BATFE visit today

the OP has an explosives magazine and users permit. The atf performs routine inspections on explosives magazines and the people who have access to them.

kjohnson said:

No you got it right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

kj

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Funny and pertinent.
Cheers
fred

This is done. I never cease to be amazed how simple technical matters related to rocketry regualtion turn into this. Civility would be nice. Thanks to the orginator of the thread for a good question and my apologies for shutting it down but given the tone no choice for now.

I reopened the thread after pruning it. I removed all referances to nazis and some of the more pointed posts. Lets make this friendly and informative and if you cant then just dont bother putting in a post. if you have any questions about this please feel free to PM me. I would strongly advise folks to utilize other places to discuss the politics in a bare knuckled fashion as the posts I removed.
thanks
fred

You hit the nail square on the head. Once APCP was removed from the List of Explosives that was all I needed. My LEUP will not be renewed next year. In fact I recently sent my LEUP and all records to the ATFE "Out-of-Business Records Section".

As for as I'm concerned; “igniters and BP are non issues, if for no other reason than lack of enforcement and confusion on the part of the regulatory authority”. Your mileage may vary…

Adrian A said:

Pyrodex is not regulated. Estes ignitors are not regulated (nor are Quest Q2G2 ignitors). 1/4" cardboard launch lugs and 5-minute epoxy are not regulated, nor are latex tubes and plastic zip-ties. Therefore I see no reason to believe that the law is standing in the way of anyone who wants to use well-proven electronic deployment techniques in HPR. I don't think ematch regulation will ever go beyond the pressure already put (inconsistently) on specific ematch and ignitor manufacturers, because there isn't any reasonable and enforceable place to draw the line that could allow Estes motors to be sold at all, to say nothing of dryers, outdoor grills, and butane lighters. So I have no fear of the feds coming down on me for deploying a parachute in a high power rocket with pretty much the same materials and methods that I ignite an Estes motor at the park with my 6-year-old. Could Estes ignitors be abused, and used for terrorist activities? Sure, and they already have been for years. But you still see Estes motors and ignitors sold at Walmart with no LEUP check.

The basic SOP is don't use ignitors for bad things, don't ask for permission, and everyone will get along fine. The BATFE doesn't want to open up an Estes ignitor can of worms any more than we do.

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This made me think of all the "backyard" chemistry I did (well me and my childhood buddies) with saltpeter ,sugar ,carbon and sulfur and firecrackers.....

Ahhhhh...the good ole` days


Sincerely


Paul T and my buddies ;

Left Eye Louis
One Thumb Tom
Firebug Fits (no kidding,a real guy...my cousin !!)


and the rest.......


RIP

Just for clarity's sake, now that APCP is not regulated by the BATF; is there any need for a hobbyist to get a LEUP?

Since a LEUP is not required to purchase ignitors or HPR motors it doesn't seem to make any sense to go through the trouble of obtaining a LEUP. Yes/No?

Are the regs different for those who make their own ignitors?

I think it depends on what is used for "pyrogen". Wire, NiChrome, Super Glue and magnesium 4th of July sparkler make up mine. All perfectly legal substances. But so are a glass wine bottle, a rag and a half gallon of gas. Combined your in trouble.

source of this image is

Peggy Cook
Kansas City ATF

figured it was pertinent to this discussion.

r1dermon said:

the OP has an explosives magazine and users permit. The atf performs routine inspections on explosives magazines and the people who have access to them.

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Oh, right - I get that. It's just a source of frustration for me because the only reason he has the mag and license is for igniters by the sound of the OP. It astounds me that igniters are considered to be explosives.

I totally get the tone and reason for the original post, and I agree - following regulations is a good thing, and I have no problem doing that. I just get frustrated over the fact that propellant is no longer considered an explosive, and isn't regulated as an explosive anymore, but something that amounts to an electronically ignited super sparkler IS regulated as an explosive.

I know that's not the point of this post though, and I apologize for pulling it off topic. I just get really frustrated by hypocrisy. Last year on a different forum, someone posted a letter they had received from a certain government agency. He had written asking for clarification on BP storage for his fire arms and for his rocketry use. The agency sent a response stating that the BP he uses for his firearms could be stored anywhere without license, but he had to keep a separate stock of BP for his rocketry use, and this must be stored in an approved explosives magazine and he must have a LEUP in order to have that stock. Somehow, the government agency in question feels that even though it's the same substance, it's only an explosive if used in something other than a firearm. In other words - you can have it and store it and use it as long as you promise to use it in a weapon...if you want to use it for anything other than a weapon, we're gonna regulate you...hypocrisy at it's finest...

Once again - sorry for going off topic.

Hmmm this makes me wonder since I travel back and forth every year from FL to PA and have many reloads with igniters (30+)stored in ammo boxes if I am breaking any laws.Last thing I need is some over zealous officer fine the hell outta me or worse run me into the gray bar motel.
Should they be in a explosive container?
Do I need a explosive placard on my inclosed trailer?

edit: Forgot to mention I also have E-match "kits" in with the motors and BP.

do not placard if you're not in commerce.

local LE is not ATF...unfortunately, people get arrested by local LE, even when following all federal and state regulations...but subsequently are not convicted of anything.

for igniters, my best advice would be to keep them in the ammo cans, as well as the reloads. dont open your trunk or consent to a search if pulled over. drive the speed limit.

there is an ongoing dialogue with ATF pertaining to ematch vs. igniters...i was under the impression that igniters used for igniting rocket engines were not regulated, as they take far more amperage to ignite than a standard ematch, and are provided with each reload purchased. as with most gray areas, interpretation will differ. at least from what i can tell, most field agents (ATF) will distinguish between a rocketry igniter and a fireworks/explosive ematch.

i had a discussion about this a while back, i can't remember where, but one of the main points brought up was that a rocketry igniter is not used to ignite an explosive...it's primary purpose is to initiate a non-explosive device.

loopy. i can sympathise with your concerns. one of the biggest issues with ematch is that it is sensitive to friction. in the fireworks world, there has been many accidents which have claimed peoples lives, and most of the time they are blamed on ematches. with the NFPA, and state fire marshals offices...they rarely will admit that they are incompetent at enforcing laws and regulations...so in the event of any accidents, a new regulation is born. they do this to give the perception that the original regulation was inadequate, and that industry technology and practices are always evolving and outdating codes on the books.

in the case of ematch, these accidents have prompted new rules. non-removable shrouds are going to be a rule in the future, guaranteed. NFPA revised their code forcing all shows to be e-fired now...so buy ematch stock. unfortunately, to give the perception that something is being done...these types of low risk things will continue to be over-regulated...requiring storage and FEL's to purchase them...CDL's to transport. with all the red tape to cut through, it's a wonder that there are any new companies at all starting up, given the massive cost.

in the case of rocketry igniters, i think it serves the interest of the rocketry community to establish differences between rocket igniters and explosives ematch. because down the road, the regulations are only going to get tighter in my opinion.

my .02

final thought is...if there's any question, call your local ATF branch. make a note of who you spoke with, and what they said. and drive the speed limit.

r1dermon said:

source of this image is

Peggy Cook
Kansas City ATF

figured it was pertinent to this discussion.

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Is that her reasoning or information directly from the technical folks in DC? If the 1st or latter, please show us a copy of said letter.

So, do you seperate igniters from reloads and log them in and out of your magazine? I don't, never did in over 12 years of having a LEUP

Fred

I would like to see a discussion of what is and is not regulated with respect to igniters.

For instance is it the manufacture or storage of a rocket igniter that is regulated?

Is it the materials that the igniter is made from that makes it regulated? Does it matter if you use BP, Pyrodex, sparklers, or kitchen matches?

If you manufacture your igniters at the range, use them all, and don't take any home with you then is that OK?

your mileage may vary...depending on your field agent.

UN0454 igniters are regulated. in the orange book it states simply "igniters". which is why the field supervisor for KC ATF published that photo, to distinguish an ematch from an igniter.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/explosives-list.htm

end of the day, contact your ATF field supervisor's office. i dont think many will make you log and store a rocket igniter in a magazine. but im not an AHJ.

follow my link bj. outlined in it are what constitutes an explosive. using commercial BP for anything other than "sporting or target" technically requires an FEL. making igniters on your property is not federally illegal...it's the storage/transporting part where people would get in trouble theoretically. i can't imagine many ATF agent would make you store a rocket igniter...but like i say, if i have a question...i call them. log their name, and what they said.

Rocketeer Gator said:

Hmmm this makes me wonder since I travel back and forth every year from FL to PA and have many reloads with igniters (30+)stored in ammo boxes if I am breaking any laws.Last thing I need is some over zealous officer fine the hell outta me or worse run me into the gray bar motel.
Should they be in a explosive container?
Do I need a explosive placard on my inclosed trailer?

edit: Forgot to mention I also have E-match "kits" in with the motors and BP.

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if you commit a crime, and cross a state line, you are now "in commerce".
(i.e. illegaly transport)

crossing a state line does not put you in commerce. exchanging money for goods or services does. that is why hobbyists can make explosive materials without a license. a license is only required when "in commerce". unfortunately (or fortunately...depending on how you look at it), for regulated hobbyist materials, people now need user licenses to transport their materials over the roadway. in order to sell those materials, a manufacturers license would be needed, because now you're "in commerce".

r1dermon said:

crossing a state line does not put you in commerce. exchanging money for goods or services does. that is why hobbyists can make explosive materials without a license. a license is only required when "in commerce". unfortunately (or fortunately...depending on how you look at it), for regulated hobbyist materials, people now need user licenses to transport their materials over the roadway. in order to sell those materials, a manufacturers license would be needed, because now you're "in commerce".

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Unfortunately here your are wrong.

Crossing state lines while illegaly transporting rocketmotors places you "in commerce"..


your second statement, why people can home roll thier own, is because it cannot be said to affect Interstate commerce.


youssef megahed, set some precedence here when he was arrested crossing state lines...
gun violations where a criminal crosses state lines are a second closely related precedence.

Clayd...im tired of seeing you spew completely incorrect information. Please call DOT. Maybe theyll convince you.

r1dermon said:

Clayd...im tired of seeing you spew completely incorrect information. Please call DOT. Maybe theyll convince you.

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federal Dot or state dot.....

you shouldnt tell people they dont need a placard... my state requires it, even for personal use...

R1dermon, are you a federal attorney?

my state code:

Vehicles transporting hazardous materials as a cargo or part of a cargo shall at all times be:

1. Marked or placarded in accordance with 49 C.F.R. Section 177.823; and

2. Equipped with portable fire extinguishers in accordance with 49 C.F.R. Section 393.95(a).

I would strongly reccomend keeping this civil fellas.

Fred22 said:

I would strongly reccomend keeping this civil fellas.

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Well, I would recommend before people start "spewing" cfr code of what "commerce" is they talk to a U.S. Attorney.

ClayD said:

Well, I would recommend before people start "spewing" cfr code of what "commerce" is they talk to a U.S. Attorney.

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Noted but my point stans about the tone sir.

ClayD said:

Vehicles transporting hazardous materials as a cargo or part of a cargo shall at all times be:

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Clay, I suspect that the word "cargo" has a specific legal meaning in this case and that it does not apply to end users who have purchased material for their own use and are moving it in their own private vehicle. https://www.flyfast.net/nohmr.jpg is an example. If consumers weren't exempt you would have to have a placard to carry your groceries home from the store.
Best wishes,
Will

WillMarchant said:

Clay, I suspect that the word "cargo" has a specific legal meaning in this case and that it does not apply to end users who have purchased material for their own use and are moving it in their own private vehicle. https://www.flyfast.net/nohmr.jpg is an example. If consumers weren't exempt you would have to have a placard to carry your groceries home from the store.
Best wishes,
Will

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Will, my posting was my State DOT.. States in general completly ignore the "in commerce" clause.. People and buisness are subject to the same laws and codes.

Private vehicle, is any vehicle, personal or buisness... buisness vehicles are private. Unless your transporting motors on a 'public bus'

So any vehicle with "cargo" being in my trunk or in a FedEx carrier, are subject to the same rules. as far as the state is concerned.


(any person, persons, company , corporation, engaged in transporting)....

ClayD said:

Crossing state lines while illegaly transporting rocketmotors places you "in commerce"..

your second statement, why people can home roll thier own, is because it cannot be said to affect Interstate commerce.

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Theoretically the federal government has no jurisdiction over what you do in your home or even in your state, that is up to your state government. When you start crossing state lines then the federal government can legally become involved and that is where things like the term "interstate commerce" came from, and why the FBI gets involved when you do certain crimes and cross state lines. Of course the federal government is now doing whatever they are able to get away with. The lines have been blurred and crossed so much in the past that now it has become their routine, and nobody can stand up to them and tell them to pull back their influence. The nature of government regulation is to grow- write new regulations, regulate things that weren't regulated before, hire more people for enforcements, etc. This explains why things are not regulated in a fair or equal fashion.

Not to muddy the waters any more, and I know there are differences between BATFE and DOT, but how does the idea of a "consumer commodity" affect all this, or does it? I know as far as transportation (DOT) is concerned, "consumer commodity" (material that is packaged and distributed in a form intended or suitable for sale through retail sales agencies or instrumentalities for consumption by individuals for purposes of personal care or household use) changes things. For example, when you purchase your propane tank or cylinder for your BBQ grill, the propane and its cylinder become a consumer commodity for your personal consumption and the haz material transportation regs do not apply.

clayD, if you have questions you can contact;

Attorney at law:

Doug Mawhorr
112 E Gilbert St
Muncie, IN 47305
(765) 741-1375

your state regs do not pertain to this discussion. "cargo" most likely means you are in a commercial vehicle with a separate cargo area. However, i would consult an attorney before you try and interpret your state law.

I just contacted ATF in washington, and was told that currently hobby rocket igniters require storage, as there is no distinction in ATF's eyes between rocket igniters (ematches), and fireworks/explosives igniters.

in order to provide text, i emailed my question, along with some others that will prove of interest to this discussion. in most cases, a response takes less than 24 hours.

If you are interested clayD, i have talked to DOT about your assertion that crossing state lines automatically places one "in commerce", and the answer i got was "no". BATFE said they weren't comfortable answering the question over the phone, and preferred that i email them the question for a response. (edit) i should also state that the nice lady at ATF informed me that the issue is currently under review, and a decision will be hashed out over the next several months.

good day.

so your Doug? Its just nice to know who you are!

Nice to meet you if it is..


Are you a FEDERAL attorney, do you try cases involving the constitutional commerce clause...? If so, to what level of Court are you approved for trial?
(just so i can take not and list you appropriately for when i am arrested..)

Rocket Motors, are not general consumption items, this is not a propane tank stored on the side of a grocery store... Specificly HIGH-POWER rocket motors (which i think we are discussing) even we say, are not for the general public.
With this thought in mind, my particular legislation has said hey... You guys over there.... "yeah you..." you regulate STORAGE, TRANSPORTATION, AND USE... of explosives..... and yeah rocket motors (containing more than 125g.) In the state....(pointing to 4 departments)
These departments say rocket motors with more than 125grams are not for the "GENERAL PUBLIC" , and the hobby and the departments all agree, "these motors are not for the general public" and likewise, require safety measures such as placards and exingquisher measures.

Therefore, since theres not a lot of people(personal use) transporting "rocket motors" what harm is it to require anyone transporting to meet hazmat.
whos going to complain, 4 guys in the whole state?

That said,, I still dont plaquard my vehichle..


I think we should all not hand out blanket advice, since theres such a variable case here for all of us..

ClayD said:

Will, my posting was my State DOT.. States in general completly ignore the "in commerce" clause.. People and buisness are subject to the same laws and codes.

Private vehicle, is any vehicle, personal or buisness... buisness vehicles are private. Unless your transporting motors on a 'public bus'

So any vehicle with "cargo" being in my trunk or in a FedEx carrier, are subject to the same rules. as far as the state is concerned.


(any person, persons, company , corporation, engaged in transporting)....

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What state do you reside in. While I don't question your understanding of that state's hazmat rules, I would like to do a little research. I am not aware of any state DOT that controls "end user"personol use transport of hazmat...There may be laws limiting the use of some material, but those items are usually covered via motor vehicle laws.