive thermite compostions (there are many). Skin is not very forgiving when it comes to burn injuries. Neither is the epithelial covering of your eyeballs...

One report discussing copper thermite included the following: “not truly a detonation, but indistinguishable from a detonation.”

 

[BABAR]

While I agree with you in principle and practice on the first three don't suggestions, as a result of recent events, the last don't is insensitive. I know you did not mean it as such, but it is none the less.

Lol, maybe, but I thought it was funny. I know, I need to get out more…..,

 

[ksaves2]

One report discussing copper thermite included the following: “not truly a detonation, but indistinguishable from a detonation.”

What happened to me is a rapid deflagration that resulted in a very loud report from rapid burning. It was a result on using too finely ground of the two part copper thermite components and the fact they were suspended "just right" in the canister ie. air molecules were between the particles. I just shook the components to mix and used a spatula to scoop 1.7gms of the mix into the canister.
I DID NOT pack it at all so it was loosely mixed. The loud report was a shocking surprise.
It instantly vaporized and I suspect the heated air caused the report.
I tried two more times with the same components and saw an aggressive flare but not a report. It burned too fast to be of any use for air starts and I sought out courser ground components that are safer to use. I was stupid when I started out.
I recommend if one wants to do airstarts, get mentored by someone who uses CuO regularly and with success.

As an aside, ematch augmented motor starters look promising.
Two matches soldered to one lead. I can't remember if they were in a series or parallel connection. One ematch head straight ahead and one bent backwards. It takes a sensitized dip and a "wet" lacquer of the components carefully mixed is safer than the raw powders. When they dry and "age" they actually work better! Could never figure that out. The ematches pop and the pyrogen burns. It takes more than plain CuO in lacquer dip form to get this to work though. Am not going to discuss mixes in the open forum as per posting policy as this stuff can be very dangerous.
As mentioned, seek out someone in a club or a launch to mentor. I have to add, even though I experimented, I never attempted an airstart and all my testing was ground testing. I'm hardly an authority on this stuff.
Kurt

 

[Rocketjunkie]

If your Cu thermite is going bang, use a larger particle size Al. 5u goes bang for me but 325 mesh (35u) works well. It is static and friction sensitive. Treat mixed like flash powder. The maiden flight of my Deuce98 used Cu thermite (9g per motor).