Do I really need a Cargo Van or U-hall to transport Motor?

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BlueSky

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I have been serving as an advisor for a Rocket team in a small college. Over the past several years, I took students to various launching sites and competitions using either my personal vehicles for small trips or vehicles rented by the college for longer trips. So far, no accidents have occurred on any of these trips.

This year, we started experiencing obstacles from the college administration regarding the safety of our projects. A newly hired lawyer from the school's "Risk Management" department started questioning our practice in terms of motor transportation and storage. She insists that we shouldn't transport students and motors in the same vehicle (especially the college-rented ones). Instead, we should reserve a cargo van or U-hall for motor transportation. Since the college doesn't allow students (employed or unemployed) to drive college-rented vehicles, I then become the only driver for any of our trips. In this case, it will be impossible for me to drive 2 vehicles to transport both the motor and students for the same trip.

Another obstacle comes from the motor storage. She claims that it is not safe to store motors in metallic cabinets.

So here are my questions:

1. Where can I find documents/articles discussing the safety of motor transportation? I want to provide evidence to this lawyer to demonstrate that it is safe to transport both motor and students together using just one college-rented passenger van. She won't be satisfied with a simple statement such as "this is what other people are doing with their motors". I searched the forum and didn't find much information on this. It will be helpful if someone can give me a direction so that I can dig and search.

2. Is it necessary for us to invest in a $5000 magazine for storing our motors?

Thank you!
 
You will get a TON of OPINIONS about this. And some will even come with "supporting information". That will be followed by a contradictory view, also with supporting information.

There are a lot of regulations from many different organizations. (DOT, BATF, State, local, etc.) Then there are specific categories of classifications. What is a business vs an individual may do.

A school while being a "organization" is often legally treated as an "individual / consumer"...so schools are FOR SURE a gray area.. ie a business going to sell motors at a launch needs to transport motors with placards, hazmat paperwork, DOT approvals, etc. An individual hobbyist can toss the same motor in the trunk of their car and drive to the launch site.

So it depends how well you can convince the new lawyer the school is an individual (consumer), in this case. If you can, your good to go. If they keep the view that the university is a business, then you'll have a LOT of issues.

PLEASE reach out to mentors of some of the other school programs. They'll be able to give you specifics of how to approach this in a university/school setting.
 
DOT regulation only apply to motors transported "in commerce". The college isn't transporting them to sell, nor are they going to make money off of a commercial launch service. This is all spelled out in the DOT regulations and DOT clarification responses online.
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/standards...d-questions-applicability-hazardous-materials

If the college's insurance policy has any clauses related to "hazardous materials", that would override anything in the Federal regulations. If there's no limitation in their policy about mixing students and hazmat, it should be ok. If it's just the opinion of the college's attorney ("not on my watch"), you're at a dead end.
 
Just how big are these motors? I should think an ordinary rental car ought to do the job.

How does this lawyer feel about trailers? You can point the motors so they only threaten the motorists behind you, rather than the students. ;-) Do you know if the lawyer has a case of nerves, just wants you to take more precautions, or wants to shut you down? I should think appropriate tactics would be different in each case.

Have you asked the lawyer for the appropriate technical reference that states that metal cabinets are unsafe and lays out alternatives? Or maybe she's just making that up?
 
I would think passenger van + trailer should satisfy most of the transportation safety checklist.

For storage, lining a metal cabinet with wood could meet magazine requirements.

Do I think these are necessary? No. But if the paper people think they are, then they become so.
 
I didn't know lawyers gave legal advice on the safe storage practices of anything but the money and information belonging to a client.

Maybe law schools are now incorporating fire safety topics in their first and second year curriculums? Many legal files are still stored on paper and paper is flammable, so I guess it's possible. 😆
 
Tractionengines said:
You will get a TON of OPINIONS about this. And some will even come with "supporting information". That will be followed by a contradictory view, also with supporting information.

There are a lot of regulations from many different organizations. (DOT, BATF, State, local, etc.) Then there are specific categories of classifications. What is a business vs an individual may do.

A school while being a "organization" is often legally treated as an "individual / consumer"...so schools are FOR SURE a gray area.. ie a business going to sell motors at a launch needs to transport motors with placards, hazmat paperwork, DOT approvals, etc. An individual hobbyist can toss the same motor in the trunk of their car and drive to the launch site.

So it depends how well you can convince the new lawyer the school is an individual (consumer), in this case. If you can, your good to go. If they keep the view that the university is a business, then you'll have a LOT of issues.

PLEASE reach out to mentors of some of the other school programs. They'll be able to give you specifics of how to approach this in a university/school setting.
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
 
jsdemar said:
DOT regulation only apply to motors transported "in commerce". The college isn't transporting them to sell, nor are they going to make money off of a commercial launch service. This is all spelled out in the DOT regulations and DOT clarification responses online.
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/standards...d-questions-applicability-hazardous-materials

If the college's insurance policy has any clauses related to "hazardous materials", that would override anything in the Federal regulations. If there's no limitation in their policy about mixing students and hazmat, it should be ok. If it's just the opinion of the college's attorney ("not on my watch"), you're at a dead end.
Click to expand...
John:

Thank you so much for the information. That is very helpful! I really appreciate your sharing!
 
lr64 said:
Just how big are these motors? I should think an ordinary rental car ought to do the job.

How does this lawyer feel about trailers? You can point the motors so they only threaten the motorists behind you, rather than the students. ;-) Do you know if the lawyer has a case of nerves, just wants you to take more precautions, or wants to shut you down? I should think appropriate tactics would be different in each case.

Have you asked the lawyer for the appropriate technical reference that states that metal cabinets are unsafe and lays out alternatives? Or maybe she's just making that up?
Click to expand...

That's a great idea! Connecting a passenger with a trailer could really help address the issue. Thanks!
 
Thanks to everyone for sharing your suggestions!

I believe the primary concern the lawyer is raising revolves around the potential liability risks associated with motor transportation for the college. Her central question has consistently been whether such incidents could lead to legal action against the college.
 
jsdemar said:
If the college's insurance policy has any clauses related to "hazardous materials", that would override anything in the Federal regulations.
Click to expand...
^This. I suspect her legal opinion ties back to the College's insurance underwriting. Would be good to simply ask her why she's insisting on this position.
 
Zeus-cat said:
Not that it makes any difference, but it seems to me that people who worry about rocket motors igniting without igniters in them have never actually tried to ignite one.
Click to expand...
Especially with a crapperhead.


That being said, now that this has been done, it has dawned upon me that this could be one of the reasons that SLI does not want college/high school students handling the propulsion and energetics of the rockets. It transfers the liability to the mentor and away from the university, by naming the mentor the legal owner of the rocket for the flight. The team that I mentor generally ships the motors direct to my house (thank goodness for a stay-at-home wife!), and I build the motors prior to the launch (or at the launch, where possible). I also don't travel with the students in the same vehicle for that reason... I've heard of mentors riding along with students, and vise versa, and don't want to be liable for three college students in my vehicle should anything happen.
 
If the school has deep enough pockets to hire a lawyer, you would think they had deep enough pockets to purchase a nice cargo van and a small enclosed trailer.
 
You might want to refer her to the NAR, TRA vs. BATFE lawsuit from 2000 in the Federal court in DC. Judge Walton closed the case in 2009 and vacated APCP from the low explosives list which meant it no longer require a magazine for storage. This was the final statement on the case https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...on-march-18-nar-tra-statement.1608/post-15614

That should satisfy the lawyer, at least on the storage part.
 
Handeman said:
You might want to refer her to the NAR, TRA vs. BATFE lawsuit from 2000 in the Federal court in DC. Judge Walton closed the case in 2009 and vacated APCP from the low explosives list which meant it no longer require a magazine for storage. This was the final statement on the case https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...on-march-18-nar-tra-statement.1608/post-15614

That should satisfy the lawyer, at least on the storage part.
Click to expand...
She may then..read about how other simple items require ATF permits.

Tony
 
Tommie D said:
If the school has deep enough pockets to hire a lawyer, you would think they had deep enough pockets to purchase a nice cargo van and a small enclosed trailer.
Click to expand...
*Every* school had better have deep enough pockets to have an attorney. If there is only money for the attorney or the cargo van but not both, the attorney is a much higher priority.
 
[soapbox]
In my experience if the risk management people say you do need it then yes, you do. The risk management people that I've run across have no interest in managing risk but sucking money out of their clients and justifying their existence. I often hear things like, "Well if 2 is very safe then 3 is more safer therefore use 3." Followed by a bunch of anecdotal evidence. To which I want to respond with, "Ok what data do you have to support this claim?" Knowing full well I might as well be talking to a wall or pushing rope uphill. Unfortunately this attitude has permeated into the NASA USLI program. Just add safety precautions with no empirical data to back it up and there is no reasoning with anyone even if it's completely impractical.

So yes, no matter how utterly stupid it is you're going to have to do it regardless of what papers or research you show them. Sorry if I seem a bit bitter about this but it is frustrating to no end. This crap is death by a thousand cuts and will eventually destroy some of these programs and as long as the risk management lawyers are making money they just don't care.
[/soapbox]
 

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