AeroTech Information Release 11/10/08

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Garoq

Garoq

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AeroTech Information Release

11/10/08

Tripoli Motor Testing Certifies Two New High-Power Mojave Green Reload Kits

The Tripoli Motor Testing (TMT) Committee of the Tripoli Rocketry Association has certified two new AeroTech high power Mojave Green™ propellant reloads to fit AeroTech, Dr. Rocket™ and Rouse-Tech™ 75/5120 RMS™ hardware.

The new reloads include the 75/5120 L2200G-P and the 75/5120 M1500G-P. The L2200G is a 99.4% 'L'-class recertified and "detuned" version of the M2030G and is perfect for 'L' motor altitude attempts and for flying large, heavy rockets by Level 2 or 3 certified flyers. The M1500G has slightly higher total impulse but with an extended burn time and is suitable for Level 3 certification. Both reloads produce Mojave Green's signature green flame with brilliant and distinct "mach diamonds" and a moderate amount of smoke.

mojave_green225.jpg


Performance data, specifications and prices for the new motors are as follows:

Reload kit designation L2200G-P M1500G-P
AeroTech part no. 12220P 13150P
RMS hardware 75/5120 75/5120
Total impulse, (N-sec) 5104 5220
Burn time (sec) 2.32 3.46
Propellant weight (g) 2518 2631
Loaded motor weight (g) 4783 4896
Suggested retail price $280.00 $280.00

Since the previously-released M2030G motor is being discontinued, M2030G customers will soon have the option of exchanging their M2030G propellant grains with the new M1500G grains through their authorized AeroTech dealer. The M1500G nozzle, liner and other motor parts are identical to those used in the M2030G and do not need to be replaced.

The L2200G-P may be sold to NAR or Tripoli Level 2 certified purchasers in possession of an ATFE Low Explosive User Permit (LEUP). The M1500G requires a Level 3 NAR or Tripoli certification in addition to the LEUP.

Deliveries to AeroTech's high-power RMS dealers are expected to begin by early December. Applicable certification documents, motor instructions and assembly drawings will soon be available for download in PDF format from the Resource Library on the AeroTech website at https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com.
 
Use at your own risk and risk to others and the environment:

https://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/b0432.htm

I am of the opinion that responsible motor manufacturers would not offer such engines that don't come with any warning labels as no tests by have been done by the manufacturers to determine how safe if at all these motors are containing large amounts of Barium Nitrate.

In my opinon these motors are a clear violation of the Federal Hazard Substances Act and I thin any and all manufactureres who are selling these Green motors to the public are irresponsible and in violation of that federal law.

read the law here:

https://www.cpsc.gov/BUSINFO/fhsa.pdf


(f) The term ‘‘hazardous substance’’ means:
1. (A) Any substance or mixture of substances which (i) is
toxic, (ii) is corrosive, (iii) is an irritant, (iv) is a strong
sensitizer, (v) is flammable or combustible, or (vi) generates pressure through decomposition, heat, or other means, if such substance or mixture of substances may cause substantial personal injury or substantial illness during or as a proximate result of any customary or reasonably foreseeable handling or use, including reasonably foreseeable ingestion by children.
(B) Any substances which the Commission by regulation
finds, pursuant to the provisions of section 3(a), meet the
requirements of subparagraph 1(A) of this paragraph.


(g) The term ‘‘toxic’’ shall apply to any substance (other than a radioactive substance) which has the capacity to produce personal injury or illness to man through ingestion, inhalation, or absorption through any body surface.

I think both the NAR/TRA should not certify and should pull current certifications on these and perhaps other colored motors until the legality and safety of their use has been determined by the CPSC, the NAR and TRA.

I would ask Gary Rosenfield and the owners of the other motor manufacturers that use Barium Nitrate in their motors to voluntarily remove these from public sales until the applicable authorities have a chance to rule on their safety and legality.

Now I realize that the majority of people here will totally disagree with me. And thats fine. But there is no data provided by the manufacturers on the use, handling storage of these motors that have large amounts of super poisonous and toxic substances in them.

DO you want to be the guinea pig to find out you have been poisoned by this stuff? Ask Paul Robinson about the side effects.

terry dean
 
From the very tippy top of the Vendor Forum:

"Vendors Vendor announcements, feedback on their products and customer support. Remember that the vendors who are represented here have taken their time to support this forum. Please show them the respect and dignity they deserve."
 
shreadvector said:
From the very tippy top of the Vendor Forum:

"Vendors Vendor announcements, feedback on their products and customer support. Remember that the vendors who are represented here have taken their time to support this forum. Please show them the respect and dignity they deserve."
Click to expand...


respect and dignity is a two way street Fred: surely you wouldn't want a Vendor to be selling a potentially illegal or unsafe product to our rocketry community would you?

I don't think questioning a vendor in a public forum that literally thousands of potential buyers frequent is being disrespectful of that vendor.

I'm sure that if this was a model rocket related safety question, you wouldn't be so fast to pull the trigger in defense of that vendor.

If my post is inappropriate then the Mods can do their job and remove or edit it.

terry dean
 
Oh brother, where to begin....

Interesting how you only mentioned me by name, as there are at least two other manufacturers producing green flame motors. Are you associated in any way with one of our competitors?

Putting this together with other information I have gleaned from multiple sources, this is beginning to sound a lot like the anti-reload fear-mongering efforts of the early '90s. Video and report to follow?

As for manufacturers, if they follow proper industrial hygiene procedures they won't be poisoned.

I believe AeroTech is the only manufacturer of green motors that includes additional specific warnings about handling the propellant and breathing the exhaust fumes.

Though there have been no issues with the handling or use of Mojave Green motors, we are going to add additional precautions in future production.

Based on your own cite, ALL solid rocket motors are hazardous substances. FYI there is an exemption for the sale of certain rocket motors to children, otherwise they would all be banned hazardous substances. Mojave Green motors are labeled for sale to adults only, though we could legally make 'F' and smaller versions available for our younger customers.
 
I myself love the Mojave Green motors. To date I've flown a couple G76G's and an I245G.

I personally ain't afraid of a little Barium.;)

Plus the AT instructions are clearly marked DO NOT BREATHE EXHAUST FUMES and mentions washing your hands after handling the propellant grains.

Gary, keep them greens coming!!!:D
 
I like the green flames and personally the government is too much of a nanny state already. Post the precautions and let the people take care of themselves. As a kid, I had a chemistry set and some of the compunds were cyanide based. I lived. (Although I did have trouble breathing for a couple hours one evening after gassing myself with H2S). :D

On a related note, Gary...the Mojave green motors are noted for having "more kick", i.e., greater thrust. (I guess the same thing could also be said about strontium nitrate and red motors). Is this due to the barium nitrate also acting as an additional oxidizing agent in addition to providing color? (Just curious....as hinted, I've always found chemistry interesting...)
Craig
 
Terry, the only problems with the MSDS you posted:

Composition:

Barium Nitrate 99-100% i.e. "pure" barium nitrate. Not the small amounts to be found in a typical reload motor.

Also, how many people are ingesting rocket motors?? That seems to be the only way that this is toxic.
 
shockwaveriderz said:
DO you want to be the guinea pig to find out you have been poisoned by this stuff? Ask Paul Robinson about the side effects.

terry dean
Click to expand...

Was Paul Robinson poisoned by the proper use of a green propellant motor?

kj
 
garoq said:
Oh brother, where to begin....

Interesting how you only mentioned me by name, as there are at least two other manufacturers producing green flame motors. Are you associated in any way with one of our competitors?

Putting this together with other information I have gleaned from multiple sources, this is beginning to sound a lot like the anti-reload fear-mongering efforts of the early '90s. Video and report to follow?

As for manufacturers, if they follow proper industrial hygiene procedures they won't be poisoned.

I believe AeroTech is the only manufacturer of green motors that includes additional specific warnings about handling the propellant and breathing the exhaust fumes.

Though there have been no issues with the handling or use of Mojave Green motors, we are going to add additional precautions in future production.

Based on your own cite, ALL solid rocket motors are hazardous substances. FYI there is an exemption for the sale of certain rocket motors to children, otherwise they would all be banned hazardous substances. Mojave Green motors are labeled for sale to adults only, though we could legally make 'F' and smaller versions available for our younger customers.
Click to expand...

Gary, thank you for that informative information. You know full well, I don't work and even pretend to work for any of your competitors. I singled you out solely because this was an AT specific manufacturing post, no other reason.

I'm glad to hear that you provide your end user adult consumers additional information about use, handling, storage and firing.

So I can assume that you have done the requisite testing of your G and above Green motors thats is required by the CPSC/FHSA ? Did you do the testing in-house? farm it out to a 3rd party or let the CPSC perform their own tests?

Was any environmental tests performed as to motor scale? For example, theres a heck of a lot more Barium Nitrate in say an L or M motor than their would be in say a G motor?

Hopefully your competitors will follow suit. If they do not, then I would advise those in the rocket community against purchasing their product, until they do so.

Yes, I realize that all rocket motors are considered hazardous materials because of their ingredients and I am of course well aware that their is an exemption for children to purchase model rocket motors, but I disagree that you could make model rocket motors containing additional poisonous and toxic substances such as barium nitrate, even with additional end user warnings and labeling. But this is a technical detail that we would have to agree to disagree on and I hope that you will not try and prove your point by doing so. Providing model rocket motors with barium nitrate would in my opinion be tantamount to providing lead based toys to children.

There's no gotcha here Gary. You must be paranoid. I was just wanting to make sure that you and the other manufacturers of these super toxic and totally environmentally unfriendly motors were dotting all the I' s and crossing all the T's.. I suppose I could have made an inquiry to the CPSC instead?

Folks, just because something you personally think is cool doesn't mean its appropriate or safe. If you wish to put yourself in danger by using these Green flame motors then be my guess. But be sure to point out the dangers to those that are flying and breathing the air around you.

I don't expect anybody in this forum to agree with me on this. This is just what I think and YMMV.

terry dean
 
falingtrea said:
Terry, the only problems with the MSDS you posted:

Composition:

Barium Nitrate 99-100% i.e. "pure" barium nitrate. Not the small amounts to be found in a typical reload motor.

Also, how many people are ingesting rocket motors?? That seems to be the only way that this is toxic.
Click to expand...

small amounts is deceiving. The amount of Barium NItrate in a typical rocket motor is what? 15-30% by weight?


The 2 G green motors have total propellant weights of 59 and 60 g respectively. do the math thats 6-18g of Barium Nitrate per motor. Thats more than enough to KILL or damge you according to the MSDS.

The AMW LM Green motors have 1900- 4200 g of total propellant. do the math: 280-1200g+ of barium nitrate

You obviously didn't read the MSDS: inhalation causes systemic posioning

MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. AFFECTS MUSCLES (INCLUDING THE HEART), AND CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.

terry dean
 
So I have to eat a G76 fuel grain, then I can get poisioned? Yeah, I'll get right on that. Chewey. :)

Do the testing on residue from handling the grain durring assembly, and exhaust from a motor launching a rocket from proper saftey distances. Then I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say. Anything else is just fearmongering. I suspect that many of the substances we come into contact with every day are at least as toxic as Barium Nitrate.

Gary, this new motor is in my top 5 list for my L3 attempt. Thanks for producing great products for our hobby. I love the green motors. I have personally flown a couple G76s, and a J500G and been VERY satisfied with the results. Those results are why I'm considering Mojave Green for my L3 attempt. Great work, and I'll be buying more greens in the future. I also like blackjack, I hope you're not getting rid of it entirely.
 
ttabbal said:
So I have to eat a G76 fuel grain, then I can get poisioned? Yeah, I'll get right on that. Chewey. :)
Click to expand...

While shockwaveriderz is making this more than it is and you are eating, I would like to say the L and M greens are awesome. Got to se bot Demo's at Red Glare 5. Good job AT team.

Ben
 
garoq said:


Tripoli Motor Testing Certifies Two New High-Power Mojave Green Reload Kits .
Click to expand...


OK--enough already. Let's all agree on a few basic facts: Gary eats babies and in all probability is responsible for the Kennedy assassination. Look at the subject of the Aerotech post--"Tripoli Motor Testing Certifies Two New High-Power Mojave Green Reload Kits". I do not understand why we cannot keep our responses limited to the subject at hand. The very first response is a very long attack on Aerotech, Gary, and the horse he rode in on. If someone has a problem with a specific product that Aerotech is producing--then start a new posting to discuss that--if you feel it is necessary to discusss the subject publically--remembering that people in Washington read these forums--and they may not have the knowledge to realize that what is being said is opinion--and often not fact. I happen to be very interested in the new L2200G--and plan to acquire a 75/5120 case in the near future. That is why I read the Aerotech post--I really was not expecting such a nasty attack on either Gary or Aerotech. A large number of negative statements are made to the effect that Aerotech provides no warning labels, did no tests, and these motors contain large amounts of Barium Nitrate. I looked at the instructions for a little G76 recently--it gave appropriate warnings and handlinig instructions. As far as tests are concerned--I have not idea what tests were done, were necessary, or would be appropriate--how many of us do? The claim is made there are large amounts of Barium Nitrate--I wonder how that has been decided. I would hope that they would include some AP with all that Barium Nitrate. All manufacturers of "Green" motors are then accused of "breaking Federal Law"--isn't that a bit strong? I am certainly not an attorney, but reading the definition of a "Hazardous Substance" given in the attack on Aerotech--would lead me to assume that half the items in my refrigerator are "Hazardous Substances".

If you have a problem with a manufacturer, I suggest you contact them directly, contact NAR/TRA, have the other members in your club contact the manufacturer--but stop broadcasting these negative accusations publically--with absolutely no credible evidence. Certain people would love to eliminate our hobby--and screaming fire at every opportunity cannot help. It was suggested that TRA and NAR pull all certifications on "green" and other colored motors until CPSC and others determine that they are legal and safe. This would really be a very bad idea--an explanation should not be necessary. I would love to see Jerry's comments on that one.

I have never understood why so many people attack Gary. He is only the guy who brings us the greatest selection of motors from 18MM thru 98MM. If it was not for Aerotech--we would still be clustering FSI "E" and "F" motors--and thinking that they were High Power. I only met Gary once--in 1992--I think it was Gary--he gave me a hard time because I was using LOC hardware with his reload. Something about tolerances. However, I realize that without Aerotech--rocketry would be very dull and limited today--remember the dry spell after the fire?

I just hit the "Preview" and see that since I started on this post--the author of the hit piece is now "hinting" that he could go/have gone to the CPSC on the matter. That is wonderful. Rocketry is under attack on all levels, 75% of kit builders and vendors have gone out of business in the past few years, and one of our own is hinting at damaging the largest motor vendor we have. Sounds good to me.
 
I heard Barium Nitrate will make my babies be born naked. Is this true?
 
shockwaveriderz said:
Use at your own risk and risk to others and the environment:

https://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/b0432.htm

I am of the opinion that responsible motor manufacturers would not offer such engines that don't come with any warning labels as no tests by have been done by the manufacturers to determine how safe if at all these motors are containing large amounts of Barium Nitrate.

terry dean
Click to expand...

Settle down!, its Barium Nitrate not Barium Chloride, you would need to inhale, swallow more than you would get from handling the propellant grains to have any side effects, such as a headache. Its not like its barium chloride. Besides, don't most people wear gloves when assembling motors, common safety practice, plus its easier to clean up afterwards. If your not happy, don't go to any launches. All MSDS's are highly exaggerated, to prevent people like you suing company's, such as Aerotech.
 
shockwaveriderz said:
small amounts is deceiving. The amount of Barium NItrate in a typical rocket motor is what? 15-30% by weight?


The 2 G green motors have total propellant weights of 59 and 60 g respectively. do the math thats 6-18g of Barium Nitrate per motor. Thats more than enough to KILL or damge you according to the MSDS.

The AMW LM Green motors have 1900- 4200 g of total propellant. do the math: 280-1200g+ of barium nitrate

You obviously didn't read the MSDS: inhalation causes systemic posioning

MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. AFFECTS MUSCLES (INCLUDING THE HEART), AND CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.

terry dean
Click to expand...

https://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/SU/sulfur.html
https://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/AM/ammonium_perchlorate.html
https://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/PO/potassium_nitrate.html

Give it a rest
 
Open reload package.

Do not lick, eat,chop up and sniff, or put in chili for flavoring

Hold your breath and drop the grains into liner.

Assemble motor.

Wash your hands.

Now go launch your rocket in full knowledge you have been "safety compliant"

Mandatory: have DNA with common sense in your lineage.

Problem solved......LOL:party::banghead::banghead:
 
From the Potasium Nitrate MSDS
"Harmful if swallowed. May cause reproductive disorders. "

Harmful if swallowed?! Does that mean no more sausage. NOOOOOO! :lol:
 
WOW L-2200G oh my god this will rock :beer:
 
madsen said:
... a very long attack on Aerotech, Gary, and the horse he rode in on.
Click to expand...

Hmmm I wonder if he'll release a reload in honor of the horse he was on that was attacked. Maybe we'll see a "black stallion" line of reloads. :lol:
 
lmerdan said:
Hmmm I wonder if he'll release a reload in honor of the horse he was on that was attacked. Maybe we'll see a "black stallion" line of reloads. :lol:
Click to expand...

The horse was named max, thats how we get the black max motors.
 
madsen said:
I really was not expecting such a nasty attack on either Gary or Aerotech...
Click to expand...

Really? All Gary needs to do is sneeze or fart in the wrong direction and he'll come under attack. That's the price you pay for being the biggest, most widely distributed manufacturer in the business.

I just hit the "Preview" and see that since I started on this post--the author of the hit piece is now "hinting" that he could go/have gone to the CPSC on the matter. That is wonderful. Rocketry is under attack on all levels, 75% of kit builders and vendors have gone out of business in the past few years, and one of our own is hinting at damaging the largest motor vendor we have. Sounds good to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's unfortunate that some people go out of their way to create problems where none exist. If you dig around, you'll find they always have a "solution" in need of a problem. :rolleyes: It gets really friggin old and makes for a sad existence.
 
Ooohh.

I may have just found the motor for the next flight of my Amraam :D

The L2375 didn't get it quite to mach. I wonder if the L2200 will be able to :D
 
There may be a few dicey chemicals inside those motors, I don't know and I will likely never find out (chances of me ever flying an L or M motor are something smaller than zero). I have to agree with someone's crack about our modern "nanny state" because I have other "dangerous" items all around me, every single day....I guess I should start watching for when my second head starts growing.

I have motor oil here at home. Not used or dirty, mind you, but BRAND NEW motor oil still sealed in those cute little quart bottles, never been opened. Even if I wanted to for some strange reason, it is against the law for me to throw this oil away in the trash because someone has decided it is a dangerous substance (I guess it might make the dump dirty).

I have fluorescent tubes all around my (her?) kitchen. I just replaced all of them with a fresh batch and now I have a box in the garage with 14 old fluorescent bulbs. I can walk into the hardware store and buy as many as I like, with no permits, no training, no nothin' (as can anybody), but I can't throw away the used ones in the trash. It is against the law for me to throw them away in the trash because someone thinks they are too dangerous.

I have latex paint all around the house, in every room including the ones where the kids sleep. I can go to any of about 100 local stores and buy all the latex paint I want, and no one seems the least concerned that I might be stockpiling a dangerous terrorist chemical weapon. But I can't throw away the empty paint cans in the trash because someone is afraid that the latex chemicals are deadly. (They wouldn't even let me throw away a can that one of the kids got with a T-shirt and markers packed in it, and NEVER had paint inside, because it LOOKS like a paint can. Sheesh.) I have a huge pile of old paint cans in the garage. I sneer at latex danger.

There is no place for me to take these things for proper disposal. Because I don't live inside the "official" city limits, the city will not accept these materials when they do their once-yearly "special" trash collection. The county has no provision for disposing of this stuff (they send me to the city people). I guess I am going to have to store it myself, forever, and dangerously live amongst the horrible hazards until my garage fills up and bursts. Or is declared a hazardous waste site.

I get really tired of people who write these rules without thinking them through, just because some lab rat got sick after some scientists force-fed it a ton of samples representing 842 years of exposure. We have too many people inflicting "safety" rules on us without thinking through the real-world impacts of all their requirements.

Warn me, fine, but then please leave me alone.

(Phew, I feel better now.)


HotRod Lincoln said:
From the Potasium Nitrate MSDS
"Harmful if swallowed. May cause reproductive disorders. "
Click to expand...

I distinctly remember the side of the KNO3 bottles that I bought as a kid had instructions for farmers to use the stuff to dose their animals if they needed a laxative. What's up with that?
 
powderburner said:
There may be a few dicey chemicals inside those motors, I don't know and I will likely never find out (chances of me ever flying an L or M motor are something smaller than zero).
Click to expand...

Don't give up too easily, if you can manage about $11.00 for a G76 (shipping not included), you too can live on the wild side. You can wear gloves to handle the fuel grains, you can wear a respirator while you assemble the reload--and then you can stand up-wind of the rocket when you launch it (way up-wind). Or of course, you can do like the rest of us--just use common sense with all motors--follow the instructions--and have fun.

If you think about it--the fireworks people are using the same chemicals in their fireworks. If this chemical was as toxic as some fear--half the country would be dead by July 6th of each year.

Not too long ago CTI was critical of Aerotech for selling "green" motors. Now, with the merger of AMW and CTI--AMW ProX is currently showing Green Gorilla motors for sale. I guess times have changed. I can only assume that CTI conducted extensive tests on "green" propellant--and found it to be safe.
 
powderburner said:
I have motor oil here at home. Not used or dirty, mind you, but BRAND NEW motor oil still sealed in those cute little quart bottles, never been opened. Even if I wanted to for some strange reason, it is against the law for me to throw this oil away in the trash because someone has decided it is a dangerous substance
Click to expand...

Many gas stations (real ones with service bays) and auto parts stores accept used oil for recycling, I'm sure new, unused oil would be fine too, but on the other hand, I would think you could just give it to one of your neighbors. I'm certain that many of them would be happy to take your problem off of your hands...:D

I have fluorescent tubes all around my (her?) kitchen. I just replaced all of them with a fresh batch and now I have a box in the garage with 14 old fluorescent bulbs. I can walk into the hardware store and buy as many as I like, with no permits, no training, no nothin' (as can anybody), but I can't throw away the used ones in the trash. It is against the law for me to throw them away in the trash because someone thinks they are too dangerous.
Click to expand...

From an Erie county , Ohio website...
"Residents wondering how to dispose of their used CFL bulbs now have an answer. Home Depot has expanded its long-term commitment to the environment and sustainability by launching a national in-store, consumer compact fluorescent light (CFL) bulb recycling program at all their store locations. This free service is offered nationwide and gives customers additional options for making environmentally conscious decisions from purchase to disposal.

At each Home Depot store, customers can bring in any expired, UNBROKEN, CFL bulb and give them to the associate behind the returns desk. The bulbs will then be managed responsibly by an environmental management company who will coordinate CFL packaging, transportation and recycling to maximize safety and ensure environmental compliance."

I have latex paint all around the house, in every room including the ones where the kids sleep. I can go to any of about 100 local stores and buy all the latex paint I want, and no one seems the least concerned that I might be stockpiling a dangerous terrorist chemical weapon. But I can't throw away the empty paint cans in the trash because someone is afraid that the latex chemicals are deadly.
Click to expand...

In most reasonable places (like Ohio) disposing of liquid paint is prohibited but fine if you dry it out. Empty cans are fine too. They're empty. See the Erie county site for details.

https://www.erie-county-ohio.net/does/recycling/paint.htm

There is no place for me to take these things for proper disposal. Because I don't live inside the "official" city limits, the city will not accept these materials when they do their once-yearly "special" trash collection. The county has no provision for disposing of this stuff (they send me to the city people). I guess I am going to have to store it myself, forever, and dangerously live amongst the horrible hazards until my garage fills up and bursts. Or is declared a hazardous waste site.
Click to expand...

Are you sure you don't live in California? Is there something in the ocean that is making states on the coasts go loopy?
;)

For a lot of this stuff, I just searched for "disposal of [blank] Ohio" and got a pile of websites that tell me everything I needed to know. For a lot of stuff, if my county doesn't have a program, a neighboring county will and nobody ever checks ID's to make sure you live in the "right" county.
 
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