Hybrids 2023

[DRAGON64]

Keeping hybrid propulsion topics active is what we do...

Previous Threads:

Hybrids 2015
Hybrids 2016
Hybrids 2017
Hybrids 2018
Hybrids 2019
Hybrids 2020
Hybrids 2021
Hybrids 2022

Here we begin another year on the topic of hybrid propulsion and all activities associated with the topic...why? Especially with interest nearly non-existent? Because 2023 marks the 14th anniversary of the NAR & TRA winning the lawsuit against the ATF, where-by removing APCP from the explosives list. This is the proverbial line in the sand, marking the time which we begin to see the decline of hobby based hybrids. Why you say? Because, of the 4 or 5 manufacturers that supplied our hobby, there is one left. One who still believes, and is trying to support us, and provide new hybrids for the small market. I am referring to Contrail Rockets.

It would seem that hybrids may still be thriving in the research world too, rather than the commercial hobby industry. So, if you are indeed researching hybrids and or tri-brids, please post up the research in the proper research forum. But be sure to share your videos and flights here in the Hybrids forum. So, without further ado:

Another flying season gone-by, and a new one is just ramping up... what are your goals for flying hybrids during the 2022 flying season? Anything and everything hybrid related is welcome!

* Motors
* Vehicles
* Ground Support (GSE)
* Research motors discussion (within the limits of a non-research forum)
* Electronics
*Altimeters; Vent sensors; GPS etc etc
* Commercial/Professional advancement hybrid discussion
* College development (i.e. TUDelft etc etc)
* Events/Launch coverage
* New flyer questions

 

[DRAGON64]

So, once again I have goals, much like the last eight or so years, I have plans to actually fly hybrids... once again, time will tell. So what is different about this year? @maddmaxx11 has taken my wired mess of a GSE package, and made it full on wireless. I hope he can come on and elaborate a bit more on this. Also, I am sending my 98mm injector bulkhead back to Contrail for some upgraded mods... rumor is, there is a N-class reload in the design pool. And lastly, and ordered a complete 54mm system from Contrail, which I received a tracking number on yesterday. In last years thread I posted a teaser image of what is on the way, here it is again for the new year:



More info when they arrive...

I am also building or putting final touches on four arframes that will utilize the 54mm and the 98mm hybrids.

 

[DRAGON64]

Hybrids in the news:

Not to steal his thunder, but Tom @ContrailRockets has hinted that there may be a Contrail Rockets East in the works...? If he wishes to expound on this, I will leave that tid bit right here. I know enough to be completely wrong, but I am hopeful if the rumor comes to fruition.

Speaking of rumors; there may be new loads and motors from Contrail going to certification... again, Tom can fill in the blanks as needed.

 

[0011001100]

I've toyed with the idea of getting into EX hybrids but not sure where I would start. Saw this on the Contrail site and was wondering how much GSE I would need to run it? Its expensive but I'm curious because I could probably make cheap reloads for it.

 

[DRAGON64]

The plumbing and electronics can get costly, being a frugal shopper would be wise to maximise your efforts at the lowest price possible. Deciding what feature you want in your system is important: For personal use you may not want vent sensors, or even a dump circuit, but if you plan to use at a researcj launch or even at a regular club launch, these items would be necessary in my opinion.

Another cost item is sourcing the N2O. Last I checked nitrous was runing $4 - $7 a pound here locally, not including rental on a tank. That is of course assuming you have not found a suitable tank to purchase for your system.

You will need GSE for your GSE: A bottle heater blanket for flying in the winter, and or a suitable way to cool your tank in the summer.

 

[DRAGON64]

Here is a video I made back in August of 2022. @maddmaxx11 and I were testing the lastest changes to the wireless GSE ste-up he has been working. The burn was also a test of his 3D printed 29mm fuel grain. I believe were mostly successful except for the vent sensor, which I believe has been worked out. The test stand was a built weak, but held together well against the strain of a G69 hybrid. The hardware used was a SkyRipper Systems 29mm motor.

 

[0011001100]

The plumbing and electronics can get costly, being a frugal shopper would be wise to maximise your efforts at the lowest price possible. Deciding what feature you want in your system is important: For personal use you may not want vent sensors, or even a dump circuit, but if you plan to use at a researcj launch or even at a regular club launch, these items would be necessary in my opinion.

Another cost item is sourcing the N2O. Last I checked nitrous was runing $4 - $7 a pound here locally, not including rental on a tank. That is of course assuming you have not found a suitable tank to purchase for your system.

You will need GSE for your GSE: A bottle heater blanket for flying in the winter, and or a suitable way to cool your tank in the summer.

Being at a university I know of the local gas supply company and getting N2O shouldn't be hard. I'm just completely unsure of what a ballpark for the needed GSE would be for a system. This has also made me consider trying to design a prefilled system and I even began with a system based on the nitrous whip it containers but gave up after a little bit. Could you give me a ballpark figure? Like $300 for a system or closer to $600-$800?

 

[DRAGON64]

Building a prefill system would be the cheapest, say under $100 if that; a little plumbing, pressure hose, gauge, scale, and a nitrous source,

Fill-at-the-pad designs can run$300 - $500 depending on how you build it, and what functionality you want. The solenoids are the bulk of the cost. You might get away with speed shop fill solenoids for smaller motors, but you will need a more substantial solenoid that can stay open longer, and those can run $170+ ea. You would also need a smaller dump solenoid for any launch aborts. Fill hoses are easy to source from any speed shop. Depending on your capability and skill to build an electrical system from schematic, these costs can be all over the map. Wireless is the way to go, but I do not have specifics on cost and design, as this was sourced through more knowledgeable fliers.

 

[DRAGON64]

My order from Contrail arrived today! I will tear into this box tonight or over the weekend.

 

[Voyager1]

Just prior to the 2022 launch season I acquired the WFX wireless hybrid launch control system, as I reported then. Unfortunately, the 2022 HPR launch season was anything but successful, due to the unprecedented wet weather experienced, leading to many cancellations. So, the hybrid didn’t launch in 2022 and the new WFX hybrid system wasn’t used for an actual launch.

However, 2023 promises to offer better launch conditions, so here’s to a more successful season. Additionally, I have just added the WFX hybrid status monitor system to my launch controller. The system connects to the PBU4WX-Hybrid pad box and monitors the status of the fill and flight tank pressure sensors; the fill tank or rocket mass load cell; and the vent temperature thermocouple. The status can be checked at the pad or remotely on the LCU4WX-Hybrid at the LC table.

My goal for 2023 is to have a successful maiden launch of my MC FrenzyXL4 on a Contrail 54mm J355. This will hopefully lead into a series of successful launches using a Contrail 75mm K456, preparing the way for my ultimate goal, probably in 2024, of launching on a Contrail 75mm L800.

Clear skies and a great New Year to you all!

 

[DRAGON64]

Love the professionally built Wilson set ups. Looks like you are putting together a very active hybrid flying season, that is awesome! There are tow of us at our local club that are planning to bring hybrids back to the field. Except for some small MPR motors, everything else we will fly will be high power hybrids.

 

[DRAGON64]

I systematically broke into the shipment from Contrail...



Lots ot delve into here, lots to digest...

 

[DRAGON64]

One of the more exciting developements from Contrail are the new internal vented bulkheads for the 54mm motors, and this little guy...



The reload is even more unique in design, short with lots of "pleated" surface area...



Otherwise known as a Pleated fuel grain...



I am not sure what the motor class designation is, but we should be able to test this motor and see first hand later this year. But this motor is internally vented, and able to be inserted into any existing rocket in your fleet that has a short booster tube, and can the recovery be deployed electronically.

 

[A-ron]

I've been wanting to get into hybrids for a long time, but was always put off by the cost of GSE. Then, the other day, I found a 10lb NOS bottle in town for 160 canuck bucks.

"It's an older bottle, sir, but it checks out."

 

[ContrailRockets]

I've been wanting to get into hybrids for a long time, but was always put off by the cost of GSE. Then, the other day, I found a 10lb NOS bottle in town for 160 canuck bucks.

"It's an older bottle, sir, but it checks out."

View attachment 556551

Aluminum cylinders need to be hydrostatic tested every five years. The tester stamps the top of the tank with the test date. Cost me $35 at Linde.

 

[A-ron]

Aluminum cylinders need to be hydrostatic tested every five years. The tester stamps the top of the tank with the test date. Cost me $35 at Linde.

Yup, thanks for the 'minder! I figured that even with the cost to recertify, it was still worth buying. The exterior is in good condition so hopefully it'll pass a hydro test.

 

[ContrailRockets]

Yup, thanks for the 'minder! I figured that even with the cost to recertify, it was still worth buying. The exterior is in good condition so hopefully it'll pass a hydro test.

If it has NOS in it you can use it until empty even years past the five year test date. You just can’t get it refilled if parts the five years.

 

[jhill9693]

I recently got my L2, and planned to stop there for cost reasons. I don’t see being able to afford anything past a conventional K motor anytime soon.

So consider the following a wish list idea: while perusing Alway’s excellent ROTW, I came across the Polish Meteor 1 sounding rocket and dart. If I were going to pursue a L3 cert, it would be with that: less than 5” OD, and an N5600 motor would approximate the original motor impulse. The original released a 40mm dart after a 2.3s burn, which coasted to over 22 miles. I’m gonna work up an OR sim with modern materials (probably fiberglass) to get an idea of whether the weight and performance might be comparable to the original.

Anyway… an old timer at my club flies hybrids and says they are cheaper than a comparable composite motor. Is this true? Are there any viable N hybrids? What would my cost-to-first-flight and my reload cost look like?

Depending on achievability, I may make a goal to save for this and attempt it in 2-3 years.

 

[Banzai88]

Cheaper maybe for grains, but there's the initial purchase of GSE and motor hardware and the recurring cost of fluids that would have to be factored into the equation. I'm not in the know enough on hybrids to know at what $$ point there's a break even point to where hybrids have any advantage.

Heck, in 8 years I've only ever seen 2 hybrid flights, between 6 different big East Coast fields.

 

[mikec]

Anyway… an old timer at my club flies hybrids and says they are cheaper than a comparable composite motor. Is this true? Are there any viable N hybrids? What would my cost-to-first-flight and my reload cost look like?

Thrustcurve doesn't list any certified N hybrids. The largest certified hybrid I know of is the Contrail 150mm O6300.

A data point on cost: a Contrail M2281 reload costs $160. The hardware costs $900. GSE costs are variable, see above, probably at least $400 if not more. An Aerotech M1350 single-use motor costs $513 list; an AT M1297 reload costs $377 and 75/5120 hardware costs $541. N2O costs are probably negligible (you'd need a few pounds to fly this motor.)

So the reload costs are significantly lower, but the hardware and GSE costs will take a long time to amortize. So hybrids are not a magical way to fly cheaply unless you can borrow hardware and have access to GSE.

 

[DRAGON64]

Contrail is working on an N-load for the 98mm hardware. My understanding it may require a higher flowing injector bulkhead(?) Obviously Tom @ContrailRockets could elaborate/correct any info I lay out here. I'm excited for the oportunity!!

 

[mikec]

Is there an expectation that any of these new Contrail developments are going to be certified, or are they going to only be for the EX market?

 

[G_T]

Dumb question, but anyone know of a source for stainless braided jacket PTFE lines with brass 4AN fittings (or 4AN on one end and perhaps NPT on the other) rather than the colorful anodized aluminum fittings? I don't trust aluminum fittings for repeated installs and removals.

Thanks,
Gerald

 

[ContrailRockets]

4AN both ends then a 4AN to NPT / PTC for each fill line.
How long? Six foot?
Tom

 

[G_T]

Anything from 6' to 20' would be fine. I'm not picky.
Gerald

 

[ElHope]

I recently came into the possession of a never used Hypertek Hammerhead system with a few L grains. I've never flown hybrids before and I'm trying to decide whether to sell it or fly it. Does anyone know how you switch thrust and motor profiles with hypertek? My understanding is all of their certified L motors use the same fuel grain and you change the motor you're flying by changing some sort of orifice or injector?

 

[mikec]

My understanding is all of their certified L motors use the same fuel grain and you change the motor you're flying by changing some sort of orifice or injector?

Sort of. There were two types of grain, standard and HyEFX, four orifice sizes, and two different tanks. http://hypertekhybrids.com/lspecs.htm

Supposedly some types of Hypertek are still being manufactured, but I'm not sure where you can get them.

If you don't have access to GSE it'll be a struggle to get this going, especially if you use the standard Hypertek GOx ignition method.

 

[ElHope]

Sort of. There were two types of grain, standard and HyEFX, four orifice sizes, and two different tanks. http://hypertekhybrids.com/lspecs.htm

Supposedly some types of Hypertek are still being manufactured, but I'm not sure where you can get them.

If you don't have access to GSE it'll be a struggle to get this going, especially if you use the standard Hypertek GOx ignition method.

Good to know. I know Sunward still sells and ships Hypertek stuff to the US. https://www.sunward1.com/product-category/hypertek-hybrid-systems/l-motor-systems-and-components/

My club does have Hypertek GSE (that hasn't been used in a while) so I thought it may be doable. Is ignition reliable with Hypertek GSE?

 

[DRAGON64]

As long as you have a full oxygen supply, the HyperTEK system was most always reliable. You might consider taking brief access of the GSE and familiarizing yourself with it, making sure that everything is in good working order... clean out the cobwebs so to speak.

 

[mikec]

My club does have Hypertek GSE (that hasn't been used in a while) so I thought it may be doable. Is ignition reliable with Hypertek GSE?

Glad to hear you have access to GSE. I believe the Hypertek GSE uses a custom fill stem that AFAIK is OOP and would be impossible to source otherwise.

If you have GOx and the HV ignition module then I expect it works as advertised. I know people who have given up on the GOx and use pyrotechnic means to ignite.

See http://hypertekhybrids.com/manual.pdf and good luck!