Advanced Topics - restricted access

[MaxQ]

So whats the story on this category...especially the research stuff...

?

Guess some of the details will be forthcoming...
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=17906

 

[Pantherjon]

It is in the works...Access requirements will be posted in the next few days...

 

[jFlds]

Put me on the 'list' please.

I'll send my docs when needed.

 

[Marlin523]

I'm sorry to see this if I understand it. Are you suggesting an "elite" area for members only? I don't understand the thinking behind this. I think many hobbyists are curious to learn from those who know more than they do. I know I am one of those.

 

[shreadvector]

https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar_official.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations

 

[Marlin523]

Sorry, I don't get it.

 

[jsdemar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations

Amateur rocketry has been discussed far and wide and for many years on public-searchable Internet forums without a problem. Why will this suddenly become an issue because of TRF? It is generally textbook stuff and readily available from other sources. Sensitive subjects such as high-grade guidance, advanced processes, advanced materials, etc, are beyond what anywhere here knows about or needs to talk about. If a person does have a background in these area, they can chose not to respond or not join the research section altogether.

I think the added step of restricting access to adults and US persons has more to do with liability than with ITAR. Each individual can consider their own liability when joining and answering questions.

 

[SCE to AUX]

At least some "EX" motor information may fall under ITAR. Aerotech/RCS offers a course in propellant formulation and processing, which is restricted to "US Persons" under ITAR:

https://www.rocketmotorparts.com/classes.html

 

[jsdemar]

At least some "EX" motor information may fall under ITAR. Aerotech/RCS offers a course in propellant formulation and processing, which is restricted to "US Persons" under ITAR:

https://www.rocketmotorparts.com/classes.html

That's a "better safe than sorry" decision on their part. A good move. But, there isn't anything in that class that isn't already in the public domain.

 

[troj]

It'll be restricted, for one primary reason...

I'm not going to be the one responsible for someone's kid learning to make motors. That's an activity that the parents need to be involved in, and understand themselves, what their kids are doing.

I'm not interested in having people send me a copy of their ID card -- too much personal information on there that I don't want to have. Leveraging NAR and Tripoli tracking age works to my advantage, in this regard.

The reason it's visible to folks without access is so that those who might potentially be interested know it's there. But having it filtered beyond that keeps it from coming up in searches of those who aren't interested in reading it. An attempt to benefitting both.

As for requiring HPR certification, that's a judgement call of mine, and a couple others who are helping with this.

-Kevin

 

[spacecadet]

Not sure there's much you could keep from the British. We've been manufacturing rockets for quite a while, don't you know.

 

[H_Rocket]

Sounds like the goo old days. Folks have to realize, this site belongs to Kevin and he gets to set the rules with respect to who gets access to what.

 

[jderimig]

Not sure there's much you could keep from the British. We've been manufacturing rockets for quite a while, don't you know.

Yes, you showed us a few at Ft. McHenry....

 

[ClayD]

It'll be restricted, for one primary reason...

I'm not going to be the one responsible for someone's kid learning to make motors. That's an activity that the parents need to be involved in, and understand themselves, what their kids are doing.

i still have my fingers thank gooooodnes...

 

[Lentamental]

The entire reason this hobby still exists is self-regulation. The NAR and TRA don't hold us to any legal obligation to fly safely, but they do apply a set of guidelines people are expected to follow. Because there are these guidelines, the government stays out of our business a bit more. Yes, its a pain in the ass to have to order highpower motors one at a time until you get your certification, but thats a small price to pay for being able to fly at all.

The film industry realized this some 90 years ago, and has been thriving ever since. People started getting pissed at the racy content of some films, so they created the Motion Picture Association of America. The MPAA set down guidelines under which all film companies would make decent films. That way, it wasn't illegal to produce a racy film, it just wouldn't be supported.

In other words, yes, you personally can have email corespondents with whomever you like, and nobody is going to stop you. But the model rocketry institution will not support it, so that it stays in good standing with the government, and the government stays out of our business. For gods sake, TRF is giving a little bit more freedom, and you guys are acting all victimized and like they are taking away your freedoms.

The institution isn't always out to get you. Get over yourselves.

 

[GregGleason]

It'll be restricted, for one primary reason...

I'm not going to be the one responsible for someone's kid learning to make motors. That's an activity that the parents need to be involved in, and understand themselves, what their kids are doing.

I'm not interested in having people send me a copy of their ID card -- too much personal information on there that I don't want to have. Leveraging NAR and Tripoli tracking age works to my advantage, in this regard.

The reason it's visible to folks without access is so that those who might potentially be interested know it's there. But having it filtered beyond that keeps it from coming up in searches of those who aren't interested in reading it. An attempt to benefitting both.

As for requiring HPR certification, that's a judgement call of mine, and a couple others who are helping with this.

-Kevin

Thanks for the explanation and it is appreciated.

:clap:

Greg

 

[Marlin523]

Now that I understand, I appreciate the efforts being made to keep this a safe and respected hobby. TRF remains THE best place for us to share ideas, designs, and growth. Thanks to all ivolved!

 

[spacecadet]

Yes, you showed us a few at Ft. McHenry....

Actually I wasn't trying to be nationalistic or get one over on anyone. (I had to look up that reference).
I could come up with all manner of wisecracks about, for example, friendly fire, but I won't.
My point was that a restriction based on nationality wouldn't stop people gaining knowledge. Subsequently having looked at the ITAR requlations I concluded that it's not foreigners you're afraid of, it's your own government.
And if that's nationalistic, I'm sorry. Perhaps I am taking this too seriously, but I am put out by the impication that I can't be entrusted with certain facts because I'm a foreigner.

 

[troj]

My point was that a restriction based on nationality wouldn't stop people gaining knowledge. Subsequently having looked at the ITAR requlations I concluded that it's not foreigners you're afraid of, it's your own government.

You pretty much nailed it.

Perhaps I am taking this too seriously, but I am put out by the impication that I can't be entrusted with certain facts because I'm a foreigner.

Oh, I agree entirely. It's silly. But it's what we're stuck with, unfortunately.

-Kevin

 

[dragon_rider10]

Just to throw my 2 cents in. I'm not anyone that is planning on going HPR anytime soon and I definitely won't be making my own motors. (ok well maybe I'm considering going L1 this year) I'm OK with this private section of the forum, as long as there's no elitism going on. I think we can all keep in mind Trip Barber's recent thoughts on tolerance and diversity, we'll be fine. I haven't seen any abuses of that thus far on TRF so I'm not worried.

 

[jderimig]

Actually I wasn't trying to be nationalistic or get one over on anyone. (I had to look up that reference).
I could come up with all manner of wisecracks about, for example, friendly fire, but I won't.

That wasn't the point of my post, I am sorry it came across wrong. It was just an acknowledgment of your statement that the English made rockets for a while and you wouldn't be learning from us. It was the first historical reference that came to mind. It wasn't a dig.

 

[jderimig]

I concluded that it's not foreigners you're afraid of, it's your own government.

Many American's don't trust ANY government, including our own. That's kind of American culture thing.

 

[SCE to AUX]

That's a "better safe than sorry" decision on their part. A good move. But, there isn't anything in that class that isn't already in the public domain.

Apparently, Gary tried to offer the course as an unregulated "commodity" item, but permission was denied by the Dept. of State.

https://www.rocketmotorparts.com/regulatory/usdos_to_rcs_4-8-04.pdf

It looks like the "better safe than sorry" decision was on the part of the government, not Aerotech.

 

[jsdemar]

Apparently, Gary tried to offer the course as an unregulated "commodity" item, but permission was denied by the Dept. of State.

https://www.rocketmotorparts.com/regulatory/usdos_to_rcs_4-8-04.pdf

It looks like the "better safe than sorry" decision was on the part of the government, not Aerotech.

Sending the letter and asking for a determination is the right way to do it. If you ask, they almost always say NO, especially if you're a commercially entity with military contracts. If the same course content were taught at a university from a published text book, it is usually OK to have non US persons in the class. If an individual recommends the same text book, that's ok too. But, if you also direct the non US person to a specific page, it could be restricted under ITAR. "Crazy, but true".

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

Haven't been on regularly to see the area, had to look for it after I read this thread.

I'll echo a comment above. When I first read in the propulsion, public thread that people actually do experiment and make their own motors I thought :y: "wow, that sounds dangerous and complicated." Until then I had no idea that such a thing existed legitimately.

I have little to no interest in such things, nothing against it at all, just not for me. I guess for myself, personally, once the danger gets to a certain level the fun starts to decrease.

If the restricted area is all about making your own motors; have fun and don't lose any limbs.

 

[sunward]

Well, rules and application:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=17943

I was turned down :no:

 

[cydermaster]

Congrats to ITAR and TRF for being as useful to international relations as the Klu-Klux-Klan or the BNP

 

[shreadvector]

A US Citizen is not the same thing as a "US Person".

 

[ben_ullman]

I hope everyone sees this as its not Kevin personally attacking or denying access its more of a CYA thing. Hell *I* cant get in for another few months.

Ben

 

[redsox15]

when is one considered a "senior NAR/TRA Member"?

thanks

Matt