The B14 is back!

[Voyhager3]

Even though it may not be the same, I cant wait to experience the thrill of a B14!

 

[tsmith1315]

BUT I'd say the coolest and most noteworthy things about the New B14 are:

1. Blue Thunder propellant

Yes.

 

[BEC]

+1 for Blue Thunder. I'd love to see this come to Cs and Ds as well, and even to the 24mm Q-Jets.

For me already the White Lighting motors (C18s, D20s), only two years old, are taking more than one initiator to get going. And those initiators ain't cheap or easy to get separately.

I can only imagine what they'll be like a few years hence.

 

[prfesser]

Played in OR a little with the placeholder .eng file that @kjhambrick posted in the AT thread.

It looks like the sweet spot for this is to turn 24mm mid-power rockets into park flyers. It gets reasonably light BT-55 and BT-60 rockets off the rod with exit speed in between C11 and D12, but then only sends them a few hundred feet, like 300-400. Should keep them easily recovered in the field across the street from my house, which is surrounded by trees and water. I'm talking Goblin to BT-60 Alpha range. Smaller stuff, like BT-50 and below, will still fly well to appropriate apogees on cheaper BP motors. This should be fun.

As a kid that would have been great to use! Never had many places to launch that weren't snarfed up by rocket-eating trees, recovery areas just weren't big. Big, low, slow...always been my favorite whether high/mid/low power.

 

[SolarYellow]

+1 for Blue Thunder. I'd love to see this come to Cs and Ds as well, and even to the 24mm Q-Jets.

That, right there.

 

[BEC]

That, right there.

But I suppose we ought to let Gary and Karl and company get those B14s out in the wild and flown some first....

Added: a B14-3 in a Big Bertha would probably be a great small field demo setup.

 

[AeroTech]

That, right there.

Yes, the phenolic nozzle inserts open up all sorts of propellant possibilities.

 

[smstachwick]

I really need to break out OpenRocket again and do some tests, if anyone would be kind enough to supply the appropriate motor file. Clustering in particular could be a great deal of fun, or get really out of hand pretty quick.

 

[Back_at_it]

But I suppose we ought to let Gary and Karl and company get those B14s out in the wild and flown some first....

Added: a B14-3 in a Big Bertha would probably be a great small field demo setup.

My old Bertha was the reason I horded so many B14-5's back in the day. I loved that huge push off the pad. We use to clean the hobby shop out of B14-5's every time was there.

 

[kjhambrick]

I really need to break out OpenRocket again and do some tests, if anyone would be kind enough to supply the appropriate motor file. Clustering in particular could be a great deal of fun, or get really out of hand pretty quick.

Here you go, Shane ...

1. a plot of the attached b14t,eng file

The b14t.eng file does work fine in Open Rocket ( note the 1st row ) ... it will be pretty kool to fly the Blue Raven in a 24mm rocket on a B-Motor !


Have fun !

-- kjh

This is the data in the .eng:

;B14T entered by kjh from AT posted thrust curve
B14T        18          70     3-5-7     0.0023  0.0178  A       
             0.020       0.10
             0.040      10.00
             0.045       9.80
             0.100      13.00
             0.200      14.00
             0.350      15.00
             0.380       7.00
             0.400       5.00
             0.420       0.00
;Total Impulse           4.80 (N-Sec)
;Avg Thrust             11.44 (N)
;Specific Imp          212.97 (Sec)
;

 

[smstachwick]

Here you go, Shane ...

1. a plot of the attached b14t,eng file
View attachment 627066
The b14t.eng file does work fine in Open Rocket ( note the 1st row ) ... it will be pretty kool to fly the Blue Raven in a 24mm rocket on a B-Motor !
View attachment 627068

Have fun !

-- kjh

This is the data in the .eng:

;B14T entered by kjh from AT posted thrust curve
B14T        18          70     3-5-7     0.0023  0.0178  A      
             0.020       0.10
             0.040      10.00
             0.045       9.80
             0.100      13.00
             0.200      14.00
             0.350      15.00
             0.380       7.00
             0.400       5.00
             0.420       0.00
;Total Impulse           4.80 (N-Sec)
;Avg Thrust             11.44 (N)
;Specific Imp          212.97 (Sec)
;

You’re the best, thanks.

 

[terryg]

Better have a fast igniter for clustering....

 

[Cape Byron]

Better have a fast igniter for clustering....

Two or more for a cluster…

Just sayin’.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Have to try them in my scaled down Ultimate. Planning on flying it this weekend on 3 F23s. Electronic deployment.

 

[AeroTech]

Maybe. I flew a lot of Estes B14s back in the day. I held the perception that it was as good as a C engine, but cheaper. Po' Boy C engine. So I flew a lot of them, and have some nostalgia about that.

As for a new legendary following... skeptical. The hobby is different. The motor is different. I'm different...

BUT I'd say the coolest and most noteworthy things about the New B14 are:

1. Blue Thunder propellant - nothing like a bunch of slowly oxidizing White Lightning to put a damper on your enjoyment of the hobby. Hard to ignite, chuffing SOBs that need gram of copper thermite up the wazoo to light... Injecting some Blue Thunder into the Q-Jet lineup was a great idea!

2. The phenolic nozzle. I thought that the demise of the D10 and D21 motors had to do with not being able to source a particular type of 18mm phenolic nozzle for SU motors. They apparently back. Even if I'm wrong - A 18mm SU motor with a phenolic nozzle - how cool is that?

The D10W and D21T used a compression molded one-piece phenolic case & nozzle. The supplier couldn’t consistently maintain the case strength. The B14T uses the 18mm Q-Jet injection molded thermoplastic case but with a phenolic nozzle insert, like the 24mm F41W.

 

[DigBaddy]

Math fun.

Comparisons:
The D20W has 9g of propellant in that case.
The D16FJ has 13g of propellant.

This B14T has only 2.3g of propellant.

With 9G of T you mathematically get an 18.8 Nsec motor. Say a 0.6 second burn; you get a D31. Whee!!

With 13g of propellant, you get 27.1 Nsec; a nice E! With a 0.8 burn, that's an E34.

I would have serious doubts about the case handling that; but maybe.

Anyways, fun to play with numbers. I would buy a crap-ton of these small punchy motors if they existed!

 

[smstachwick]

Math fun.

Comparisons:
The D20W has 9g of propellant in that case.
The D16FJ has 13g of propellant.

This B14T has only 2.3g of propellant.

With 9G of T you mathematically get an 18.8 Nsec motor. Say a 0.6 second burn; you get a D31. Whee!!

With 13g of propellant, you get 27.1 Nsec; a nice E! With a 0.8 burn, that's an E34.

I would have serious doubts about the case handling that; but maybe.

Anyways, fun to play with numbers. I would buy a crap-ton of these small punchy motors if they existed!

You have to think about mass density and energy density in that propellant, as well as how it behaves with the empty space in the casing vs without. I doubt it’s completely linear. But that doesn’t seem too horrifically far off, given the old E27s (baby Es) that used to be available in the RMS 18 hardware using Blue Thunder.

 

[DigBaddy]

You have to think about mass density and energy density in that propellant, as well as how it behaves with the empty space in the casing vs without. I doubt it’s completely linear. But that doesn’t seem too horrifically far off, given the old E27s (baby Es) that used to be available in the RMS 18 hardware using Blue Thunder.

Oh yeah. I'm not a motor design expert nor do I play one on TV.

What I also hope for is the thrust profile of the F32 to make it into the more affordable 24mm Q-Jet case.

 

[Art Upton]

You have to think about mass density and energy density in that propellant, as well as how it behaves with the empty space in the casing vs without. I doubt it’s completely linear. But that doesn’t seem too horrifically far off, given the old E27s (baby Es) that used to be available in the RMS 18 hardware using Blue Thunder.

We had Baby 18mm Single Use E as well back in the day. I might be recalling an experimental 18mm F was made by someone.

 

[smstachwick]

We had Baby 18mm Single Use E as well back in the day. I might be recalling an experimental 18mm F was made by someone.

Definitely, you can find video of people flying them. But I agree with the assessment that the Q-Jet casings wouldn’t take the abuse. Operating pressure will likely be the limiting factor here.

 

[5x7]

The Aerotech E45 was a single use 18mm nearly full E and the Aerotech F55 was an 18mm baby F. Not experimental, and lots of fun.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

The Aerotech E45 was a single use 18mm nearly full E and the Aerotech F55 was an 18mm baby F. Not experimental, and lots of fun.

Still have 1 of each. Currently making long 18 mm motors up through full F.

 

[bad_idea]

Better have a fast igniter for clustering....

That's the big drawback to small composite clusters. I can fit various forms of fast starter through through throats of E and larger motors, but I'm undecided on how I'll approach clustering D and smaller motors with those tiny throats.

the old E27s (baby Es) that used to be available in the RMS 18 hardware using Blue Thunder.

I have a few packs of those E27s. By the time I get the grains cleaned up, I'm wondering if they'll be down in the D-impulse range.

 

[Buzzard]

I'm a'thinkin' local proveyer of motors, one each BuyRocketMotors, needs to purchase a plethera of B14's for us local yahoos. I really need to get NAR permission to fly Estes and Centuri (aka Estes) B14s against the modern versions. Been a while since I last flew a B14.

Chas

 

[AeroTech]

There's room in the Q-Jet casing for about 13.3 N-sec of Blue Thunder with the same core diameter of the B14. That would make it a D33T.

With a smaller core, the total impulse would increase somewhat (to maybe 15-16 N-sec) and the average thrust would probably be slightly reduced due to a longer burn time (like 0.5 seconds).

 

[SolarYellow]

There's room in the Q-Jet casing for about 13.3 N-sec of Blue Thunder with the same core diameter of the B14. That would make it a D33T.

With a smaller core, the total impulse would increase somewhat (to maybe 15-16 N-sec) and the average thrust would probably be slightly reduced due to a longer burn time (like 0.5 seconds).

Would love to see that, and whatever you could do in a 24x70 or 24x95.

 

[BEC]

There's room in the Q-Jet casing for about 13.3 N-sec of Blue Thunder with the same core diameter of the B14. That would make it a D33T.

With a smaller core, the total impulse would increase somewhat (to maybe 15-16 N-sec) and the average thrust would probably be slightly reduced due to a longer burn time (like 0.5 seconds).

With a core just big enough for a FirstFire Micro....that would be seriously cool.

While we're playing crazy "what if" games, what if you made an end burner? That might make an amazing motor for boost gliders and rocket gliders.

I know, Gary, one thing at a time!

 

[smstachwick]

There's room in the Q-Jet casing for about 13.3 N-sec of Blue Thunder with the same core diameter of the B14. That would make it a D33T.

With a smaller core, the total impulse would increase somewhat (to maybe 15-16 N-sec) and the average thrust would probably be slightly reduced due to a longer burn time (like 0.5 seconds).

Don’t tease us like that.

 

[kjhambrick]

Yes !

One each, 18mm C and D impulse Blue Thunder motors would certainly round out the 18mm Q-Jet offerings.

That appeals to my personal OCD

And I would buy them 'for the granddaughters'

But then again, I've learned from Gary here on TRF that it costs a lot of money to certify a new motor so whatever makes sense for the biz ...

-- kjh

 

[dr-ws]

SINGING:

My B14s back and I'm gonna have a good time!
Hey-la-day-la my B14s back!

He's been gone for such a long time.
Hey-la-day-la my B14s back.

Now he's back and things will be fine.
Hey-la-day-la my B14s back.

Quit not your day job.
And, hey, it's not a core-burning BP B14, so don't get too excited, despite how much we like AeroTech. The original B14's thrust curve was unmatched in its day. Neck-breaker, we'd call it today, even in 18mm. (Think, vaguely, of the thrust curve for [the late] CTI's 68F240's V-Max motor.)
Still, it'll be fun to try - Blue Thunder is great!