Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

[Funkworks]

It all depends on where you get your power from. It gets cut off, but he says "Our grid... is about 95% coal." So they have emmisions, just like ICEs, but they are just at another place.

The product, like a pair of socks, does not emit fumes, so you can run it in a garage without sleeping forever.

The product, like a pair of socks, has to be produced, but no consumer ever talked about production fumes until EV critics came along.


Less fumes over a lifetime than ICE, even when produced and powered by coal, and they're emitted far from homes and cites. If fumes are a concern to you, I posted comparison reports in that ICE vs EV thread: here, and here. If you have more reports, or if you do your own calculations from actual data, please post them in there.



My favorite news story this morning is from a few days ago and it's about Redwood Materials pushing on its battery recycling plans.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...tery-materials-factory-nevada-wsj-2022-07-25/

 

[MidOH]

Ah, OK. I find my car regenerating power whenever I slow down or go down a moderate slope...but even though it's kinda boxy, it is nowhere nearly as draggy as big trucks. Do you even downshift going down whatever you climb in your vehicle? If so there is where the regen would come in for an electric vehicle...you don't have to touch the brake pedal.

There's always going to be some energy gained back when slowing down using the motor for breaks. Which is fine, anything is better than nothing. But keep in mind the battery is usually a weak load and might not grab much. Using a motor for braking harder than what battery load provides, you have to short the phases of the stator and eat the heat. Or use a resistive load bank like a train.

My truck has 10psi of boost going downhill. On the throttle all the way. If I turn off cruise, I lose speed going downhill. Too much tire and aerodynamic drag. It has to be a super steep hill on the highway for my turbo brake to kick in. On a low speed mountainous back country road, regenerative braking could be really handy.

For now, I'm convinced that hybrid, with regen turbo, regen front brakes, is better than full on EV. Like a Lemans car layout. Mid engine rear wheel drive. Front drive is electric. Flip that backwards for economy cars. And make it front engine, rear wheel drive for trucks, electric front axle.

 

[BEC]

There's always going to be some energy gained back when slowing down using the motor for breaks. Which is fine, anything is better than nothing. But keep in mind the battery is usually a weak load and might not grab much. Using a motor for braking harder than what battery load provides, you have to short the phases of the stator and eat the heat. Or use a resistive load bank like a train.

My truck has 10psi of boost going downhill. On the throttle all the way. If I turn off cruise, I lose speed going downhill. Too much tire and aerodynamic drag. It has to be a super steep hill on the highway for my turbo brake to kick in. On a low speed mountainous back country road, regenerative braking could be really handy.

Wow. All I can say is that you have one draggy setup. Clearly electrifying what you have, with no drag reduction, is probably not the best idea at this time.

 

[Greg Furtman]

I ran across a new European EV maker and the price is affordable.

 

[Funkworks]

"AAA’s latest consumer survey reveals that one-quarter of Americans say they would be likely to buy an electric vehicle (powered exclusively by electricity, i.e., not a hybrid) for their next auto purchase, with Millennials leading the way (30%)"

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2022/07/americans-reveal-fresh-thoughts-on-electric-vehicles/

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

There’s a lot of new money for EVs in the Inflation Reduction Act, if it passes. This quote is from an article summarizing what is in the act:

Buyers of new electric vehicles would get a $7,500 tax credit applied at the point of sale . That would also apply to vehicles whose manufacturers are no longer eligible for an existing EV credit, such as Tesla and General Motors. Couples who earn less than $300,000 a year or individuals who earn less than $150,000 would be eligible. A new $4,000 tax credit would also apply to purchases of used EVs. Tens of millions of people would qualify for these credits. Other consumer rebates would subsidize the installation of more-efficient heat pumps, solar panels and more.

The credit for buying a used EV is interesting. And manufacturers no longer eligible for the current credit will like that the new $7,500 on new viehicles will apply to them too.

Here is the article. There is some political analysis in the article in terms of “political wins”, so if you are allergic to that kind of stuff, don’t read it. But if it doesn’t bother you, the article is a decent summary of what is in the bill, both EV related and not.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2022/07/28/manchin-schumer-climate-deal/

 

[BEC]

Grrrrrr. Paywall.....but it looks like the same article is in today's Seattle Times, so I have it in hand.

I am wondering what the terms of the tax credits are in this new bill. There was at some time talk of removing the "after x vehicles it phases out" aspect, which appears to be there, which would be good for Tesla and GM and Ford, but there was also something about the vehicles having to be union-made, which was aimed, probably at not giving the credit to Tesla buyers. I wonder if that's still in there — the article doesn't mention this.

I took advantage of a state tax credit on used EVs when I bought my Soul EV off its lease in early 2020. The leasing company, of course, got the Federal credit at the time (fall of 2016).

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Grrrrrr. Paywall.....

I am wondering what the terms of the tax credits are in this new bill. There was at some time talk of removing the "after x vehicles it phases out" aspect, which appears to be there, which would be good for Tesla and GM and Ford, but there was also something about the vehicles having to be union-made, which was aimed, probably at not giving the credit to Tesla buyers. I wonder if that's still in there.

I took advantage of a state tax credit on used EVs when I bought my Soul EV off its lease in early 2020. The leasing company, of course, got the Federal credit at the time (fall of 2016).

I’m not sure the article addresses all your questions, but here is a “gift link” that should get you past the paywall.

https://wapo.st/3oDDHlp
I think this act removes the phaseout of the subsidy for manufacturers who have sold more than a certain number of vehicles. But I don’t know about other requirements that might be placed on the subsidy eligibility.

 

[BEC]

Thank you for that link. There is an article that is an abridgment of the Washington Post piece in this morning's Seattle Times....but it's very interesting which paragraphs, and sometimes sentences, the Seattle Times left out. Some of it is the political content you alluded to in your prior post, but not all of it is that. Very interesting indeed!

But no, not an answer about that union-made provision.

 

[Funkworks]

Tesla's new structural battery pack (Texas Model Y with 4680 cells) up close:



Since the battery pack is the car's floor, the rest of the car frame doesn't have any:





An article (and company) all about the growing business of battery reuse and recycling:

https://corporate.enelx.com/en/question-and-answers/what-is-second-life-battery

 

[Greg Furtman]

Here's an interesting video about using solar cells on EVs.

 

[Greg Furtman]

Here's another look at the Sono Sion.

 

[kuririn]

Here's an interesting video about using solar cells on EVs.

Now apartment and condo owners of EVs will be fighting for the UNCOVERED parking stalls.
Heh.

 

[Funkworks]

Here's an interesting video about using solar cells on EVs.

The most remarkable thing I learned since driving a PHEV is that I never have to recharge the battery from 0-100%. Only what I use in a day, which is typically 30% (so I only have to charge from 70% to 100%.)

In the same way a typical PHEV can run for 25 miles on a daily charge, and more than 500 miles as a hybrid, the upcoming Aptera will be able to run for over 25 miles daily on solar, and up to 1000 miles on a charge.

Hopefully, people will accept that its profile is the result of what actually works aerodynamically. Every other exotic car shape we are lead to believe is functional, is actually a drag (as in a much higher Cd ).

Now apartment and condo owners of EVs will be fighting for the UNCOVERED parking stalls.
Heh.

I don't think this is a serious concern. No consumer solar car is available today (shortly, but not today), and many more non-solar EVs are on the way. People will be able to pick what suits their personal situation.

 

[kuririn]

I don't think this is a serious concern. No consumer solar car is available today (shortly, but not today), and many more non-solar EVs are on the way. People will be able to pick what suits their personal situation.

I was joking.
An EV covered with solar panels would actually be good for slobs like me. Forces me to wash my car more often. (Joking again).

 

[Funkworks]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Knowing how difficult creative product R&D can be, I tend to be defensive of those who do it, whether they make rockets, cars or something else.

But I enjoy thinking about this so: I'm pretty sure (> 99.99%) future solar cars will all have batteries too, so cleaning will actually be an option, based on how much we want to save on electricity bills. While a clean solar panel might be 22% efficient, a dusty one might be 15-20% (total guess). Also not a big concern. Also:

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Here's another look at the Sono Sion.

I kind of like this car! It seems very affordable. The solar charging is cool, but it seems like it would mostly only provide enough range to cover the “grocery getter” role. Realistically, I drive so little, solar might cover most of my range needs, but many people with an average commute would still need to plug it in.

The car-sharing aspect is also interesting. I really do not use even my primary car much at all, and a second car is something my wife and I like having, but we never get the value out of the investment. We basically pay to have it on standby. That’s why our second car is a beater piece of crap — not worth the expense to replace it. Maybe making a new car available for rental might make sense. Hmmm…

If you had the time for it, it might be kind of a fun novelty experiment to do a road trip in this solar car and never plug it in. Go down the coast from San Francisco to San Diego in short hops, using only the sun. It might take a month to get there.

Another interesting possibility might be to take it camping to an undeveloped site and have access to the solar power and stored battery power to run electric camping accessories, like lighting and refrigeration.

 

[Cape Byron]

Hybrid Corvette prototype bites the big one.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/corvette-e-ray-fire-destroys-prototype-hybrid/

 

[Hobie1dog]

In the same way a typical PHEV can run for 25 miles on a daily charge, and more than 500 miles as a hybrid, the upcoming Aptera will be able to run for over 25 miles daily on solar, and up to 1000 miles on a charge.

I hope great advancements are made very soon so that we can quit putting out heated toxins being belched out of every one of the 1.2 Billion cars on the road at any given moment.

 

[Funkworks]

I hope great advancements are made very soon so that we can quit putting out heated toxins being belched out of every one of the 1.2 Billion cars on the road at any given moment.

As far as I can tell from looking at EV news for almost a year now, all the major automakers are investing or building battery plants. It just takes some time to build the infrastructure they need to mass produce enough batteries for everyone. The delay is largely due to there being just so many of us consumers. Toyota for example could not replace their Corolla with an EV Corolla, because they just can't make enough batteries right now. It's a huge, worldwide problem to build 1B EV cars. It's been done with computers and smartphones, but it took years and EVs are on a whole other level.

Here's what seems to be a good contribution:

 

[user 35280]

https://insideevs.com/news/594055/gm-plug-charge-feature-existing-future-evs/

 

[Tyeeking]

As far as I can tell from looking at EV news for almost a year now, all the major automakers are investing or building battery plants. It just takes some time to build the infrastructure they need to mass produce enough batteries for everyone. The delay is largely due to there being just so many of us consumers. Toyota for example could not replace their Corolla with an EV Corolla, because they just can't make enough batteries right now. It's a huge, worldwide problem to build 1B EV cars. It's been done with computers and smartphones, but it took years and EVs are on a whole other level.

Here's what seems to be a good contribution:

So if demand is outstripping supply and would appear to continue to be the case into the foreseeable future why should taxpayers be required to subsidize the purchase of new EV’s?

 

[Funkworks]

So if demand is outstripping supply and would appear to continue to be the case into the foreseeable future why should taxpayers be required to subsidize the purchase of new EV’s?

I'm from the labs. I don't talk about taxes for EVs any more than I talk about taxes for model rockets. Please ask in here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/the-politics-of-incentives.172418/

 

[Tyeeking]

I'm from the labs. I don't talk about taxes for EVs any more than I talk about taxes for model rockets. Please ask in here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/the-politics-of-incentives.172418/

I wasn’t aware that model rockets were heavily subsidized. That’s ok. It was really more of a rhetorical question.

 

[Funkworks]

Mercedes has got a 40-ton truck-trailor:

https://media.daimlertruck.com/mars...c0luZGV4PTUmZnJvbUluZm9UeXBlSWQ9NDA2Mjg!&rs=0
Edit: and a semi under the Freighliner brand:
https://freightliner.com/trucks/ecascadia/

 

[Hobie1dog]

Mercedes has got a 40-ton truck-trailor:

https://media.daimlertruck.com/mars...c0luZGV4PTUmZnJvbUluZm9UeXBlSWQ9NDA2Mjg!&rs=0

My son was working with Freightliner as they have already developed their long-range semi-truck.

 

[KC3KNM]

So if demand is outstripping supply and would appear to continue to be the case into the foreseeable future why should taxpayers be required to subsidize the purchase of new EV’s?

Probably the same reason we’re forced to subsidize fossil fuels?

 

[Greg Furtman]

Probably the same reason we’re forced to subsidize fossil fuels?

I agree. Big Oil gets huge subsidies/tax breaks from the US Government thanks to the political whores in Congress.

 

[Tyeeking]

Probably the same reason we’re forced to subsidize fossil fuels

Please explain. There is no tax credit specifically for buying an ICE car. What unique subsidies (not genrsl accounting practices that apply to all extraction businesses) to the fossil fuel industry are you referring to?

 

[Tyeeking]

I agree. Big Oil gets huge subsidies/tax breaks from the US Government thanks to the political whores in Congress.

Please explain what huge subsides/tax breaks “Big Oil” receive that are unique to them and not just general accounting practices that are used by all extraction businesses.