Apollo Capsule Pad Abort Test Vehicle.

[astronboy]

Well, I am glad that you are working on something for yourself for a change, instead of all of us!

Ph

 

[powderburner]

Sandman,
Did you and Gus ever figure out how to do all those flight functions on your checklist?
I couldn't think of a way to do all that stuff without using blackmatch or on-board electronic controls.

 

[sandman]

Actually no. Not yet.

We are currently, well, I am anyway, working on new capsule bodies.

I have the PA-1 model finished and Im working on the PA-2 capsule.

I'm experimenting with some new construction techniques.

 

[sandman]

I've made some progress.

Here is the foam for PA-2 ready to turn and shape.

 

[sandman]

After they are shapped and glassed then filled and sanded and filled again back on the lathe for final sanding.

This is PA-2.

 

[sandman]

Here is the tip of PA-2 read to go back on my other lathe for final turning. I'm just letting the epoxy cure a little longer...it sands easier.

 

[sandman]

And finally here is PA-1 (Gus's model) all primed and ready for final wet sanding.

The capsules are made in two parts so they can seperate like the prototypes.

The foam has been removed to a thickness of 1/2" to save weight and still have some strength.

PA-2 will be made the same way all solid construction but I am also making an alternate PA-2 capsule with a glass heat sheald and a built up body made of cardstock in seven segment like the prototype's blast shield.

PA-1 would have to be one piece since it didn't use a blast shield.

After both models are finished they will be weighed and flight tested before we try to do all the other "stuff".

 

[Gus]

Gordy,

Holy Cow!

Even better than you described it.

Fantastic work, as usual.

 

[jonlawsb]

Well done guys, fantastic construction/design and brilliant spectacular flights....but.....but

****!!, ****!!, ****!!, ****!!, ****!!, ****!!, ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahem..

I have been working (when work, young family and missus allow) on a 1/11th scale Apollo LES rocket for 4 years now.

It's frighteningly similar to the Sandman design based around 4 canted D motors (2x D12-0 & D12-3 & D12-5). The motor casings kinda determined the scale.

For years I have been searching for evidence that anyone else out there has done the same thing. Apart from a frankly naff looking motor-thru-the-heat-shield model - nothing has come close. Now today I find this thread on this forum. My world has now fallen apart! Why go on? I'm so depressed!!!! Hence the Marvin avatar 8-(

Flying in the face of Mr Hines's KISS rule, my model is purposely complex by design (bored of making simple tubes with fire at one end flying upwards). I'm intending for the most complete & accurate flight profile possible (weight allowing) complete with canard deployment and capsule ejection from the BPC.

Frankly I'm now so disheartened that I'll torch everything or rig a nice big fat CATO.

Congratulations though (I mean it - honestly!)

 

[ben]

Well done guys, fantastic construction/design and brilliant spectacular flights....but.....but

****!!, ****!!, ****!!, ****!!, ****!!, ****!!, ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahem..

I have been working (when work, young family and missus allow) on a 1/11th scale Apollo LES rocket for 4 years now.

It's frighteningly similar to the Sandman design based around 4 canted D motors (2x D12-0 & D12-3 & D12-5). The motor casings kinda determined the scale.

For years I have been searching for evidence that anyone else out there has done the same thing. Apart from a frankly naff looking motor-thru-the-heat-shield model - nothing has come close. Now today I find this thread on this forum. My world has now fallen apart! Why go on? I'm so depressed!!!! Hence the Marvin avatar 8-(

Flying in the face of Mr Hines's KISS rule, my model is purposely complex by design (bored of making simple tubes with fire at one end flying upwards). I'm intending for the most complete & accurate flight profile possible (weight allowing) complete with canard deployment and capsule ejection from the BPC.

Frankly I'm now so disheartened that I'll torch everything or rig a nice big fat CATO.

Congratulations though (I mean it - honestly!)

I'd love to build a pad abort test vehicle. Then slowly build down the rest of the rocket as I can afford it

Ben

 

[Gus]

Frankly I'm now so disheartened that I'll torch everything or rig a nice big fat CATO.

Oh, don't do that! :surprised:

Sandman and I were not the first to do this. It had been done before, in a smaller scale if I remember correctly, but I'm embarassed that I don't recall the name of the rocketeer.

Our plan, too, has been to do a full scale flight, with canard deployment on Sandman's PA-2 (they weren't present on PA-1) and tower jetison on both. But as outlined here, the development of even the simpler models is ridiculously difficult and time consuming.

At present both Sandman and I have taken a break from construction on the Pad Aborts to work on other projects. But they are truly a labor of love for both of us and I suspect it won't be long until we're back at work upgrading them. As a matter of fact, Sandman and I were together just yesterday and were discussing this very project, albeit with a new wrinkle.

As for others building their own versions, rest assured no one would be more impressed than Sandman and I. No one knows better than we do just how difficult it is. So don't throw away your work. Carry on, and post some pics.

Let us know if we can be of any help.


Gus


ps - photo below of PA-1 (being launched at NARAM 49 by my daughter and myself) was taken by Chris Taylor for his website NARAM Live.

View attachment DSCN0683.JPG

 

[moonboy]

Sandman,
I believe xavien eletronics has a timer that allows more 4 channels for time events. Coupled with a mad detector this would allow a failsafe mode if it tilted to far on launch. Pa-2 launch report is available on ntrs in PDF.
Moonboy

 

[jonlawsb]

Oh, don't do that! :surprised:

...As for others building their own versions, rest assured no one would be more impressed than Sandman and I. No one knows better than we do just how difficult it is. So don't throw away your work. Carry on, and post some pics.

Let us know if we can be of any help.


Gus

Gus,

Thanks for the encouragement!

I've just looked up my original Visio drawings of the Thrust structure (Feb 2001) that makes it over 6 years old not 4!

My version differs from the designs by Sandmans & yourself in a few ways.

I've always intended to make the final version of the Launch Escape System that thankfully was never needed on all the Saturn 1B & 5 launches.

The Pad abort tests that your models duplicate so accurately was pre BPC, had a bolier plate Block 1 CM and the original tower design (the PA-1 has flat plate style bottom cross-rung not a tubular rung like the eventual manned vehicles used). I may be wrong but the Pad Aborts tests also didn't have canards which came as a result of the PA tests and the inclusion of the BPC. These were later flown on the Little Joe test flights.

The hardest thing for me so far is keeping down the weight. I don't expect it to go too high (thats not the point) and I don't believe the 500 feet estimate from my Rocket CAD software.

Come to think of it, finding out that you guys have actually launched your models does give me a kick up the bum to get mine in the air too.

I'll keep you posted on progress - I may even launch it before a manned Orion leaves 39A (or your congress cancels it)


Jon

 

[jonlawsb]

I'll see about some pictures too...

 

[sandman]

Gus,

Thanks for the encouragement!

I've just looked up my original Visio drawings of the Thrust structure (Feb 2001) that makes it over 6 years old not 4!

My version differs from the designs by Sandmans & yourself in a few ways.

I've always intended to make the final version of the Launch Escape System that thankfully was never needed on all the Saturn 1B & 5 launches.

The Pad abort tests that your models duplicate so accurately was pre BPC, had a bolier plate Block 1 CM and the original tower design (the PA-1 has flat plate style bottom cross-rung not a tubular rung like the eventual manned vehicles used). I may be wrong but the Pad Aborts tests also didn't have canards which came as a result of the PA tests and the inclusion of the BPC. These were later flown on the Little Joe test flights.

The hardest thing for me so far is keeping down the weight. I don't expect it to go too high (thats not the point) and I don't believe the 500 feet estimate from my Rocket CAD software.

Come to think of it, finding out that you guys have actually launched your models does give me a kick up the bum to get mine in the air too.

I'll keep you posted on progress - I may even launch it before a manned Orion leaves 39A (or your congress cancels it)


Jon

Jon, Gus and I did different rounds. I made the parts for both of them.

Gus did PA-1 in 1/12th (BT-70 Escape Motor) scale with the large cross plates you described (you have to look closely at the pics)

I did PA-2 in 1/10th (BT-80 Escape Motorscale. PA-1 was basically a boiler plate PA-2 was closer to a production Apollo Capsule but still a prototype. The capsule for PA-2 (BP-22) was actually used over again in The Little Joe II flight A-002.

PA-2 had the blast shield cover and the operational canards.

I also did a Micro Maxx version in 1/70th scale.

View attachment PA2composit.JPG

 

[Minuteman]

I'm impressed, thats some good work, or as us people from Massachusetts say...."Thats wicked sweet"

 

[Gus]

I have entered a short documentary about the Pad Aborts in this year's EMMR Video Contest.

https://www.rocketreviews.com/contests/video_contest2.shtml

See entry #10.

Let me know what you think.

 

[jadebox]

I have entered a short documentary about the Pad Aborts in this year's EMMR Video Contest.

https://www.rocketreviews.com/contests/video_contest2.shtml

See entry #10.

Let me know what you think.

The download link is to a different movie.

BTW ... I didn't know about the contest. I have a video I would liked to have entered. Couldn't you have posted your message yesterday?

-- Roger

 

[Gus]

Thanks for the info about the link.

Nick fixed it.

 

[wilsotr]

Oh, don't do that! :surprised:

As a matter of fact, Sandman and I were together just yesterday and were discussing this very project, albeit with a new wrinkle.

Hmmmmm ... would be really interesting to know what that "new wrinkle" is all about.

 

[g_boxwood]

I have entered a short documentary about the Pad Aborts in this year's EMMR Video Contest.

Let me know what you think.

I really liked it as I'm fond of this project!

It has been a dream of mine for years now, only in a bigger scale.

Seeing your results motivated me to further investigate it and I began the CAD work involved in the design.

I started with a full 6" version based around 54mm long-burners and I'm now started with the 4" boilerplate that doesn't feature the tower strut to simplify things a bit (as you Gus did if I recall correctly).

In my intent the capsule should separate @ burnout and the tower jettison motors should aid that; capsule and tower on their own from burnout to apogee to touchdown.

Here's the initial very basic 3D model for the 6" version:

That's the 4" boilerplate I'm working on:

Actually I asked Gordon one of his 1/10th replicas but he is really busy as I can't get any...

 

[Gus]

Giacomo,

Wonderful to hear from you again! Gordy and I were talking about you not long ago and wondering what you were up to.

I love the CAD drawings. Having seen what you've made in the past I have no doubt this will be a fantastic project.

Our original plan, too, was to separate the capsule at burnout. But it adds a level of complexity we weren't ready to tackle without doing these smaller models first.

I think the most important thing we've learned about possible upscaling is that the trailing capsule acts like a huge fin set making the whole thing way overstable. High power gives you way more options in terms of adding tail-weight to balance the capsule but how you calculate the proper amount is hard to say. One of our flights went horizontal right off the pad in relatively light winds.

We were also very concerned about what effect longer burning motors would have if one motor fails to light. With the relatively short burn of a D12 we suspected a failure to light one motor would tip the capsule but wouldn't be enough to force it completely over and back into the ground. So far we've been lucky and not had any cluster failures to find out.

Giacomo, it's really great to hear from you again. Please let Gordy and I know of anything we can do to help you, and keep us informed of your progress.


Steve

 

[g_boxwood]

Giacomo,

Wonderful to hear from you again! Gordy and I were talking about you not long ago and wondering what you were up to.

Thank you Steve, very kind of you!

Our original plan, too, was to separate the capsule at burnout. But it adds a level of complexity we weren't ready to tackle without doing these smaller models first.

That's the correct progression: that's way I wanted one of yours :cry: !

I'm taking your development steps as if they were part of my own design: this way I'm much more confident that the bigger replicas will work thanks to your achievements.

I think the most important thing we've learned about possible upscaling is that the trailing capsule acts like a huge fin set making the whole thing way overstable.

I'm finishing my funnel rocket to experiment with finless designs: I'm pretty confindent in the LES anyway.

We were also very concerned about what effect longer burning motors would have if one motor fails to light. With the relatively short burn of a D12 we suspected a failure to light one motor would tip the capsule but wouldn't be enough to force it completely over and back into the ground. So far we've been lucky and not had any cluster failures to find out.

That's another good point: for the 4" I'm forced to use 38 mm motors and I'd rather go with Pro38 to insure ignition (knock on wood).

Giacomo, it's really great to hear from you again. Please let Gordy and I know of anything we can do to help you, and keep us informed of your progress.

Thank you Steve, Gordon already knows what to do :lol:... I'll be posting progresses in the forum for sure.

 

[sandman]

Giacomo, I apologise for not getting back to you sooner. Steve and I have been working and experimenting on various parts to see if making a kit of this is even possible.

Some ideas are working out while some are not.

I am very impressed with your design and really hope that given the estra room you have, you can make this work.

If anyone wants to follow your progress better go here but you will need some translation.

https://www.rocketryitalia.com/viewtopic.php?t=1905

The picture will give you a good idea of what he is doing.

 

[g_boxwood]

We are auto-referencing each other Gordon! such megalomaniacs...

Gordon: don't worry about making me the most complete kit ever, just provide me with the parts you can turn with ease, I'll deal with the rest. PM me about that, we can arrange a part list that's fine for both.

I'd really like to experiment with your smaller design before taking it to HPR (which I'm already doing anyway).

 

[sandman]

Giacomo, I sent you a PM.

 

[jj94]

That's going to be huge.

By the way, I checked out the Italian forum and the pics I saw in the thread were very nice.

 

[g_boxwood]

Thank you Josh!

I'll post pics in here as well as soon as I have something more done.

I started from the tip and I'm coming down:

The jettison motor sub-assembly is next: