# A question about RMS motors

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#### astrowolf67

##### Well-Known Member
I've been using mostly F20 Econojet motors, but due to the new, very high prices for these, I'm considering getting a 29 40-120 case. Most of my rockets fly great on the F20 with the 4 second delay. How does the F40 compare? The rockets I use them in are my Initiator, Warthog, Graduator, Onyx, and Tiny Pterodactyl. Would I need to move up to the 7 second delay on the F40's?

#### Zippy

##### Well-Known Member
The F40 is one of my favorite motors. I would think 7 seconds is about right for those rockets, it's what I use in a PML AMRAAM 2.
Or you could go with the F22 if you can find any.

#### Larry

##### Well-Known Member
I use the F40-7W for my Initiator, and the delay is just a little longer than I like. I usually cut it by about 2 seconds. The F40-4W would be better for the Warthog with it being a little heavier. The F22-5J is about right (DO NOT USE THE 7 second delay with the blackjack in the Initiator). The motor Matrix on the Aerotech site or the one you get with the kits really helps to determine the right delay.......Larry

#### n3tjm

##### Papa Elf
Motor Total Impulse Burn Time
F20 ~60 3.0 sec
F40 80 2.0 sec

As we can see, the F40 is a much more powerful motor! More fuel consumed in a shorter period of time. It can lift those heavier birds that the you would not want to fly with a F20 (ie SA-14 Archer).

#### Johnnie

##### Well-Known Member
In my Aerotech Arreaux (Pronounced AERO) an F40-10 is the call of the day. The F40 is a hammering whitelightning reload.

Incidently David, once you get past the shock of shilling over the dough for the 29/40-120 casing, it is nothing but shear joy from here on out. I do not fly singleuse, as the prices in my opion are too high, and the choices of reloads are great. In one casing you can get E16's through the great G64, you can fly Black Jack, Blue Thunder, and the White Lightning. Very versatile...Oh yeah, get a second when ever you can...Why? do you ask...

Very little down time between clean-up, and the dreaded, and we hope this never happens, loss of the casing due to motor kick, or the rocket eating trees. Your lighter rockets with the 29mm mount, will also enjoy the F22-5 Black Jack reload...3.6 second burn, very nice.

#### astrowolf67

##### Well-Known Member
I figure the cost of the casing would be made up after 10-12 flights easily. I'd probably be flying mostly white lightning, that's my favorite propellant (nice flame, loud). I'll probably order the casing sometime today. With tax returns on the way, I've almost convinced the boss to let me order enough motors to get me through most of the flying season (that is if I can find that many ).

#### n3tjm

##### Papa Elf
My favorite load for the RMS 29/40-120 is the G64. Very powerful motor... I always stock up when I can. They are usually the travel buddies with the J motor when I launch my Magnum .... I have around 6 or 8 left in my RMS box.... funny... I don't remember... maybe it is time to do inventory again ;-).

Those G64's are really nice in Art's 29mm Cone Rockets and 29mm UFO's.

You should also check out the Aerotech RMS 29/60 and 29/100 motors. According to Joe, Aerotech has produced more loads for these cases... The F37 and F62 motors are prefect size for the Arreaux size rockets (F62 is sweet in the Initiator), and the G54 and G104 loads are nice for the larger birds

If you think aerotech disposable motors are expensive... you should check out the price of the Pro38 G69! Its more expensive than a Aerotech disposable G, and its a reload

#### loopy

##### Well-Known Member
The F40-7 is my favorite load for my Initiator, and I've also used it with success in my Tiny Pterodactyl. Should also be good for the Graduator, since they are about the same weight, if I'm not mistaken. I love my 40-120 casing - you will love yours too!

#### iceage

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by astrowolf67
I've been using mostly F20 Econojet motors, but due to the new, very high prices for these, I'm considering getting a 29 40-120 case.
David,

You will not go wrong with the AT reloads. Very nice selection in all three formulations. Get the 18mm and 24mm cases while you are at it Best investment I have made in rocketry.

Patrick

#### JMTravis

##### Member
Hello all!

After being out of rocketry for about 20 years I am back in it again and can't say enough good things about the enjoyment of a launch! One of the first things I did was purchase a 29/40-120 RMS for my Initiator. Got to love it! My only problem is I would like to purchase some Black Jack reloads but can't seem to find any. Anyone know of where I might can find some?

#### astrowolf67

##### Well-Known Member
I've got a 24mm case, that I've only used once (bought it a week before the fire). I've accumulated a few loads for it, but have been saving them for specific rockets, as soon as I get them built.

Speaking of the 24mm loads, is the E11-3 completely decertified? That was the first pack I bought, when I got the case, and have only used one so far (my Fat Boy's first flight).

#### iceage

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by astrowolf67
Speaking of the 24mm loads, is the E11-3 completely decertified? That was the first pack I bought, when I got the case, and have only used one so far (my Fat Boy's first flight).
Yep, decerted. They are not on the latest comprehensive NAR/TRA listing.

Patrick

#### astrowolf67

##### Well-Known Member
Well, I did it. I've got my fingers crossed in hopes that Red Arrow has everything I just ordered in stock. I didn't buy much to start, but the order came to just over 150 bucks. Ordered the 29mm case, 8 loads for it, and a couple packs of 24mm loads. All E's and F's.

#### n3tjm

##### Papa Elf
I love the E11-3.... but they lost their certification because their three year time for the next test expired. I believe Aerotech plans to make more... then they will be re-certified. The F12's still have their certification. I don't know for how long though...

#### Stones

##### Well-Known Member
I picked up a dozen each of the E11's and F12's for cheap. Along with a 1/2 dozen F22 blackjacks. 3+ second burn motors are always a thrill.

#### loopy

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by iceage
Yep, decerted. They are not on the latest comprehensive NAR/TRA listing.

Patrick
Yes, they are de-certed, but if you're using them at a non-associated launch (i.e. not an NAR or Tripoli club launch), you can still use them if I'm not mistaken. Given that it's a 24mm load in a fat boy, I'm sure you're under one pound, and still considered a model rocket. Shouldn't be any problem if launching privately.

Loopy

#### loopy

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by JMTravis
Hello all!

After being out of rocketry for about 20 years I am back in it again and can't say enough good things about the enjoyment of a launch! One of the first things I did was purchase a 29/40-120 RMS for my Initiator. Got to love it! My only problem is I would like to purchase some Black Jack reloads but can't seem to find any. Anyone know of where I might can find some?
Aerotech is still coming back online with some of the propellants after the fire, and blackjack seems to be the last on in the queue. They'll be here, we just don't know when. Keep checking the Vendor forum on this list - Joe Burger of Aerotech will post updates periodically on Aerotech motor production.

Loopy

#### JMTravis

##### Member
Thanks for the info Loopy! I will be sure to keep a eye out for some info from Aerotech in the vendors forum...

John

http://www.johntravis.us

#### astrowolf67

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by astrowolf67
Well, I did it. I've got my fingers crossed in hopes that Red Arrow has everything I just ordered in stock. I didn't buy much to start, but the order came to just over 150 bucks. Ordered the 29mm case, 8 loads for it, and a couple packs of 24mm loads. All E's and F's.
Well, luck wasn't on my side. I got home from work today, and had the dreaded refund email. I went ahead and called, to see what I would be getting, and I'm getting the case, one E16-4, and two F40-4's. They were out of F40-7's, and F24-4's. But, after talking to them on the phone, I will say, when they do get some in, I will continue to shop with them. A very good experience Any one know who has a good supply of white lightning loads on hand?

#### iceage

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by astrowolf67
get some in, I will continue to shop with them. A very good experience Any one know who has a good supply of white lightning loads on hand?
David,

I have an 'extra' F40-7 I can save for you. I picked up as much APCP as I could in Orlando when we visited last Thanksgiving. The 7 sec delay is too long for any normal 'F-powered' bird I fly now. Well, except for the Saucers - N - Such, but ANY delay will work in those!

I'll bring a selection of WL reloads to the next BluesRockS launch and let you pick through them. We'll work it out against what I owe you for the rockets you are saving for me

Do you have the 18mm case? I have about two dozen reloads for it without anything heavy enough to fly them in Although, I do have that Alien 8 I built stock...

Patrick

#### Johnnie

##### Well-Known Member
JMTravis,

Welcome to the forum. I'm Johnnie Paul, Secretary of the Huntsville Area Rocketry Association...you'll love it here at the forum. Havoc821 is also a HSV native, and a HARA member...keep your eyes open there are more Alabamians here on the forum.

#### astrowolf67

##### Well-Known Member
Patrick,
I don't have the 18mm case. I'm in the same boat, nothing heavy enough to fly it in. Any thing heavy enough, I upgraded to 24mm already A trade off of APCP against the kits sounds great! I'll definately take the F40-7. The problem I've found ordering online, is I can order 3 motors from vendor 1, and a few from vendors 2 and 3. Seperate shipping from all three, and two out of three charge 20 bucks HAZMAT fees Oh how I wish there was a vendor in central KY (that way we could all benefit).

JMTravis,
Johnnie's right, there's a few Rebels hangin out here I've met quite a few of them at either HARA launches, or MC2 launches. Great groups!

#### iceage

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by astrowolf67
Patrick,
... I've found ordering online, is I can order 3 motors from vendor 1, and a few from vendors 2 and 3. Seperate shipping from all three, and two out of three charge 20 bucks HAZMAT fees Oh how I wish there was a vendor in central KY (that way we could all benefit).
I seriously thought about doing the 300 mile launch circuit around here, but MAN, margins are so small unless you order $20K bulk of motors it just didn't seem worth it. Going broke trying to help everyone out has not worked for me in the past, and I've tried! I think I'll buy one lottery ticket, seal it in the nosecone of a Fliskit Midnight Express, and launch it on a D21. If the Rocket Gods give it back, it HAS to be a winner! Then we'll have some fun here in KINTUKEE :kill: OH, wait, I just realized the lotto also has$5 payouts.

CRUEL, CRUEL ROCKET GODS... EVIL, BAD, CRUEL ROCKET GODS...

Patrick - time for bed

#### JMTravis

##### Member
Thanks for the welcome! This forum is a great source of info and everyone seems to have a great attitude! I will have to come out to a HARA launch and check you guys out. So when is the next launch and where might it be?

#### Johnnie

##### Well-Known Member
We hope to be launching with Astrowolf67, Stymye and a host of other great people at the Manchester, TN field on March the 15th. This is a huge sod farm that was aquired for rocketry use by MC2 out of Nashville, TN.

HARA is currently looking for a field

#### Chilly

##### Well-Known Member
Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson!

There's a couple of threads out there about this place. Some deals apparently ARE too good to be true.

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
So I should stay away?

I guess I'll take my chances with buying a G64, since it's only 7 bucks. Sometime I will get the results, pretty soon probably since I will be getting a G-force.

#### RocketboyG80

##### Well-Known Member
Whoa! DHC does have some amazing prices, but I think when they fill orders they have a monkey fill it as fast as possible (that way more mistakes happen). Next they put your order on a shelf and wait at least a month or two (this is in hopes that the buyer forgets what he ordered). Eventually they may ship it, and when you first receive it, you forget what it is you ordered. You open it and see it is not what you ordered. But don't bother calling/e-mailing them as they aren't there.

#### ghp3

##### Well-Known Member
The prices listed on DHC's web page are severely out of date, at least on Aerotech motors, although they are still somewhat cheaper than most other vendors.

I've placed two orders with them and while they were not without some problems, they were eventually filled. My suggestion... Call, call, call, don't use the web shopping cart. (They do not have any kind of call waiting or voice mail, you'll often get a busy signal, but I have always eventually gotten through.) Confirm price and availability before "placing" the order. Use your credit card (not a debit card) to pay for the order. Follow-up immediately with a faxed hard copy of your order so there is a paper trail. Follow-up a few days later with a phone call to confirm the order has shipped and keep following up every few days until the order arrives.

If that sounds like a lot of work it is, and DHC's prices may not be worth it. [rant] However, for all the (legitimate) grousing about DHC's customer service, I can't say I've had great experiences with any of the online/mail order motor vendors I've dealt with. Red Arrow had a 1 month delay due to post office hassles, then the order arrived incomplete with no credit to my paypal account. A couple of phone calls were necessary to straighten it up. Another Red Arrow order was double billed on my credit card. An honest error, easily solved, but still another phone call to straighten out (also with a very long shipping delay.) A $20 HAZMAT fee from Magnum--buried in the web page and not mentioned when the order was placed. Missing ignitors from Apogee--another phone call to straighten out. A sudden lack of any 24/40 reloads from anybody after spending$40 on a new case. Maybe my luck is just lousy (except for FlisKits, thanks Jim), but getting rocket motors is proving to be the least pleasant part of this otherwise very pleasant hobby. [/rant]

George
ghp3