The B14 is back!

[Tractionengines]

There's room in the Q-Jet casing for about 13.3 N-sec of Blue Thunder with the same core diameter of the B14. That would make it a D33T.

With a smaller core, the total impulse would increase somewhat (to maybe 15-16 N-sec) and the average thrust would probably be slightly reduced due to a longer burn time (like 0.5 seconds).

PLEASE... 18mm C & D Blue Thunder Q-Jets. (Then E & F in 24mm Blue Thunder Q-Jets)

I for SURE would stock up on them. Easy to light. Not the oxidation issues of white lightning. Not the cleanup issues from fast jack (black max). Really would round out the LPR lineup.

 

[prfesser]

Quit not your day job.
And, hey, it's not a core-burning BP B14, so don't get too excited, despite how much we like AeroTech. The original B14's thrust curve was unmatched in its day. Neck-breaker, we'd call it today, even in 18mm. (Think, vaguely, of the thrust curve for [the late] CTI's 68F240's V-Max motor.)
Still, it'll be fun to try - Blue Thunder is great!

Well...the Estes B14 had a burn time between 0.3 and 0.4 s, depending on the cutoff point selected. I don't recall the peak thrust of the QJet B14 but probably not a whole lot below 7.5 lb shown here. And if it makes a difference I suspect that the noise component of the B14-Q will be...enhanced...vs. the B14-E.

::

 

[kjhambrick]

Well...the Estes B14 had a burn time between 0.3 and 0.4 s, depending on the cutoff point selected. I don't recall the peak thrust of the QJet B14 but probably not a whole lot below 7.5 lb shown here. And if it makes a difference I suspect that the noise component of the B14-Q will be...enhanced...vs. the B14-E.

:View attachment 627686:

Thanks for the plot, @prfesser !

Interesting ... I don't see total impulse listed explicitly ... I guess it is an exercise for the reader ( 14 N * 0.4 s -> 5.6 Ns ) ...

But that can't be so for a B-motor ...

Gary posted four plots of B14T tests here and the peak thrust was in the 16 -to- 17 N range and 4.8 Ns total impulse in 0.4 sec ...

-- kjh

EDIT: added a link to Gary's post

 

[prfesser]

Captain Pedantic here...
It's those years of analytical chemistry, estimating between divisions... Even now I can't help it.... <insert Nomad's voice> AN-AL-IZ-ING...

The thrust curves are a bit different. I'll agree with Estes' figure above, burnout at 0.35 s. Average thrust looks like 13.6 but go with 13.7. 13.7x0.35= 4.8 Ns, yep. The B14-E has a maximum thrust of 33.8 N but...thrust rises above the average thrust for only about 0.14-0.15 seconds.

The B14-Q has a burn time of 0.41 s and a maximum thrust of 15 N but...thrust exceeds 13 N for over 0.25 seconds. Which one would be more effective as a booster? That's up for grabs until someone with more energy than me decides to see how each performs in OR, using *accurate* thrust curves for each.

(Based on the motor geometry I have some misgivings about the accuracy of the thrust curve in the Estes diagram. Coreburners tend to be rather more slowly progressive at the beginning, dropping off rather rapidly at the end. It would be cool to see some of the old motors like the B14-E, maybe the C8.0 or some FSI or Coaster motors, on a proper millisecond resolution thrust stand. If any could be found and sacrificed to a noble cause.

Seriously...I can think of no better use for an old motor than to put it on a thrust stand and see just how accurate the old curves were. Much more interesting than sticking it in a rocket to see if it works. Donate those old motors to TRA for testing on their thrust stand! They're valuable AND a tax deduction for education, I suspect! How much can be deducted probably depends on your honesty level. And how likely to be audited you would be.)

 

[Initiator001]

I'm a'thinkin' local proveyer of motors, one each BuyRocketMotors, needs to purchase a plethera of B14's for us local yahoos. I really need to get NAR permission to fly Estes and Centuri (aka Estes) B14s against the modern versions. Been a while since I last flew a B14.

Chas

I agree.

I have flown 'classic' B14s via the NAR's Expired Motor program but the QJet B14s look like a lot of fun.

Who thought 'B' motors would get so much attention?

 

[Daddyisabar]

Quit not your day job.
And, hey, it's not a core-burning BP B14, so don't get too excited, despite how much we like AeroTech. The original B14's thrust curve was unmatched in its day. Neck-breaker, we'd call it today, even in 18mm. (Think, vaguely, of the thrust curve for [the late] CTI's 68F240's V-Max motor.)
Still, it'll be fun to try - Blue Thunder is great!

I quit my day job years ago, now just building silly oddrocs and seeking more thrust to overcome ever increasing amounts of nose weight and abundant asymmetric drag from fins up front.

I have never even seen a B14 in person. All just grandiose tales and legends told by the old dudes. Ye ole core burners ruled the waives! SINGING! "RULE B14, B14 RULES THE WAIVES! B14s NEVER NEVER NEVER SHALL BE DUDS."

The blast that tears the sky!

Still more majestic, shall thou arise.

More dreadful from each launching stroke!

Grand Angels sing this strain.

Yes, with a B14 I can finally fly the rocket's red glare, the sports scale congreve rockets to blast any holed ups out of that fort.

Burning down the House. Old Hickory can't stop us now!

 

[smstachwick]

Alright, here are my findings for clustering the B14s. I made an effort to do this quickly and simply, so I just used the example cluster rocket in OR (with nose weight optimized for altitude performance in the B14T, cheating a little) and went with the certified curves according to the documents linked on ThrustCurve, and set wind to zero.

The Long: B14Ts, when quad-clustered, give excellent rod exit speed and figures for max acceleration, slightily beating out any other quad-B arrangement and leaving single Ds in the dust. Altitude is middling, even with the optimization. 547ft vs some other altitudes in the 400s, 500s, and 600s. Max velocity is high but beatable by a few D types. Such an arrangement would likely be a showstopper on the low-power pads, even if it's hardly efficient. It would also require some work to ensure reliable ignition, although Blue Thunder isn't known for being stubborn. This isn't too far off what you'd expect, given the known behavior of clusters and high-thrust motors.

The Short: The B14T says "Wake up! Pay attention to me!" but doesn't go too far.

The Sims:





The .ork files: (below)

 

[BEC]

Alright, here are my findings for clustering the B14s. I made an effort to do this quickly and simply, so I just used the example cluster rocket in OR (with nose weight optimized for altitude performance in the B14T, cheating a little) and went with the certified curves according to the documents linked on ThrustCurve, and set wind to zero.

The Long: B14Ts, when quad-clustered, give excellent rod exit speed and figures for max acceleration, slightily beating out any other quad-B arrangement and leaving single Ds in the dust. Altitude is middling, even with the optimization. 547ft vs some other altitudes in the 400s, 500s, and 600s. Max velocity is high but beatable by a few D types. Such an arrangement would likely be a showstopper on the low-power pads, even if it's hardly efficient. It would also require some work to ensure reliable ignition, although Blue Thunder isn't known for being stubborn. This isn't too far off what you'd expect, given the known behavior of clusters and high-thrust motors.

The Short: The B14T says "Wake up! Pay attention to me!" but doesn't go too far.

Which is to be expected as faster = much more drag (remember that drag goes up with the square of velocity).

I have flown C12s and C18s in the same models, with altimeters aboard and in every case I have flown, the C12 takes the same model higher than the C18 even though their total impulses are almost identical.

But that doesn't mean that the faster burning motors aren't fun!

I would go for Blue Thunder versions of the C and D Q-Jets in my own personal flying over the White Lighting ones simply because I'd expect they'd be more reliable to light for a longer time. For maximum altitude in a model for which it is suitable, I use the C12 or D16 over the C18 or D20. Sure, the snarly nature of the White Lighting motors has its own fun factor, and small Blue Thunder motors are NOT thunderous, but still....for the teleport effect, this B14 and any successors will be pretty much unmatched.

I think I have one, or maybe two, Estes B14s in my possession. If someone was going to set up the tests @prfesser proposes, I'd be willing to donate it/them to that cause, if we could figure out how to legally get them to the test site.

 

[smstachwick]

Which is to be expected as faster = much more drag (remember that drag goes up with the square of velocity).

I have flown C12s and C18s in the same models, with altimeters aboard and in every case I have flown, the C12 takes the same model higher than the C18 even though their total impulses are almost identical.

But that doesn't mean that the faster burning motors aren't fun!

I would go for Blue Thunder versions of the C and D Q-Jets in my own personal flying over the White Lighting ones simply because I'd expect they'd be more reliable to light for a longer time. For maximum altitude in a model for which it is suitable, I use the C12 or D16 over the C18 or D20. Sure, the snarly nature of the White Lighting motors has its own fun factor, and small Blue Thunder motors are NOT thunderous, but still....for the teleport effect, this B14 and any successors will be pretty much unmatched.

Yep, that’s the consensus that I’ve seen.

There’s a subtle distinction between a motor that puts on a performance vs one that delivers the most performance. The B14T goes in the former category.

 

[BEC]

There’s a subtle distinction between a motor that puts on a performance vs one that delivers the most performance. The B14T goes in the former category.

Well said!

 

[dr-ws]

I quit my day job years ago, now just building silly oddrocs and seeking more thrust to overcome ever increasing amounts of nose weight and abundant asymmetric drag from fins up front.

I have never even seen a B14 in person. All just grandiose tales and legends told by the old dudes. Ye ole core burners ruled the waives! SINGING! "RULE B14, B14 RULES THE WAIVES! B14s NEVER NEVER NEVER SHALL BE DUDS."

The bast that tears the sky!

Still more majestic, shall thou arrise.

More dreadful from each launching stroke!

Grand Angles sing this strain.

Yes, with a B14 I can finally fly the rocket's red glare, the sports scale congreve rockets to blast any holed ups out of that fort.

Burning down the House. Old Hickory can't stop us now!

Bast? Arrise? Angles? Damn, it is really tough to suppress the inherent grammar teacher (and spelling) influence.
Your creativity inspires; your written communication: not so much.
'Rocket's red glare' is more an R motor than a T, but I personally like both, so no one loses there.
As a B.A.R. who flew dozens of B14s in the '60s and '70s, I AM looking forward to trying the new AT B14s, and perhaps [hopefully] revisiting some history.
BTW, I'm not an old dude - I was born in 1956.

 

[Daddyisabar]

Bast? Arrise? Angles? Damn, it is really tough to suppress the inherent grammar teacher (and spelling) influence.
Your creativity inspires; your written communication: not so much.
'Rocket's red glare' is more an R motor than a T, but I personally like both, so no one loses there.
As a B.A.R. who flew dozens of B14s in the '60s and '70s, I AM looking forward to trying the new AT B14s, and perhaps [hopefully] revisiting some history.
BTW, I'm not an old dude - I was born in 1956.

Typing on my phone. Shakes and bad eyes, don't expect much from this old dude born in '66. But I do expect Elysium from the new B14.

 

[PDawg]

A B-14 is Cool, but a C-14 would be cooler.

 

[smstachwick]

A B-14 is Cool, but a C-14 would be cooler.

A C motor with this propellant would be somewhere in, what, the C20-something range? I know the casing handles a D20 OK, I’m not in a position to know if it can take more pressure than that.

 

[dr-ws]

Typing on my phone. Shakes and bad eyes, don't expect much from this old dude born in '66. But I do expect Elysium from the new B14.

Elysium: good reference for your expectations - impressive!
BTW, I quite enjoy your [biplane] avatar. 18mm MMT? 24mm? Kit, or your creation? Regardless, well-done!

A B-14 is Cool, but a C-14 would be cooler.

Passing on the D18 and D20? OK, they are Ds, and we do have C11s (could these be made into 18mm cases?). Perhaps your C14 would be cooler. Still miss the original GP B14s. . .

 

[kjhambrick]

Bast? Arrise? Angles? Damn, it is really tough to suppress the inherent grammar teacher (and spelling) influence.
Your creativity inspires; your written communication: not so much.
'Rocket's red glare' is more an R motor than a T, but I personally like both, so no one loses there.
As a B.A.R. who flew dozens of B14s in the '60s and '70s, I AM looking forward to trying the new AT B14s, and perhaps [hopefully] revisiting some history.
BTW, I'm not an old dude - I was born in 1956.

Yep ... You're a young'un @dr-ws ... shucks, I was born all the way back in 1954 !

I used to love the B14 in my old 1960-something Estes Aerobee 300 -- it flew fast but not so high that I was going lose it.

-- kjh

 

[Tractionengines]

A B-14 is Cool, but a C-14 would be cooler.

A C motor with this propellant would be somewhere in, what, the C20-something range? I know the casing handles a D20 OK, I’m not in a position to know if it can take more pressure than that.

See post #55 from Aerotech earlier in this thread. The 18mm case maxed out with Blue Thunder is a D33 with minimum core estimated burn time of 1/2 second.

T.B.D. if / when the BT LPR motor line expands. But in my opinion it's likely based on what they did with the FJ and W versions...

 

[smstachwick]

See post #55 from Aerotech earlier in this thread. The 18mm case maxed out with Blue Thunder is a D33 with minimum core estimated burn time of 1/2 second.

Those numbers could easily come from something like BurnSim instead of a practical test. Casing strength is the big question mark I haven’t seen an answer for yet.

T.B.D. if / when the BT LPR motor line expands. But in my opinion it's likely based on what they did with the FJ and W versions...

One can certainly dream. I know they’re putting the C3.4T and D2.3T end-burners into seasonal production soon.

 

[Daddyisabar]

Elysium: good reference for your expectations - impressive!
BTW, I quite enjoy your [biplane] avatar. 18mm MMT? 24mm? Kit, or your creation?

Albatross DV. Thread here on the forum. 3X29mm Estes F15 4.

 

[cwbullet]

Alright, here are my findings for clustering the B14s. I made an effort to do this quickly and simply, so I just used the example cluster rocket in OR (with nose weight optimized for altitude performance in the B14T, cheating a little) and went with the certified curves according to the documents linked on ThrustCurve, and set wind to zero.

The Long: B14Ts, when quad-clustered, give excellent rod exit speed and figures for max acceleration, slightily beating out any other quad-B arrangement and leaving single Ds in the dust. Altitude is middling, even with the optimization. 547ft vs some other altitudes in the 400s, 500s, and 600s. Max velocity is high but beatable by a few D types. Such an arrangement would likely be a showstopper on the low-power pads, even if it's hardly efficient. It would also require some work to ensure reliable ignition, although Blue Thunder isn't known for being stubborn. This isn't too far off what you'd expect, given the known behavior of clusters and high-thrust motors.

The Short: The B14T says "Wake up! Pay attention to me!" but doesn't go too far.

The Sims:

View attachment 627704

View attachment 627705

The .ork files: (below)

Nice design!

 

[smstachwick]

Nice design!

I can’t take credit for it, it’s been an example rocket forever, you can find it on your own install. The only work I did on it was installing a 24mm mount for comparison with the single-motor options.

 

[dr-ws]

I used to love the B14 in my old 1960-something Estes Aerobee 300 -- it flew fast but not so high that I was going lose it.

-- kjh

[Centuri?] Javelin, for me (1968? '69?). And yes, when I wanted to try to lose it (not really - I hate losing any rocket!), it would be with a C6-7. The B14 just got it to a certain height really, really quickly.

 

[cwbullet]

I am glad that this is a blue and not one of the white quest motors. Not happy with the chuffs on the white Quest propellants.

 

[kramer714]

Even though it may not be the same, I cant wait to experience the thrill of a B14!

did they ever leave?

I have some Damon / Estes

A8-0
B4-2
B6-0
B14-5
C6-7

If anyone is interested in these, msg me

 

[kramer714]

 

[smstachwick]

did they ever leave?

I have some Damon / Estes

A8-0
B4-2
B6-0
B14-5
C6-7

If anyone is interested in these, msg me


View attachment 629898
View attachment 629899

They went OOP sometime in the 70s, replaced with partially-cored B8s and C5s.

 

[kramer714]

They went OOP sometime in the 70s, replaced with partially-cored B8s and C5s.

anyone want to buy the ones I have (in Southern California) let me know. All of the old Estes / Damon ones.

 

[smstachwick]

anyone want to buy the ones I have (in Southern California) let me know. All of the old Estes / Damon ones.

I’m in the area (we’ve met at ROC, I’m pretty sure), but I think those motors would best be used by somebody with access to high-quality static test equipment. Comparing data between these motors and the new ones would be an excellent use for them.

 

[Initiator001]

They went OOP sometime in the 70s, replaced with partially-cored B8s and C5s.

The Estes B14 motor last appeared in the 1979 catalog.
The 1980 Estes catalog introduced the B8 motors.
Interestingly, the 1980 Centuri catalog still listed the B14 motors.
The 1981 Centuri catalog had both the B8 and B14 motors.
Centuri's 1982 catalog only listed the B8.

The C5 motor was created for Centuri's Super Kits which were draggier and heavier than other 18mm motor kits.
At the time Centuri did not have any 24mm motors i.e. D12s.

 

[dpower]

These B14 Q-Jets are going to be fun. I fly a lot of C12/D16 Q-Jets, gave up om the B6 Q-Jets (too hard to light, not as much thrust off the pad as a BP B6). I think we finally have a Q-Jet B motor with some real utility! Should be fun to cluster too, though the C12/D16 Q-Jets cluster quite well. Bring on B Eggloft!