RDX in APCP

[cajer]

Is synthesizing RDX for use in an APCP propellant legal for college research purposes? If so, have there been any hobbyist that have done so?

 

[MarkII]

Got an explosives license? Go to the ATF website and review the Orange Book.

 

[cajer]

I'm reading it right now, but is there any literature on it or any hobbyists with experience on this topic?

 

[edwinshap1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-fuel_rocket#Propellant_families

Look under HEC.

technically a type of solid rocket fuel, but you'll be dealing with a high explosive, so unless you know someone with an HEUP you're SOL.

 

[cajer]

So is there anything more energetic than APCP that I could make without a permit? Will doing research at a college give me access to anything a normal person may have?

 

[Johnly]

So is there anything more energetic than APCP that I could make without a permit? Will doing research at a college give me access to anything a normal person may have?

RDX is used to fabricate a propellant with a low smoke signature (metal free) without tanking the ISP. If you can live with smoke, then the need for RDX isn't that critical. :wink:

There are exotic oxidizers and binders that one can use to exceed an ISP of 260, but they are really spendy >$1000 a pound and have "issues".

John

 

[edwinshap1]

i second what johnly said. and technically if you intend to make a large motor, you'll need an LEUP or you'll have to "pour the motor" on site. i don't know the exact regulations now, but i think that's the case.

If it's for a college project, i'd try to get in touch with an engineering/chemistry professor to help you out, but unless is their specialization they'll probably only point you in the right direction.

If you live in the US, and are NAR/tripoli L1 and 18+ you can get access to the research forum where you can probably get these questions answered easily and precisely

 

[r1dermon]

Your college is whom you should consult with. Synthesizing rdx (or most he for that matter) can turn bad in an instant. I have seen the after effects of runaways that have caused irreparable physical damage to peoples arms and torso.

If your college has the required permits and storage, they will be able to help you...but it might prove futile to seek advise regarding HE, on an internet forum.

APCP is pretty potent for a solid fuel...why the interest in nitroamines?

 

[troj]

If I remember right, colleges and universities aren't required to have explosives permits, if it's school-sponsored research, however you can bet that they'll follow storage and other procedures. If nothing else, for pure safety reasons.

And regardless of where it's done, you can bet that messing with RDX is going to attract the attention of the authorities.

-Kevin

 

[r1dermon]

Permits will be required for storage. Im not sure how colleges deal with chain of custody, but i can guarantee there IS one. Hahaha.

But yes, they are exempt from licensing requirements outlined in 27cfr part 555.

 

[ClayD]

Is synthesizing RDX for use in an APCP propellant legal for college research purposes? If so, have there been any hobbyist that have done so?

THis is an oxymoron... theres no such thing as University hobby research....

There may be university reasearchers that have done so, at that level who are also hobbiests... (i am sure there are some commercial motor makers who have too)

Universities have avenues to discern the legality, and liability responsibility they take on with thier activities...
I am guessing the state level realmifictions are hefty...

 

[daveyfire]

If I remember right, colleges and universities aren't required to have explosives permits, if it's school-sponsored research, however you can bet that they'll follow storage and other procedures. If nothing else, for pure safety reasons.

Any DoD contract funding university research will require you to follow 27 CFR 555 subpart K. With a few extra surprises. Ask me how I know :eyeroll:

Synthesizing RDX is fairly elementary, but if you're doing research on propellants, it's much cheaper to buy the stuff than it is to synthesize it. What's your goal of including RDX in your propellant? Like John said, run some Isp calculations and see what happens. (Sheesh this topic is coming up a lot lately.)

 

[jsdemar]

Permits will be required for storage. Im not sure how colleges deal with chain of custody, but i can guarantee there IS one. Hahaha.

But yes, they are exempt from licensing requirements outlined in 27cfr part 555.

ATFE licensing exemption only applied to public universities. In all cases, storage and local regulations still apply. And anyone with independent custody of the material still needs an ATFE permit.

 

[MClark]

By the time you get all the permits, a facility that is legal to make it and all the equipment and shielding it would be cheaper just to buy it.

I find it interesting that you have no info on your profile, you join and the only post you make is about making RDX.

Mark

 

[Larry Curcio]

Is synthesizing RDX for use in an APCP propellant legal for college research purposes? If so, have there been any hobbyist that have done so?

I'm sorry. I've never heard of RDX being used in propellant applications. As far as I know, it's a rapidly-detonating-explosive. Hence the name.

You guys have references on this? I'm kinda astonished.

Regards,
-LarryC

 

[VARocketflyer]

By the time you get all the permits, a facility that is legal to make it and all the equipment and shielding it would be cheaper just to buy it.

I find it interesting that you have no info on your profile, you join and the only post you make is about making RDX.

Mark

Mark makes a very good point here and honestly one I had not paid attention to. We all probably need to be more aware of this than we often are.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[r1dermon]

RDX burns when lit on fire. it wont detonate unless a shock is imparted to the material. i have heard of RDX and HMX being used in rocket motors via wikipedia, however, i do not know of any specific applications where they were used. i presume there are members of this board who do know however.

i know some people who have used nitrocellulose material to manufacture "amateur rockets"...i wont delve into it, but i could presume from their relative successes, that it's not beyond the realm of possibility, that a highly energetic material such as RDX, could be used for a rocket motor application. the safety of such a device, im confident, is not something that an "amateur" could thoroughly account for without a good bit of funding and oversight.

it sounds as if you are interested in working with energetic materials...if that is the case, i strongly suggest you follow all legal avenues to reach your goals. the amount of respect required for such a small quantity of materials is staggering. if you'd like to learn more, and possibly apprentice with a licensed, insured, trained blasting technician, i would suggest you start here. https://www.isee.org/

 

[JDcluster]

Every time I question people from where they coming from, I get blasted for doing so....


JD

Mark makes a very good point here and honestly one I had not paid attention to. We all probably need to be more aware of this than we often are.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[bobkrech]

Is synthesizing RDX for use in an APCP propellant legal for college research purposes? If so, have there been any hobbyist that have done so?

No. RDX is a 1.1 explosive.

The manufacture, possession and/or storage of HMX or any oher high explosives without an explosives permit violates a number of Federal, State and local regulations, and will get the person in serious federal hot water.



Bob

 

[cbrarick]

If you live in the US, and are NAR/tripoli L1 and 18+ you can get access to the research forum where you can probably get these questions answered easily and precisely

Actually, he needs to do his TRA levelly 2 to fly any research motor. And he either has to go to a launch or file FAA paperwork to fly any rocket.

He's got some significant issues to overcome before he starts mixing anything....

 

[Rocketman248]

But he only needs Level 1 to join the Research section of TRF.

 

[Sooner Boomer]

Don't take legal advice from anyone on the web. If you're working at a University, they will have guidelines for working with hazardous substances, plus they will have lawyers. Don't risk jail or worse taking advice from "some guy on a forum" (except me :wink.

 

[MarkII]

This is information, not advice. The OP didn't ask for advice. As can be discerned from the posts, nobody uses this stuff on the hobby level. So that answers the second of cajer's questions.

 

[jsdemar]

Last I heard, the Internats competition motors, made in the Czech republic, use an HE ingredients, possibly RDX. There used to be other small high-performance motors made outside the US that were dubbed "widow makers" due to the likely demise of the motor builder.

 

[cajer]

Thanks for the answers guys. After some more research, I think that with the legal hurdles that I have to jump over to use RDX and the minimal Isp increase of plain APCP I will just go with using APCP.