Exempt Rocket motors Defined

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uggh, another lengthy topic that comes down to a certain person ranting about TRA, the TRA BOD and rules, both TRA and those made by the federal government. We're getting nowhere. This just gives the whole hobby a black eye. Can we lock this one, too?
 
Steve Shannon said:
Scott can come to BALLS or any other Tripoli launch that allows Research motor and fly his own non-certified motors all day long.
Click to expand...
Yea, I can just spend a week or two extra and a few extra thousand dollars in gas and expenses I don't have just to go to BALLS to flight test a motor. What a GRAND idea. Or I can legally sell it to an exempt entity, they can provide it as part of their class curriculum, fly it and I still get most all the useful information I need without going DIRECTLY into the hole and we both get what we need.

So now to do these flights myself, I need to travel nearly 3,900 miles round trip to get it done.
I can no longer make the 12hr, 700 mile round trip to KS because I've been arbitrarily banned by the TRA president and his merry band of cronies from Argonia, the field I religiously traveled to every year for what, 8 years in a row to support, about the only launch I ever brought and gave free raffle prizes of 38 and 54mm reloads and hardware, given to all the setup and tear down teams each and every year. I've been given no recourse for these actions by the local club and none but dismissed motions by the national club, because the other club is private, not at ALL connected to the national club they say. BS

So what the hell good does my national membership do for me without having a local membership in each and every other local club I might want to travel to, JUST so they can't arbitrarily screw me without a say? Apparently it doesn't do me any good other than giving me some rights not to get kicked out of the National club as well.

Supporting the local club the way I had been was obviously not good enough fr them, and neither is my support of the entire freaking national TRA organization with my business, my products and life for the past 10 & 1/2 years to get it overturned.
Thanks for nothing.
 
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sharkbait said:
Dude……..
Demonstration motors are un-certified motors that the manufacturer intends to bring to TMT for certification and made available for sale to the certified membership, being able to fly them at a TRA launch gives the manufacturer a chance to show the motor in action to the flyers and get some interest levels and feedback before going to certification. Insurance carriers can understand and relate to that. A demonstration motor is not a run around for manufacturers to make one off custom motors to sell with no intentions of ever getting certified for sale to the certified public members.
Click to expand...
WORD FOR WORD above, this is EXACTYLY WHAT I AM DOING. I'm just not doing it in the "few weeks" time table I'm being given here.

I will say it again, these demo motors that have been sold and used are under development and I do plan on certifying them when the testing is complete and the product is ready for certification. That is what the code book says. That is what I am doing. Before I can do that, hey need to be tested, tested, tested, tested, tested, tested, tested, tested, tested, tested, tested, tested, and then maybe tested some more if needed. But now Steve needs to go rewiew the language of a demo motor to restrict them even more.

Each and every time there has been a change and or improvement in the motors design in one or more areas and the flight tests of this "new motor technology" as stated in 6.1(5)"experimenting with high power rocket motors, motor reloading kits, or pyrotechnic modules that have not been certified in accordance with NFPA1125, Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors, other than for the purpose of evaluation of new high power rocket motor technology by a recognized national user organization or an authority having jurisdiction"

Not for the purpose of creation, for, the national org, but for the evaluation of, by a national user org.


Show me an AHJ who is doing research activities or would even have a purpose to.

This testing and experimentation has been conducted thru the national user organization, exactly what the code book says.
However, myself and others who are exempted from 1127 have been robbed of this provision in 1127 and it's been given to those who NEVER plan on certifying ANYTHING if ever even going into business. I know the EXer's don't want to hear this, but these are the words of the written legal code book that have precedent over all other private club codes where NFPA is in effect.

The amount of work needed to be done to in essence, again copy RCS, my MUCH FREAKING LARGER competitor, would be an enormous amount of work, money and time, well above and beyond what I have available to me beyond what I am asking here. Have you seen the copywrite on our current website? It's 17yrs old and I hardly have time to keep it updated and fresh looking, let alone needing to creating an entirely new company just to skirt the TRA rules with this workaround loophole that's been created by an incredibly more resourceful company. Please forgive me if I say this idea is asinine.
 
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Loki Research said:
Yea, I can just spend a week or two extra and a few extra thousand dollars in gas and expenses I don't have just to go to BALLS to flight test a motor. What a GRAND idea. Or I can legally sell it to an exempt entity, they can provide it as part of their class curriculum, fly it and I still get most all the useful information I need without going DIRECTLY into the whole and we both get what we need.

So now to do these flights myself, I need to travel nearly 3,900 miles round trip to get it done.
I can no longer make the 12hr, 700 mile round trip to KS because I've been arbitrarily banned by the TRA president and his merry band of cronies from Argonia, the field I religiously traveled to every year for what, 8 years in a row to support, about the only launch I ever brought and gave free raffle prizes of 38 and 54mm reloads and hardware, given to all the setup and tear down teams each and every year. I've been given no recourse for these actions by the local club and none but dismised motions by the national club, because the other club is private, not at ALL connected to the national club they say. BS

So what the hell good does my national membership do for me without having a local membership in each and every other local club I might want to travel to, JUST so they can't arbitrarily screw me without a say? Apparently it doesn't do me any good other than giving me some rights not to get kicked out of the National club as well.

Supporting the local club the way I had been was obviously not good enough fr them, and neither is my support of the entire freaking national TRA organization with my business, my products and life for the past 10 & 1/2 years to get it overturned.
Thanks for nothing.
Click to expand...
Not to stir the pot any more than it is, why were you banned from KS? Something doesn't smell right.
 
Somewhere in here, pages ago. Someone made the comment (I cannot recall who) that driving up costs was the fact that surplus AP was evaporating.

If you have built a business and a pricing structure on the cost of surplus materials, KM surplus or even barrels/totes/bunkers of 35+ year old PepCon surplus. Is simply doing business incorrectly. Surplus runs out, and then you are left stuck and you leave your customer base with a price increase that is sudden and shocking.

If you have a business. You should have vendors supplying new production material and understand pricing in the near term and the long term, as well as have blanket orders in place. If you don't have the buying power, then you group up with other manufactures as a consortium (or join a consortium) to begin purchasing futures in the materials, if they even exist. At least begin the dialog with the manufacturers. If you are not dealing with a manufacturer or a distributor directly, your supply chain is in jeopardy from the onset.
 
@Loki Research we gave you a fully compliant path to work with universities that will likely be more profitable than your persistent request. It is also more in the spirit of education too. Its up to you now to make 2023 a great year.
 
🍎 this here is apple
🍊this here is an orange
Study these in depth and see if you can fully and completely comprehend the difference between the two

After you have assured yourself that you fully grasp this concept, apply it to the following:

1127 & 1125
NFPA & TRA
Individual & Manufacturer
Demonstration & Exempt

Good Luck & Happy New Year
 
If Loki Research is looking to the universities as a prime market for selling motors,
then why not look at the Commercial-Off-The-Shelf (COTS) motor challenges the
university teams face every year in the competitions.

Spaceport Cup is an example. Approximately 75%, of 150+ teams, use COTS
motors, and those motors are pretty much geared for the everyday rocketeer.
These teams have the challenge of trying to work with motors that are not
necessarily designed for a competition that has specific altitude & payload
requirements. The flip side is this is an engineering competition so motor
selection is effectively a part of the competition.

Every year though I see teams that have motor performance challenges that
cannot effectively be overcome with motors from AeroTech or Cesaroni.
We could simply say the team did an inadequate job of the design. But
that is not always the case.

I don’t think I have come across a Loki motor in the competition. So why
is that? But then I have only been involved with a handful of the teams
over a few short years.

I would think the information is there, from all the years the competition has
been around, to develop a group of COTS motor that is better geared for such
a competition. This is a niche that may better suit Loki’s design strengths than
the other motor manufacturers.

The comment can be made that this development will take time and money,
which may be in short supply. But to side step or shelve assorted options that
may have merit is not a good business plan for any business. I have 20+ years
of self-employment and know the importance of advice from others.

Those of us that have small businesses can be our own worst enemies at times.

There is plenty of good advice in this multi page thread. And from people that see
possibilities for Loki Research.
 
QFactor said:
Spaceport Cup is an example. Approximately 75%, of 150+ teams, use COTS
motors, and those motors are pretty much geared for the everyday rocketeer.
These teams have the challenge of trying to work with motors that are not
necessarily designed for a competition that has specific altitude & payload
requirements. The flip side is this is an engineering competition so motor
selection is effectively a part of the competition.
Click to expand...
This would be great, if it were allowed, but because the rules once again have been wrote so that only Certified commercial motors are considered or allowed to be a Commercial COTS motor, we can (correction) not do this. We did that a few times before they "clarified" the rules on what they allow as a COTS motors.
Thanks for the idea though.

Steve Shannon said:
But I’m going to go do something else.

Anything else.
Click to expand...
Anything else but work to help a small motor manf/vendor.
Got it. Understood.

TRA will do what it wants for TRA leadership, even if their inaction threatens the motor supply to their members, because no one but me apparently wants to remove or clarify 10.7.2. or 10.7.3, or work to do anything else that might help a small manf/vendor.
Understood.

They will allow any national club member to break the clubs own written rules or Federal FAA law without consequence, as long as they do it anywhere else besides a TRA sanctioned launch event.
Understood.

TRA will insure only those motors it wishes to have insured.
Understood.

TRA will not work to clarify and of the insurance requirements for demonstration motors.
Understood.

Thank you all (separately) for your time, patience, ideas, positive input and lastly..... resistance to change.
 
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Loki Research said:
Yea, I can just spend a week or two extra and a few extra thousand dollars in gas and expenses I don't have just to go to BALLS to flight test a motor. What a GRAND idea.
So now to do these flights myself, I need to travel nearly 3,900 miles round trip to get it done.
Click to expand...
Waaaaaaah! If I want to go there, it's a 5,660 mile trip to Gerlach. You won't get any sympathy from me. That's the price you have to pay to play.

Loki Research said:
I can no longer make the 12hr, 700 mile round trip to KS because I've been arbitrarily banned by the TRA president and his merry band of cronies from Argonia, the field I religiously traveled to every year for what, 8 years in a row to support, about the only launch I ever brought and gave free raffle prizes of 38 and 54mm reloads and hardware, given to all the setup and tear down teams each and every year. I've been given no recourse for these actions by the local club and none but dismised motions by the national club, because the other club is private, not at ALL connected to the national club they say. BS
Click to expand...
Guess you shouldn't have gotten yourself banned. Life's all about behaviors and consequences. Grow up!

Loki Research said:
So what the hell good does my national membership do for me without having a local membership in each and every other local club I might want to travel to, JUST so they can't arbitrarily screw me without a say? Apparently it doesn't do me any good other than giving me some rights not to get kicked out of the National club as well.
Click to expand...
Why would TRA legislate what a local club does if it's more restrictive then their rules? That doesn't happen in our country. Learn how to play by the rules instead of whining about them like a little kid.

Loki Research said:
Supporting the local club the way I had been was obviously not good enough fr them, and neither is my support of the entire freaking national TRA organization with my business, my products and life for the past 10 & 1/2 years to get it overturned.
Thanks for nothing.
Click to expand...
It's obvious to everyone you're very unhappy in your chosen line of work. Life's too short to be unhappy. Perhaps you should consider another line of work.

/flame off/
 
Loki Research said:
This would be great, if it were allowed, but because the rules once again have been wrote so that only Certified commercial motors are considered or allowed to be a Commercial COTS motor. We did that a few times before they "clarified" the rules on what they allow as a COTS motors.
Thanks for the idea though.


Anything else but work to help a small motor manf/vendor.
Got it. Understood.

TRA will do what it wants for TRA leadership, even if their inaction threatens the motor supply to their members, because no one but me apparently wants to remove or clarify 10.7.2. or 10.7.3, or work to do anything else that might help a small manf/vendor.
Understood.

They will allow any national club member to break the clubs own written rules or Federal FAA law without consequence, as long as they do it anywhere else besides a TRA sanctioned launch event.
Understood.

TRA will insure only those motors it wishes to have insured.
Understood.

TRA will not work to clarify and of the insurance requirements for demonstration motors.
Understood.

Thank you all (separately) for your time, patience, ideas, positive input and lastly..... resistance to change.
Click to expand...

I understand the certified part. It's been brought up a hundred times. We all get that.

Yes, you would have to offer certified motors.

But why walk away from a potential niche market just because of the certification process?
 
StreuB1 said:
If you have built a business and a pricing structure on the cost of surplus materials, KM surplus or even barrels/totes/bunkers of 35+ year old PepCon surplus. Is simply doing business incorrectly. Surplus runs out, and then you are left stuck and you leave your customer base with a price increase that is sudden and shocking.
Click to expand...
We had been working with the EXACT SAME SUPPLY of 200 AP that AT was before it ran out, from the exact same manf, thru the exact same supplier, with the express stipulation (signed) that the material only be used in hobby rocketry and not government work. So basically you said both AT and Loki were doing business incorrectly.
 
Loki Research said:
This would be great, if it were allowed, but because the rules once again have been wrote so that only Certified commercial motors are considered or allowed to be a Commercial COTS motor, we can (correction) not do this. We did that a few times before they "clarified" the rules on what they allow as a COTS motors.
Thanks for the idea though.


Anything else but work to help a small motor manf/vendor.
Got it. Understood.

TRA will do what it wants for TRA leadership, even if their inaction threatens the motor supply to their members, because no one but me apparently wants to remove or clarify 10.7.2. or 10.7.3, or work to do anything else that might help a small manf/vendor.
Understood.

They will allow any national club member to break the clubs own written rules or Federal FAA law without consequence, as long as they do it anywhere else besides a TRA sanctioned launch event.
Understood.

TRA will insure only those motors it wishes to have insured.
Understood.

TRA will not work to clarify and of the insurance requirements for demonstration motors.
Understood.

Thank you all (separately) for your time, patience, ideas, positive input and lastly..... resistance to change.
Click to expand...
Sum bitch, it seems like the whole world, not just TRA BOD is out to screw you over. Not sure how SLI or IREC is screwing Loki, (COTS) is pretty self explanatory. It’s just another example though of preferring to bitch and whine instead of trying to advance into a real solution for your self imposed woes
 
Loki Research said:
We had been working with the EXACT SAME SUPPLY of 200 AP that AT was before it ran out, from the exact same manf, thru the exact same supplier, with the express stipulation (signed) that the material only be used in hobby rocketry and not government work. So basically you said both AT and Loki were doing business incorrectly.
Click to expand...
AT hasn't created a thread lamenting the woes of keeping the lights on, so no, he didn't suggest they were doing business incorrectly.
 
QFactor said:
IREC and TARC do not control the motor manufacturer selection for teams. That's a team's choice.
Click to expand...
The teams get to choose from only those motors which are aloud which are useful in that specific competition.
When contest rules are geared towards things
-with motor limits like 75mm full L motors (which we have never had and AT/CTI always have had for 15 years or more)
-when they are geared towards needing the largest N & O motor you can get (IREC cubsat payload in a 6" rocket to 10k' or 30k') (a 76/8000 is barely enough for the 10k')
-when they specify that a COST motor really means a certified motor,
-when TARC requires a minimum of something like several hundred of the same motor produced each year in order for that motor to be used in the competition, (for fairness of course)
then no, most of these competitions are not geared toward all of the 3 manfs but only 2.

Almost all of these competitions require some form of creation of a new product for Loki to get a leg in the game and have a chance at more sales.
This is why you hardly never see Loki Research in these competitions.

I have chosen the full N baby O option of these to work on.
 
CalebJ said:
AT hasn't created a thread lamenting the woes of keeping the lights on, so no, he didn't suggest they were doing business incorrectly.
Click to expand...
He said relying on surplus AP, which they had done the same, so yes, by default it included AT. They also have a brand new building going up because they have the lions share of a market. A market with controlling leaders who have driven out people like Scott Dixon, Paul Robinson and Anthony Cesaroni. Yes, Paul and AC. Paul wanted to get out of the TRA BS and peeing matches the same as Scott Dixon. Anthony now has practically nothing to do with HPR for the same reasons other than he's the owner, the same reasons Paul told him he wanted to sell. Anthony has people to run CTI and handle all the politics and BS for him. He wants nothing to do with it any more.

Pleeeease forgive me for lamenting the woes of this small struggling business. I should shut my trap if things get really bad and not say a peep. Then the next thing you might see me say is, "sorry, the company has gone out of business". Oh my the outrage of "why didn't we know he was struggling" that would ensue. I've been struggling from the start and continue to because unknown to me, I purchased not only Loki Research the bad reputation of Jeff, I'm sorry, "it's Dr. Taylor". I wasn't aware he had a bad wrap. There have been people crapping on me ever since because of his bonehead moves that I was never a part of. It was long before my time.

We are doing very good right now despite the turmoil in the past few years, so we aren't there yet, but we have always struggled. And in case you haven't turned on the news lately and didn't know things like 80% of ALL US dollars in existence have been printed in just the past 2 years and you may not be able to see and feel its full effects yet, but if you were in my shes and your livelihood was at stake, you might freak out a bit too.

So forgive me for freaking out at things because zinc tripled in cost, 200AP quadrupled in cost, 90AP has doubled in cost, phenolic liners have more than double in cost, graphite nozzles have more than doubled in cost, a dozen eggs and a gallon of gas has more than doubled in cost etc. etc., and that's just right off the top of my head. I'm just a bit concerned about what has yet to come, and I'm just trying to get ahead of it by making some changes.
 
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That's always the answer, get someone to lock it down. And people wonder why they rarely see me, here or anywhere....
 
So I can clearly see that abusive name calling and profanity is not acceptable here, but ridicule of a manufacturer is perfectly acceptable behavior to the moderators. Just keep it up for all to see.

You flamers really think I'm the only one here making a fool of himself? Okay, We'll just wait and see about that.
 
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