Gas stoves and other things

[Funkworks]

I have no idea what the science says about breathing in gas fumes, but it can't be good for you.

With that all said, I don't think our FEDGOV should be mandating all this stuff in an effort to go green.

It's complete overreach. They are violating the 10h Amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Carbon monoxyde takes the place of oxygen, sort like water when drowning, except the victim doesn't realize it's happening.

Those who wrote constitutions and amendments could never have predicted a quick planetary increase of greenhouse gases, because they didn't have rockets and satellites to observe climate and such. The Earth and environment are not as static as past lawmakers have presumed. Population has boomed, and consumption increased more than what people of 100+ years ago could have foreseen.

While people can take the law as a basis for their position, the natural world cannot. So we have to take the natural world ("Earth" "environment" "science" "physics" "carbon cycle", "mother nature", whatever you want to call it) into account as well.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

California is switching to all-electric appliances in new construction, and is doing it in steps.

I don’t know the exact dates for each part, but I think starting this year, building codes require all new construction to be built with adequate service panels and wiring for all-electric appliances. The new construction doesn’t require installation of electric appliances, but the building needs to be built so that you could plug in electric appliances without doing electrical upgrades. At some point in the future, gas appliances will not be allowed in new construction.

I believe all new construction is now required to have solar panels and maybe EV charging as well. Like I said, some of these rules phase in over time. And there are also certain cities or counties that have requirements of their own. So I’m not sure if the panels and chargers requirement is in effect statewide yet, but if not, it will be eventually.

On the stoves, we currently have a very nice stove with gas burners on the cooktop and electric oven. I prefer cooking on gas over the old-style electric electric burners. But I’ve never used an induction cooktop, and I hear they are kind of the best of both worlds. I have a couple of friends who have switched to induction, and they really like it. I expect my stove to last a long time, so I’m not considering replacing it, but if I were, I’d consider an induction stove, and I imagine in less than 10 years, that’s the only kind I’d be able to buy.

We had to replace our washer and dryer in 2021. Instead of a gas dryer, we got an electric. These new appliances are much nicer than the old ones, and they seem more efficient.

Oops! Accidentally posted. Here’s the rest.

One thing I’d like to get for our house is a new efficient heat pump to replace our gas furnace and electric central air conditioning. Our heating is our main use of gas now, and I’d like that to be electric. And the new heat pumps are much more efficient than our old AC, and AC is our main use of electricity during the summer. I think we could switch to an electric heat pump and see our electric usage drop in summer and offset our increase in electric use in winter. Since we have solar and net metering, that’s really attractive to us. We may need to add another panel or two, but I’d love to have a zero net gas and electric bill by the time I retire.

 

[jderimig]

Those who wrote constitutions and amendments could never have predicted a quick planetary increase of greenhouse gases, because they didn't have rockets and satellites to observe climate and such.

Yes and those rockets and satellites show that the levels of CO2 and water in the atmsophere are at almost saturatured levels (96%) as far as heat absorption goes. See section 8 of linked paper.

Fig. 9 as well as Tables 2 and 4 show that at current concentrations, the forcings from all greenhouse gases are saturated. The saturations of the abundant greenhouse gases H2O and CO2 are so extreme that the per-molecule forcing is attenuated by four orders of magnitude with respect to the optically thin values.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2006.03098.pdf

 

[jderimig]

Just to be clear, I am 100% behind these EV and banning natural gas mandates in those states where I do not live. This will decrease demand for gas and petrol lowering the prices dramatically for my heating and transportation costs. This leaves me more discretionary income to pay for rocket stuff.

 

[charrington]

As someone who has cooked with both gas, electric, induction. Trust me induction is the way to go. No residual heat when cooking that comes from the flame so the kitchen stays cool. Instantaneous changes in cooking temperature, you can boil a big pot of water extremely fast. No dangerous byproducts from burning natural gas which IS a huge issue for developing children and aging adults. Glass smooth cooking surface which is extremely easy to clean. If you are worried about power going out and then not being able to cook food, I would have a portable stove that runs off propane that I could use outside. This negates all of the health negatives of cooking with gas inside.

If you have a good gas stove I would definitely keep it until its life runs out but if you are ever in the market for a new stove I don’t see any reason to not go with induction.

 

[Funkworks]

Yes and those rockets and satellites show that the levels of CO2 and water in the atmsophere are at almost saturatured levels (96%) as far as heat absorption goes. See section 8 of linked paper.

Fig. 9 as well as Tables 2 and 4 show that at current concentrations, the forcings from all greenhouse gases are saturated. The saturations of the abundant greenhouse gases H2O and CO2 are so extreme that the per-molecule forcing is attenuated by four orders of magnitude with respect to the optically thin values.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2006.03098.pdf

The text says the forcings for current saturations are saturated. It does not say the CO2 and water levels are saturated.

Meanwhile, CO2 levels keep rising.

- - - - -

A few links about CO2 everyone can enjoy:

https://climate.nasa.gov/
https://www.noaa.gov/climate

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Just to be clear, I am 100% behind these EV and banning natural gas mandates in those states where I do not live. This will decrease demand for gas and petrol lowering the prices dramatically for my heating and transportation costs. This leaves me more discretionary income to pay for rocket stuff.

I don’t think the price of natural gas or gasoline is going to be coming down. My main reason for switching as much as possible away from those fuels is their high cost that constantly increases.

I love the fact that my solar panels keep my electric bill around $100 total for the entire year. Those panels are only a year or two away from paying for themselves, and then it’s free electricity for the rest of the life of the system.

And I also love the fact that our newer hybrid car is nicer, more comfortable, quieter, more spacious, and quicker than the car it replaced, but it uses less than half the gas. Our road trips are cheaper than before, and far more pleasant.

 

[Steven]

I just turn the knob and the heat comes on.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

So how long before they come to take your fossil fuel water heater, stove, furnace... NY state is already working to ban them for new construction.

Back to the original question, the answer is “never”. They are never going to come to take away your water heater, stove, and furnace.

 

[jderimig]

I don’t think the price of natural gas or gasoline is going to be coming down.

Nat gas can't come down much from here....
Non adjusted for inflation nat gas prices...Gas appliance bans in NY and CA I hope will keep it this low.

 

[jderimig]

I love the fact that my solar panels keep my electric bill around $100 total for the entire year. Those panels are only a year or two away from paying for themselves, and then it’s free electricity for the rest of the life of the system.

Yes, the privilege of the top 5% is a nice thing. The other 60+% of the population living paycheck to paycheck will not fare as well as the price of electricity skyrockets to pay for 2 generation infrastructures. I wonder what the health effects are on those people as they forgo health care because their utility bills consume more of their income?

 

[Steven]

 

[charrington]

Yes, the privilege of the top 5% is a nice thing. The other 60+% of the population living paycheck to paycheck will not fare as well as the price of electricity skyrockets to pay for 2 generation infrastructures. I wonder what the health effects are on those people as they forgo health care because their utility bills consume more of their income?

This comes back to the issue of how stupid it is to keep using processes of creating energy that are highly inefficient compared to nuclear. We could easily have had clean and highly efficient energy by now but people were scared off by misinformation and lobbying from coal/oil/gas.

 

[Steven]

You want to talk about your rights, life and fun and games being taken away from you? Strap on some Bipolar.

 

[jderimig]

The text says the forcings for current saturations are saturated. It does not say the CO2 and water levels are saturated.

Meanwhile, CO2 levels keep rising.

Yes, About 97% of the earth radiated heat is absorbed in the atmosphere already at current (400ppm) CO2 levels. Which means additional CO2 will have negligible effect on climate forcing. We can go to 800ppm an there would only be another 3% absorption possible, if that. But there would also be record crop yields. At this point CO2 is a very weak greenhouse gas.

Follow the science[tm]

 

[Funkworks]

Yes, About 97% of the earth radiated heat is absorbed in the atmosphere already at current (400ppm) CO2 levels. Which means additional CO2 will have negligible effect on climate forcing. We can go to 800ppm an there would only be another 3% absorption possible, if that. But there would also be record crop yields. At this point CO2 is a very weak greenhouse gas.

Follow the science[tm]

Absorption by (natural) GHG is the reason surface temperature is 14C-15C instead of freezing, and it's what allowed us to develop civilization in the last 10,000 years. We want to maintain the current level of (natural) global warming, and the present average temperature, and not increase it or change it. What you call negligeable is not so. Current rates of additionnal CO2 are not negligeabl to the global average temperature of 15C.

Here's science people can follow:
https://www.science.org/content/art...ould-cause-irreversible-ecosystem-and-weather

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Yes, the privilege of the top 5% is a nice thing. The other 60+% of the population living paycheck to paycheck will not fare as well as the price of electricity skyrockets to pay for 2 generation infrastructures. I wonder what the health effects are on those people as they forgo health care because their utility bills consume more of their income?

Sorry to hear about your financial difficulties.

A lot of people in this country manage to buy their own home, buy a new car occasionally, pay their utility bills, and replace appliances when they wear out. A lot of people manage that, not just wealthy people.

And if you can afford a new car, you can probably afford a new hybrid or EV that will save you money on fuel.

If you can afford a newly built home, you can probably afford one built to a new building standard with electrical service upgrades, all-electric appliances, EV charger, and solar panels that will save on your utility bills.

And if your home didn’t come with solar, and you manage to pay your monthly electric bill, you can probably afford to finance a solar power system that will pay for itself and save you money on your monthly electric bill. A lot of companies offer to finance solar so that your loan payment is less than your electric bill. Or you can do like my dad and get a company that charges nothing to put panels on your roof and just sells you the electricity for less than the utility company does.

It’s definitely within reach of a lot of people if they want it. Sometimes things break or don’t last forever, and you have to replace them. That’s a good time to upgrade. We didn’t run out to buy a hybrid car for the purpose of saving gas. We needed to replace our old car after 24 years, and so we got a hybrid because we’re were already committed to getting a new car.

We got our solar panels when it was time to replace our failing roof.

We got our new efficient electric dryer when our old gas dryer finally crapped out after 21 years.

We’ve slowly replaced almost every light in the house with LEDs as the old incandescents or their fixtures burned out.

To me, these transitions have been affordable considering I had to buy a new item anyway, and the upgraded item wasn’t that much more and would save money in the long term.

 

[jderimig]

Sorry to hear about your financial difficulties.

A lot of people in this country manage to buy their own home, buy a new car occasionally, pay their utility bills, and replace appliances when they wear out. A lot of people manage that, not just wealthy people.

And if you can afford a new car, you can probably afford a new hybrid or EV that will save you money on fuel.

If you can afford a newly built home, you can probably afford one built to a new building standard with electrical service upgrades, all-electric appliances, EV charger, and solar panels that will save on your utility bills.

And if your home didn’t come with solar, and you manage to pay your monthly electric bill, you can probably afford to finance a solar power system that will pay for itself and save you money on your monthly electric bill. A lot of companies offer to finance solar so that your loan payment is less than your electric bill. Or you can do like my dad and get a company that charges nothing to put panels on your roof and just sells you the electricity for less than the utility company does.

It’s definitely within reach of a lot of people if they want it. Sometimes things break or don’t last forever, and you have to replace them. That’s a good time to upgrade. We didn’t run out to buy a hybrid car for the purpose of saving gas. We needed to replace our old car after 24 years, and so we got a hybrid because we’re were already committed to getting a new car.

We got our solar panels when it was time to replace our failing roof.

We got our new efficient electric dryer when our old gas dryer finally crapped out after 21 years.

We’ve slowly replaced almost every light in the house with LEDs as the old incandescents or their fixtures burned out.

To me, these transitions have been affordable considering I had to buy a new item anyway, and the upgraded item wasn’t that much more and would save money in the long term.

Fair points, some of them ;-).
Question: What is average cost of building a new home in your town?
Question 2: What is the median (not average) household income in your town?

 

[bjphoenix]

I oversized the solar panels. I am on a net metering plan with the Borg collective. But they won't pay me cash for the extra electricity I generate.
Sooooo, I have been replacing natural gas appliances as they wear out/fail. First was the gas water heater replaced by a heat pump water heater. Next will be the forced air furnace with a heat pump system. After that the clothes dryer. I will NEVER replace the gas cook top. NEVER!!

I've never heard of a heat pump water heater, that's a new one on me. Does it have a way to duct its cold air into the house in the summer and outside the house in winter?
My current house is all electric, there is no gas service in my neighborhood, so everything we own is electric. Our electric resistance furnace is pretty old and we have gotten quotes to replace it with a heat pump but it's a big number so we haven't gotten to the point of doing it yet. We put new cabinets in our kitchen and upgraded to an induction cooktop at that time.
Throughout my life I've lived in 6 different houses. I've always had electric stoves and ovens but except for my current house we had gas furnaces and water heaters. I'm not much of a cook so I wouldn't appreciate the advantages of a gas stove but my wife liked the induction stove.
Since home solar became a thing it would not have been possible for either of my houses. At our current house we are surrounded by large trees, there is almost no sunshine on our roof. At our previous house we had a strict HOA that would not have allowed solar panels.

 

[kuririn]

I've never heard of a heat pump water heater, that's a new one on me. Does it have a way to duct its cold air into the house in the summer and outside the house in winter?

My home has one. Sort of a reverse air conditioner. Takes heat from the ambient air to heat your water.
There were rebates from the feds and the local electric utility so I pulled the trigger about maybe 9 or so years ago.
Located in the carport, thought about making a two way duct valve to manually vent the cold air in or out of the house, but never did so.
Higher up front cost but pays for itself after a few years.
Definitely reduces the monthly electric bill.
BTW our electrical rates are the highest in the nation.
Around 40+ cents per kwh.
Reason: There are no cheap, readily available fossil fuel reserves nearby, everything must be shipped in.

 

[Alan15578]

This comes back to the issue of how stupid it is to keep using processes of creating energy that are highly inefficient compared to nuclear. We could easily have had clean and highly efficient energy by now but people were scared off by misinformation and lobbying from coal/oil/gas.

Nuclear is great, just ask Ukraine, Japan, even poorly cited US Plants.

 

[lakeroadster]

.....
BTW our electrical rates are the highest in the nation.
Around 40+ cents per kwh.
Reason: There are no cheap, readily available fossil fuel reserves nearby, everything must be shipped in.

They need to tap into the volcano... what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Marc_G]

I live in the Indianapolis area. We had a stretch of very cold weather after Xmas. The folks with gas heat saw a bump in their bills that month. The folks with electric heat had cold houses and bills 3-5x normal. The efficiency of electric heating goes down quickly as you head below freezing, and even with recent technology the bang for the buck isn't there when the daytime high is below zero F. Similarly tankless gas water heaters work great here but the electric ones struggle when the incoming water supply is 45F.

I'm a liberal and all for green energy. But they will take my gas stove, gas tankless water heater, and gas furnace from my cold dead fingers. In cold climates, the economics just aren't there.

 

[kuririn]

They need to tap into the volcano... what could possibly go wrong?

A lava flow.
https://climate-xchange.org/2020/10...f-the-puna-geothermal-plant-means-for-hawaii/

 

[Marc_G]

Oh, I should point out, my "gas stove" is actually dual fuel. The oven part is electric, because I prefer electric ovens for temperature uniformity. But the stovetop is gas, and that's the way I like it. Can't stand electric stove tops. Never tried induction cooktops but don't like the requirement for specific ferrous pans.

 

[Joel]

There aren't any forest fires in Co this winter either... Yes, that is how it works. I personally think the fires typically happen because of exhaustingly poor forest management. (I could tell stories about my brief encounter with USFS and using USAF C-130 MAFFS) Fires happen all over the place...just usually not when it's cold.

I understand you didn't get the joke.

Read a article recently that said some research is showing one of the reasons for glacial melting is soot from badly forested areas is setting on the polar caps and changing their albedo so that they are absorbing more sunlight than they used to.

 

[Bravo52]

If you can afford a newly built home, you can probably afford one built to a new building standard with electrical service upgrades, all-electric appliances, EV charger, and solar panels that will save on your utility bills.

And if your home didn’t come with solar, and you manage to pay your monthly electric bill, you can probably afford to finance a solar power system ...

This is all "probably" true but...

When I read the post I asked myself; "why does 'new' building standards cost more than old building standards?" From a practical perspective, they don't, they're just different. So you have to ask yourself why would it be more expensive? They are different but not more costly...unless...there is an agenda associated with it. That falls on government for making overreaching regulations, contractors for taking advantage of the mandates and manufacturers for doing the same. In a sense, the gov is providing an opportunity for builders/manufacturers to increase prices due to their mandates. (Cynical Mode: Off)

The other question that popped into my noggin was why is the government allowed to make use incur debt? You said "probably afford to finance" a solar system. Why must I if I don't want to.

I know this are not the intention of your main points, however, it seems there is always another layer to the onion when you start to think about the further reaching impacts of government mandates as in "stove-gate". A reasonable compromise is that if the fed/state/local government mandates something...they pay for it 100% regardless of what "percenter" someone is.

 

[darrenf]

Oh, I should point out, my "gas stove" is actually dual fuel. The oven part is electric, because I prefer electric ovens for temperature uniformity. But the stovetop is gas, and that's the way I like it. Can't stand electric stove tops. Never tried induction cooktops but don't like the requirement for specific ferrous pans.

Induction is fantastic. Ideally I would have a stove with 3 induction burners and one gas burner, just so I could use a regular wok once in a while.

 

[Bravo52]

Nuclear is great, just ask Ukraine, Japan, even poorly cited US Plants.

That's a tricky and lazy response to attributing deaths to nuclear power plants. Even the Wikipedia page questions the method of attribution. Fukushima for example had zero deaths from the nuclear accident. The Japanese Gov said "thousands died" due to stress related issues...but only one man had cancer and died (turns out, he had the big C before the accident). Sure, things associated with nuclear can be "attributed" to it but in the same way you could attribute some guy dying in a car crash on his way to service a windmill to green energy deaths. It's about perspective. It is without a doubt the Nuclear power is the cleanest and safest form of energy available...it also has a high potential to go wrong (risk/reward) but really hasn't over time.

Ironically enough, the same number of Soviets have died in nuclear submarine reactor deaths and the original Chernobyl accident.

 

[boatgeek]

So how long before they come to take your fossil fuel water heater, stove, furnace... NY state is already working to ban them for new construction.

Short answer: they won't. Because there's a lot more opposition to removal mandates than new construction mandates. State and local governments can change code for new construction or replacements.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

You can get a lot of constitutional mileage out of interstate commerce and "the general welfare". I'm pretty sure the Clean Air Act is still in effect, and allows the feds to address air quality issues where they exist.

FWIW, we have a gas furnace, fireplaces, and on-demand hot water heater. We are gradually replacing with local electric on-demand hot water heaters, but it's pretty hard to do that for a bathtub. The furnace will get replaced with a heat pump when it craps out, but that's likely to be on the fifth of never. We bought for the long term 15 years ago, and it's still going strong. The fireplaces are used for about 15-30 minutes at a time, mainly so we can heat one room instead of the entire house.