Loki J1001 availability?

[n3tjm]

Originally posted by Joel R
But isn't selling non certed loads a no no. thought one could not sell demo motors.

Yeah, it should be. Another motor manufacture (not naming names) did that all the time. It sucks going to a hobby shop, buy the reload, only to find you can't fly it at a nar launch and find its not certified. Not sure if they resolved that issue or not yet though

 

[Ryan S.]

Originally posted by Joel R
...selling non-certified motors is (IMO) STUPID...

An email received before BALLS '05:


AMW Dealers:

News: AMW to produce a limited run of Balls 2005 Special Project
Motors:

AMW will be making a limited run on some single use 6" motors for
various
Balls projects this year.
We have decided to make available for a one time purchase a
few "extra" of
these special motors:

6" OD, 84" long, 60K total NS, 5.8 second burn, P-10,000 [high ISP
custom
propellant]

6" OD, 48" long, 28K total NS, 8.1 second burn, O-3200 [Skidmark]

 

[agrippo]

This is really starting to get interesting but I don't think the road it's headed down is worth it. It's rocketry, fly 'em, have fun and don't worry about all that other stuff. Nobody worth a darn in this hobby is without sin and it's all good as long as you don't try to become a TAP.

Andrew

 

[Joel R]

Originally posted by Ryan S.
An email received before BALLS '05:


AMW Dealers:

News: AMW to produce a limited run of Balls 2005 Special Project
Motors:

AMW will be making a limited run on some single use 6" motors for
various
Balls projects this year.
We have decided to make available for a one time purchase a
few "extra" of
these special motors:

6" OD, 84" long, 60K total NS, 5.8 second burn, P-10,000 [high ISP
custom
propellant]

6" OD, 48" long, 28K total NS, 8.1 second burn, O-3200 [Skidmark]

Touche

 

[rrocket]

The post regarding the 6" motors, was made by a silent partner, who wasn't keeping up on the weather..
He was informed of his mistake, and policy changes.

AMW never followed thru with any of those motors.
Paul

 

[Austin]

I saw a couple of questions out there that were not answered I would like to address.

The first question asked by John was regarding aquiring non-certified motors; anyone can aquire non-certified HPR motors as long as they have the paperwork, such as a LEUP and if required, any other required local licenses or permits.

The second question from Joel was asking how can they be sold if they are not certified. A motor does not have to be certified to make it available for purchase. However, a good vendor will inform you of the motor's current status, or you can look it up yourself or ask prior to purchase.

Joel also asked if selling non-certed motors was a no no. The answer to this is no, it is not. As stated above, there are no problems selling non-certed motors, as long as you have the correct licenses or LEUP that may be required.

Also, while I am not fond of this next idea myself (and I will say why), there is nothing in place to prevent someone from legally flying these motors, nor is it a problem flying them, however there are catches. Anyone with a LEUP (or any other required documents) can legally purchase a non certified motor and anyone who has done so can also fly a non-certified motor, as long as they have applied for and received a FAA waiver and followed any other local regulations. This of course would be at their own field, at their own risk and under their own personal insurance.

Rockets do not have to be flown at NAR or TRA sanctioned events and this happens all the time with LPR models. Many times I have seen a small family or couple launch at one end of the same field we were flying; we usually invite them over and some accept while others care to go solo and that is fine. While it can be done with non-certed motors on your own field using your own LEUP, FAA Waiver and insurance, most people will not go through all the trouble and work it takes just to fly a couple non-certed motors without anyone else around to enjoy them. I personally am against it as I prefer the comeradary and added fun that comes with a group of fliers at a sanctioned launch, along with the added site insurance from the sanctioned organization and for these reasons, I have never attended a private launch, but it is possible.

Hopefully this answered many of the questions out there.

 

[Fore Check]

Thanks Carl.

Could someone fly a non-certed motor at a sanctioned TRA Research (EX) launch? Seems like you could.

 

[Johnnie]

Originally posted by Fore Check
Thanks Carl.

Could someone fly a non-certed motor at a sanctioned TRA Research (EX) launch? Seems like you could.

Thats not research, at least it would not be the fliers research, it would be the mfg's research.

Research launches are for individuals or groups that make and burn their own propellants/motors. Burning an uncertified motor implies no research value at all by the flier or motor.

Johnnie

 

[Austin]

Johnnie hit that one right on the spot...Research launches are limited to homemade propellant motor flights or manufacturer demo flights only. With the exception of these demo flights, no commercially made propellant flights are permitted, so it doesn't matter if the motors are certified or are not certified.

 

[jsdemar]

Originally posted by CTulanko
Johnnie hit that one right on the spot...Research launches are limited to homemade propellant motor flights or manufacturer demo flights only. With the exception of these demo flights, no commercially made propellant flights are permitted, so it doesn't matter if the motors are certified or are not certified.

This is not true anymore. Commercial motors have been allowed at TRA Research launches since Feb. 2006. They have to be currently certified or had been certified and lost certification. The only motors that are NOT allowed at TRA launches are commercial motors that have NEVER been certified.

The exception to this is when the never-certified commercial motor is being used by a group and the manufacturer is part of the group. In that case, an employee of the manufacturer must be there and handle the motor. And the cost to the rest the group is limited to the cost of materials without profit.

I'll leave the link to the TRA Research Safety Code again. It takes a little time to parse it all.

Manufacturer demos are specifically covered in the TRA Research rules. The manufacturer (or verified employee) has to be there.

-John

 

[jsdemar]

Originally posted by CTulanko
Also, while I am not fond of this next idea myself (and I will say why), there is nothing in place to prevent someone from legally flying these motors, nor is it a problem flying them, however there are catches. Anyone with a LEUP (or any other required documents) can legally purchase a non certified motor and anyone who has done so can also fly a non-certified motor, as long as they have applied for and received a FAA waiver and followed any other local regulations. This of course would be at their own field, at their own risk and under their own personal insurance.

This is a good point. Before I was a TRA member, I used to fly my own APCP motors on private land, self-insured, with an FAA waiver. I suspect there are others who have done the same thing, and it's a lot of fun.

However, once the product is considered commercial and "in commerce", other laws and regulations kick in, regardless of whether you fly on your own, at an independent launch, or at a TRA launch. I'm not sure if it's within the scope of this forum to go into the details.

-John

 

[dwright1542]

Originally posted by jsdemar
This is a good point. Before I was a TRA member, I used to fly my own APCP motors on private land, self-insured, with an FAA waiver. I suspect there are others who have done the same thing, and it's a lot of fun.

However, once the product is considered commercial and "in commerce", other laws and regulations kick in, regardless of whether you fly on your own, at an independent launch, or at a TRA launch. I'm not sure if it's within the scope of this forum to go into the details.

-John

Both of the clubs that are nearest Loki's home turf hold regular non-TRA sanctioned events that the J1001's are completely legal. I'm surprised Joel didn't know that. A plethora of Kosdon East motors were flown there.

 

[Joel R]

Haven't been north in two years, only non TRA launch I went to was NERRF 1 (Cant remember every motor that was flown)

 

[Ryan S.]

Just to clarify; I have nothing agianst either AMW or LOKI and have no problem with them selling motors to people, in fact I think they should be allowed to do this. I don't think either company is in the wrong, I just thought it was curious that there was such a stink about LOKI doing it when it seemed common practice. If I needed a J1001 or a P for Balls I would want to be able to get one.

 

[WillCarney]

Boy, I kind of stirred up that a little. I will make a few points here.

I have no problem flying non-certified motors especially from LOKI
even with my own personal insurance covering the flights. I have
the BATFE LEUP and my state's permit. All flights are covered by
proper waivers. I fly these under ex rules on safety and I think
there safer than AT Redlines.

Just because there not certified does not mean you can't buy or
fly them. I am willing to test any non-certified motor Jeff wants to
send my way free, or by purchase anytime.

Of course it will be great when Jeff can certify these motors, then
everyone can try them.

Have you tried the J270 Smokey Joe for the 740 case? Nice black
smoke and a good kick for black smoke motor. Or his red flame
motor? It has a good kick too. Just more non-certified motors
tried and tested and hopefully certified soon.

Keep watching LOKI for new products, you will like what's coming.

William

 

[DumasBro2]

Originally posted by Ryan S.
.......... or a P for Balls I would want to be able to get one.

Might want to get that L3 under your belt first. ---Woody 2004 (I miss that guy)



I think it appears that TRA picks and chooses where and when to apply the rules. Didn't Jerry get in trouble for this? My first thoughts were that at a private launch TRA would have no authority so who cares. Someone mentioned NFPA rules (if a state had adopted them as law) may. I have no idea, does anyone know? John care to comment? (You seem to be up on these things)

 

[Loki]

The legend of the J1001 seems to have grown over time. I only ever made 20 of these (back in 2005). About half went to Wildman because he kept nagging me for something new. This was a mistake I did not repeat.

A few J1001 and other motors in development have been sold and flown at the two non-TRA launches I attend regularly. This is simply a form a field testing, where the participants are fully aware of the circumstances, and I am present. I admit that because money changed hands, these would not qualify as "manufacturer's demonstrations" under TRA rules, but these are not TRA sanctioned launches.

Loki Research has not put any uncertified motors into general production and distribution, and will not. I am working on several new reloads right now and when certifications completed, all TRA members can enjoy them.

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

Originally posted by Loki
...I am working on several new reloads right now and when certifications completed, all TRA members can enjoy them.

Stop teasing us. We realize you enjoy watching us squirm, however it's just plain mean.




BTW, I watched one of the demo flights of the J1001 on a Shadow Composites kit at NERRF1

A good narrative of the flight would be:

"...3, 2,1 -> Ok that's not funny, where the heck did it go?!?"

I think the loaded motor weighed more than the rocket.

 

[Ryan S.]

Originally posted by DumasBro2
Might want to get that L3 under your belt first. ---Woody 2004 (I miss that guy)

What???

 

[jsdemar]

Originally posted by Loki
The legend of the J1001 seems to have grown over time. I only ever made 20 of these (back in 2005). About half went to Wildman because he kept nagging me for something new. This was a mistake I did not repeat.

Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. Good luck with your future products.

-John

 

[rstaff3]

Originally posted by Loki
The legend of the J1001 seems to have grown over time. I only ever made 20 of these (back in 2005). About half went to Wildman because he kept nagging me for something new. This was a mistake I did not repeat.

A few J1001 and other motors in development have been sold and flown at the two non-TRA launches I attend regularly. This is simply a form a field testing, where the participants are fully aware of the circumstances, and I am present. I admit that because money changed hands, these would not qualify as "manufacturer's demonstrations" under TRA rules, but these are not TRA sanctioned launches.

Loki Research has not put any uncertified motors into general production and distribution, and will not. I am working on several new reloads right now and when certifications completed, all TRA members can enjoy them.

Hey, as I remember the load you gave me was free...I did but the case so I could use it

 

[shockwaveriderz]

I cannot beleive some of the misinformation that is in this thread.

HPR rocket motors can only be sold or purchased if they are certfied. There is nothing in the NFPA fire codes that even decribes or defines what a uncertfied HPR motor is.

ALL model rocket and high power rocket motors that are sold or used or purchased in the USA require either NAR, or TRA or CAR certfication.

Yes while it is true that in the past uncertfied model or HPR rocket may have been "demo' ed, this doesn't open the floodgates for any manufacturer to manufacture a hpr motor and then sell it without it being certfied by one of the national recognized testing orgs, under the guise they are being "tested".

If you would like I can quote chapter and verse from the various NFPA codes which back up my claims above. On the other hand , if you can prove that the NFPA allows for the sale and use of uncertfied or noncertfied HPR motors without them being certfied, please quote from the applicable NFPA fire codes.

I understand that these motors ahve been flown in at least 2 states: NY and MD. Well MD just passed NFPA 1 which includes Chapter 65 which adopts NFPA 1122/25/27 all by reference; while NY is an IFC state that adopts NFPA 1122/25/27 by reference in chapter 33 Explosives and Fireworks.

from NFPA 1127:

Chapter 1 Administration

1.3 Application. This code shall apply to the design, construction,
limitation of propellant mass and power, and reliability
of high power rocket motors and motor components produced
commercially for sale or for use by a certified user for
education, recreation, and sporting competition.

Are these J1001's being" produced commercially for sale or use by a certfied user" Notice it says produced commercially for sale OR produced comemrcially for USE


Chapter 6 Prohibited Activities
6.1 Prohibited Acts. The following activities shall be prohibited
by this code:
(4) Selling, offering for sale, exposing for sale, or making
available a rocket motor or motor reloading kit that does
not comply with the requirements of this code(1127) and that
has not been certified in accordance with NFPA 1125,
Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power
Rocket Motors.

Selling of uncertfied high power rocket motors is a NO-No; offering for sale of uncertfied hpr motors is a NO-NO; exposing for sale of uncertfied HPR motors is a NO-NO; making available HPR motors that do not comply with NFPA 1127 and certfication per 1125 is a porhibited activity.

It doesn't matter that you may have a LEUP, a state permit(if required), and even a HPR certfication from either the NAR or TRA;
The simple fact is you can't sell or transfer for use HPR motors if they have NOT BEEN CERTIFIED to NFPA 1125 standards.


terry dean
nar 16158

 

[shockwaveriderz]

Originally posted by CTulanko
I saw a couple of questions out there that were not answered I would like to address.

The first question asked by John was regarding aquiring non-certified motors; anyone can aquire non-certified HPR motors as long as they have the paperwork, such as a LEUP and if required, any other required local licenses or permits.

This is not accurate Carl. Read NFPA 1127 Prohibited activities

The second question from Joel was asking how can they be sold if they are not certified. A motor does not have to be certified to make it available for purchase. However, a good vendor will inform you of the motor's current status, or you can look it up yourself or ask prior to purchase.

Again this is not accurate. ALL model rocket motors sold in this country in a NFPA or IFC state requires that the rocket motors be certfied.

Joel also asked if selling non-certed motors was a no no. The answer to this is no, it is not. As stated above, there are no problems selling non-certed motors, as long as you have the correct licenses or LEUP that may be required.

Again you are incorrect Carl. NFPA 1122/27 specifically in their prohibited activities sections require that ONLY certfied rocket motors be sold or made avilable for use.

Also, while I am not fond of this next idea myself (and I will say why), there is nothing in place to prevent someone from legally flying these motors, nor is it a problem flying them, however there are catches. Anyone with a LEUP (or any other required documents) can legally purchase a non certified motor and anyone who has done so can also fly a non-certified motor, as long as they have applied for and received a FAA waiver and followed any other local regulations. This of course would be at their own field, at their own risk and under their own personal insurance.

Rockets do not have to be flown at NAR or TRA sanctioned events and this happens all the time with LPR models. Many times I have seen a small family or couple launch at one end of the same field we were flying; we usually invite them over and some accept while others care to go solo and that is fine. While it can be done with non-certed motors on your own field using your own LEUP, FAA Waiver and insurance, most people will not go through all the trouble and work it takes just to fly a couple non-certed motors without anyone else around to enjoy them. I personally am against it as I prefer the comeradary and added fun that comes with a group of fliers at a sanctioned launch, along with the added site insurance from the sanctioned organization and for these reasons, I have never attended a private launch, but it is possible.

Hopefully this answered many of the questions out there.

Its a SIMPLER AND PLAIN FACT: It is against NFPA 1122/1127 to purchase or sell uncertfied rocket motors in any NFPA or IFC state , which numbers 49 as we speak: except for CA which has their own permiting regulations.

terry dean
nar 16158

 

[als57]

Originally posted by jrogers







Too many??

Not enough!

Al

 

[shockwaveriderz]

Originally posted by THarrison
Is it? I seem to recall a lot of uncertified Kosdon East Skidmark and Green Gorilla loads being flown back in the day. It seems to me that Loki might just be following a precedent set by Kosdon East (AMW).

using "bad behavior" as an example to justify more bad behavior is not correct.




terry dean
nar 16158

 

[Ryan S.]

Originally posted by shockwaveriderz
using "bad behavior" as an example to justify more bad behavior is not correct.




terry dean
nar 16158

While this is of course a valid point, I think you missed the point that Todd was making: AMW is complaining about this bad behavior when they themselves are guilty of the same behavior.

 

[shockwaveriderz]

Chapter 7 Commercial Motor Manufacturers 7.1 General 7.1.1 A person is determined to be a Commercial Motor Manufacturer if he meets the definition of a
Tripoli Research Safety Code
February 2006
5 of 8
Commercial Motor Manufacturer as set forth in this code. 7.2 Commercial Motor Manufacturers at Tripoli Research Launches 7.2.1 Commercial Motor Manufacturers are welcomed at Tripoli Research Launches provided they follow all the provisions of this code. 7.3 Commercial Motor Manufacturer Demonstrations 7.3.1 Commercial Motor Manufacturers shall use only motors that are not yet commercially available for the purpose of research and development at Tripoli Research Launches. 7.3.2 Commercial Motor Manufacturers shall launch their own motor(s) either in their own rocket(s) or in a designated representative’s rocket(s) only if the designated representative is physically present. 7.3.3 A Commercial Motor Manufacturer's representative that is not actually on the company payroll does not meet the requirement of 7.3.2. 7.3.3.1 The LD or RSO may require proof (pay check stub, etc.) that a person is a Commercial Motor Manufacturer's paid representative before allowing the representative to demonstrate any product at a Tripoli Research Launch.

according to the above, as long as Will et al were on the payroll of LOKI when they were testing these motors at a TRA RESEARCH launch, everything is okay.

I will assume that is the case.

terry dean
nar 16158

 

[rstaff3]

I for one think this thread has run its course. Jeff has responded which should answer the original question. I think some important points have been made along the way, but those should stand on their own without additional embellishment.