An order from Red Arrow Hobbies

[chadrog]

I don't see a problem with a older guy working out of his shop. Dave has supplied rocketry items to the Hobby for years. I think he maybe the longest supplier of HP products in business today. Problems come up for all of us from time to time. Lets face it guys the rocketry hobby has a very small customer base. We should all feel very happy to have the small shops selling rocketry items. Anyone can build a fancy web site to make them look bigger than they really are.

No problem with that at all Gary!:wink:

 

[Buckeye]

I don't need it, I appreciate it. I plan ahead.

You missed the point, completely.

 

[Buckeye]

If you want to pay more for fluff, by all means do so. I don't need the fluff, I'd rather get the most for my money - Red Arrow offers that. About two weeks ago I ordered an M2100 and a K1499 from Dave, had it in four days. The price was over $106.00 less than the nearest competition, and you can add the HAZ charges to that savings as well because Dave covers them over $150.00. Buy the fluff, I'm happy to take the cheaper motors.

Accurate product descriptions, up to date inventory status, order confirmation, good customer support, prompt delivery - I consider that price of entry, not fluff.

Anyway, congrats on your successful purchase. Enjoy your motors.

 

[chadrog]

You missed the point, completely.

Please dumb it down for me then, if you may spare some of your valuable time... Have you ever dealt with Red Arrow hobbies?

 

[luke strawwalker]

I don't see a problem with a older guy working out of his shop. Dave has supplied rocketry items to the Hobby for years. I think he maybe the longest supplier of HP products in business today. Problems come up for all of us from time to time. Lets face it guys the rocketry hobby has a very small customer base. We should all feel very happy to have the small shops selling rocketry items. Anyone can build a fancy web site to make them look bigger than they really are.

I've physically been in BOTH of their stores... in terms of physical size, RAH is actually bigger than Apogee... especially the "sales floor"... RAH's building is the size of a small home, Apogee is in an industrial park, most of RAH's floor space is dedicated to aisles and display racks of various hobby materials (including a large home-brew/microbrew supplies selection) and kits displayed on the walls, etc. Most of Apogee's "floor space" is dedicated to the mail order/web order warehouse/shipping area in the back, with just the front lobby between offices serving as a display/sales area. I got the distinct impression when I visited that RAH is a small family-run business on a limited budget, given that it was in the mid-high 90's in their SW Michigan store the day I visited a few years back and the AC was off/nonexistent, and the doors were propped open to keep the building from being completely stifling. The displays and machinery are not new by any stretch of the imagination, but they're functional. Organization of everything could be a little better... boxes everywhere-- stuff coming in and going out... but it is what it is. I bought a few kits and talked with Dave-- nice guy, kinda quiet. He showed me the new masters for the Gemini capsule of the (then) recently purchased Sheri's Hot Rockets Gemini, we discussed that situation, he showed me a capsule with no detailing on one side, pulled from one of the worn-out molds she had been using to produce kits, and then the new master he was having built to produce the new GT kits. He also told me that the lack of the aluminum rocket nozzle retainers were the biggest holdup on the kit-- finding a machinist to produce new ones was proving troublesome.

When I visited Apogee a few years ago, I bought a few things and took the nickel tour... talked with TVM a bit about the (then) new kit he was coming out with, the LexxJet, which was sitting on his desk.

The assertions are correct-- Dave's an older guy, looked more like he belonged on "Duck Dynasty" with the beard, shorts, and flip flops, doing orders on an older computer... OTOH, Tim is a much younger guy, his offices and warehouse was immaculate, his computers and systems looked to be of the latest variety. Of course Tim's prices also largely reflect that as well...

SO, if low price is your number one concern, and you don't mind waiting or getting slow service or little/no communication, (Dave was constantly on the computer, filling orders, while I was there except for a short visit about the SHR stuff he was doing) then RAH is the vendor for you.

IF on the other hand you want fast customer service and better communication, and being buttered up by fancy websites, and don't mind paying more for the product, (and getting snarky comments from Tim if you have problems, like I did with Rocksim) then Apogee is a great choice.

Both have their purpose and their "niche"... and both have their benefits (and drawbacks). Which you choose is a matter of personal preference and priorities...

Later! OL JR

 

[chadrog]

I've physically been in BOTH of their stores... in terms of physical size, RAH is actually bigger than Apogee... especially the "sales floor"... RAH's building is the size of a small home, Apogee is in an industrial park, most of RAH's floor space is dedicated to aisles and display racks of various hobby materials (including a large home-brew/microbrew supplies selection) and kits displayed on the walls, etc. Most of Apogee's "floor space" is dedicated to the mail order/web order warehouse/shipping area in the back, with just the front lobby between offices serving as a display/sales area. I got the distinct impression when I visited that RAH is a small family-run business on a limited budget, given that it was in the mid-high 90's in their SW Michigan store the day I visited a few years back and the AC was off/nonexistent, and the doors were propped open to keep the building from being completely stifling. The displays and machinery are not new by any stretch of the imagination, but they're functional. Organization of everything could be a little better... boxes everywhere-- stuff coming in and going out... but it is what it is. I bought a few kits and talked with Dave-- nice guy, kinda quiet. He showed me the new masters for the Gemini capsule of the (then) recently purchased Sheri's Hot Rockets Gemini, we discussed that situation, he showed me a capsule with no detailing on one side, pulled from one of the worn-out molds she had been using to produce kits, and then the new master he was having built to produce the new GT kits. He also told me that the lack of the aluminum rocket nozzle retainers were the biggest holdup on the kit-- finding a machinist to produce new ones was proving troublesome.

When I visited Apogee a few years ago, I bought a few things and took the nickel tour... talked with TVM a bit about the (then) new kit he was coming out with, the LexxJet, which was sitting on his desk.

The assertions are correct-- Dave's an older guy, looked more like he belonged on "Duck Dynasty" with the beard, shorts, and flip flops, doing orders on an older computer... OTOH, Tim is a much younger guy, his offices and warehouse was immaculate, his computers and systems looked to be of the latest variety. Of course Tim's prices also largely reflect that as well...

SO, if low price is your number one concern, and you don't mind waiting or getting slow service or little/no communication, (Dave was constantly on the computer, filling orders, while I was there except for a short visit about the SHR stuff he was doing) then RAH is the vendor for you.

IF on the other hand you want fast customer service and better communication, and being buttered up by fancy websites, and don't mind paying more for the product, (and getting snarky comments from Tim if you have problems, like I did with Rocksim) then Apogee is a great choice.

Both have their purpose and their "niche"... and both have their benefits (and drawbacks). Which you choose is a matter of personal preference and priorities...

Later! OL JR

I've never been to either, but that's exactly how I've imagined them!

 

[iqsy59]

Right. My time has a price tag, too.

Let's see:

Apogee: Thriving company, expanding product line, employs several people, nary a bad word about customer service.

Red Arrow: One older guy working out of his shop, can't fulfill orders, frequent complaints.

Now, who "needs" the sale?

I have placed orders with just about every vendor who deals in rocketry, including RAH and Apogee. But there is only ONE that I will never place another order with after my initial experience, and that isn't RAH. So maybe a few bad words...

Cheers,
Michael

 

[slipperyfrog]

Sure am going to miss Semroc, they set a standard second to none.

Semroc owners have been through the ringer far too much for one family. God Bless and lift them up. I miss their products already.

That being said I wonder if they had charged slightly more for their product/service if they would have been in a position to still be with us. Every time I went to their site I felt a small pinch that what they provided was being under valued on the price tags.

Too many small companies try to do too much on too little. Eventually it catches up to them over promising and under delivering. I haven't ordered from Red Arrow yet but seeing comments of product being advertised & not actually existing in his inventory makes me wary to order.

 

[JeromeK99]

I understand the OP's discomfort over the situation.. but come on... if you see a 1996 era website, do you really expect top of the line service?? Really??

I ordered from Red Arrow last fall... I want a couple more AT 24/40 RMS cases... after looking around, RA had the best prices by far! So I went a head and ordered 2 and a good handful of LPR kits he had a really good price on as well to spread out the shipping costs. My order arrived pretty quick, but alas, no RMS cases... the packing list said they were back-ordered. Doh! The only reason I ordered the LPR kits was to lower the overall shipping per item... So I emailed them... 2 days go by.. nothing.. so I called... no answer... called the next day... no answer.. I was a bit concerned, but understood they were a small business.. finally got an answer on the phone. I asked when they would ship and was told the next week. Sure enough, I got my cases about 10 days later. No extra shipping charge.

Now was I upset? No... Seeing the website set my expectations low. I was after the low low prices. Sure enough.. I got my low prices!

Will I order from them again? You betcha! :wink:

As said earlier.. if you want high quality service and need something A.S.A.P., order from Apogee! I do!

Bottom line is don't be cheap and then complain you didn't get good service... you get what you paid for. If the vendor looses you as a customer, then its probably the best for both of you.

RA didn't actually do anything wrong.. the OP just didn't get the service expected. The OP also got a refund.... I don't see the harm or foul here.... :2:


Jerome

 

[hball55]

I agree, i have ordered from Red Arrow Hobbies and found that the item was backordered and wasn't notified. The price was right though. I didn't get mad or frustrated, luckily, because I realized that I had been spoiled by Amazon.com Prime Membership where you usually get your item in two days. Everybody doesn't have the cash flow Amazon has and can't stock items for immediate shipment. Understand that with Red Arrow Hobbies, don't be in a hurry or if you are in a big hurry, go somewhere else. But if you want to save and aren't in a hurry, remember Red Arrow Hobbies.

Look, it might be disconcerting at first, but once you know the process, roll with it. The service is not that bad and the savings are there.

Again the "Their" is a he. One man operation, older gentleman, not the most computer savy. In fact, I'm surprised he has a website.

I can tell you with certainty that he does care.

Perhaps some of the more computer savy out there could give him some pointers, or perhaps send a link to someone who can. As one person mentioned, complaining doesn't fix anything. He needs to be called on it.

The last thing we need to be doing as a community is promoting the demise of another vendor.

 

[georgegassaway]

I will say this up front. I have liked Red Arrow, and made orders years before the one last summer. And I may still make an order….. when the savings are worth the time it takes to arrive.....now that I know I can't expect them to let me know if an order will be delayed, as I expect from any mail order company to do. But I won't order any other stuff as I did before, because of the practice of not letting customers know when their orders will be delayed, and why. I can take that business to other places that do have a much better approach to informing customers (and frankly, better prices on some of the other things).

You know, it's not an issue with how modern a website is.
A rocket dealer could have Bill Gates as their webmaster. And an inventory system given to them for free by Amazon, with a prototype Amazon Inventory robot to check the actual inventory.... and still it would mean nothing if the dealer isn't going to communicate with the customer when their order will not be shipped for weeks or months.

This has NOTHING to do with how big the business is. It has EVERYTHING to do with customer service in the form of letting the customer know if their order is not going to be shipped for awhile, and why. The quality and/or capability of the website has nothing to do with that. It is at the feet of the individual running the company.

I do not see at the top of the RAH web page, a disclaimer in big red text saying "WARNING: If we do not have everything in stock, we will NOT ship your order until it all is in stock. This process could take months. If you do not like that, it is YOUR responsibility to contact us to find out more, or go take your ****ing order elsewhere, we don't care".

Now, I have been seeing people in this thread pretty much acting like a RAH spokesperson, expressing pretty much that very attitude in that last sentence.

But you know what, it's not only not right, it's not legal. But I'll get to that later.

So, HOW are the unsuspecting customers supposed to know that if not everything they ordered is in stock, their order is going to be secretly sat on for weeks/months? They usually do not find out until the damage is done, and then many of them won't order again.

And there are plenty of one-person or small family type businesses that DO keep their customers informed of things like this. Semroc was the best at it, but they are (were) not unique, many more of the small dealers do keep their customers informed of delays than the ones who do not. It is logical to assume that if you are running a business, you do not want to p*ss off customers, with an approach that continually keeps creating more p*ssed off customers, who mostly become ex-customers.

OK, before sending this, I did some searching. On the Red Arrow site, they say this about time for order delivery:

"Some model rocket engines, igniters and reloadable motors can be shipped by snail mail ground. Other rocket engines and reloads must have a Hazmat fee, but will ship faster. Please allow 1-2 weeks for delivery by mail or 2 - 5 days with a hazmat fee. Rocket engines, igniters or model rocket starter sets containing model rocket engines or igniters can not be shipped outside the USA. All other items on your order will ship in the same box unless you place two seperate orders."

Nothing there about waiting many weeks, perhaps months. Nothing there about if there is a delay, they have no obligation to let you know this. But they indeed are under obligation to do that or else fill the order within the delivery times they state. And I do not mean a common sense obligation. Or a good-for-business obligation. I mean a legally binding REQUIREMENT under law!

Now, let's go to the FTC:

https://www.business.ftc.gov/docume...ide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Key part of it which says this:

"What is the Mail or Telephone Order Rule?
The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- you must, without being asked, promptly refund all the money the customer paid you for the unshipped merchandise."

So, since RAH says that orders can take 1-2 weeks, or 2-5 days with a hazmat fee, then they HAVE to abide by that 1-2 weeks or 2-5 days that they themselves have stated. Or else contact the customer as soon as they know they can't do it in the time stated. The 30 days is a default if a company does not state a delivery time.

The order I made had a HAZMAT FEE so that order should not have taken more than 5 days according to their website!

The FTC does not care if a company is run by one person or not. Or how modern their website is, or not. If you are in business doing mail order, you have to comply with the law. Period. No excuses.

It is the persistent excuses others have made, that led to looking up what the law has to say about a mail order company taking however long they wanted to to fill an order, without informing the customer. I knew that wasn't right, just beyond fairness, it didn't seem legal. And it is NOT legal.

I'll warn the excusemakers, that if you persist in the excuse-making, someone might go to the FTC about this. Already your excuse-making has caused enough attention to this problem to expose that it is not a rare thing (you have admitted your own orders have taken a long time) and now enough research into this to find out that indeed it is flatly illegal. Want to double down with more excuse-making, with a business you do not own?

- George Gassaway

 

[hball55]

George, take a chill pill . . . please, before you blow a gasket. Where do you get off threatening people who express their opinion. Where is this illegal . . . ever hear of Freedom of Speech? Maybe not.

 

[JeromeK99]

Technically... it takes 1-2 weeks for "delivery"... didn't say when it would actually ship... so as long as they don't violate the 30-day rule... :y:

lol...

So let's all pick on a long time rocket vendor that gives us the best prices around... sounds productive!


:surprised:

 

[wclune]

Well I have bought rockets from a lot of vendors over the years some of those have awful but my dealings with red arrow have always been good. Communication of issues should be a top priority. Hopefully they improve on whatever issues that are having. I have an Christmas gift order still open from Another vendor, luckily for him my kids are understanding (he is the only guy I know with certain kosdon stuff)

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Rocketry Forum mobile app

 

[mpitfield]

George, take a chill pill . . . please, before you blow a gasket. Where do you get off threatening people who express their opinion. Where is this illegal . . . ever hear of Freedom of Speech? Maybe not.

What hball55 said...George I get that you are frustrated however I believe your response is out of line and if you step back for a bit you will also agree. We just have differing opinions that is all.

 

[Zeroignite]

What George said seems like a simple statement of fact to me... I presume that anyone who wants to can look up the very same FTC rules.

And yeah, seriously, this entire problem would be solved of RAH required you to call before placing an order, or would make it a policy to email you immediately if something is out of stock. Even as a one-guy operation, Dave is clearly checking the inventory when he goes to fill an order, then doing nothing but sitting on his hands when an item isn't in stock.

Will I be ordering from him again? Maybe. But I will always place the order via telephone. And, since often I place orders at 10pm, that's gonna mean at very least missed business opportunity.

 

[hball55]

Your attitude regarding RAH is refreshing; you are exercising your rights based on your experience and it is your choice whether or not to continue to do business with this vendor. I said as much in my post but George seems to think me and possibly others have done something illegal when stating our opinions. I challenge him to bring any such charges of illegal activity.

I recently had a far worse experience with a vendor posted title "Vendor Question." Nowhere in that post did I make a judgment on the vendor, nor did I advise anybody to not do business with that vendor as I believe we should all make our own decisions based on our individual experience with that vendor. Same goes with RAH . . . your experience, your decision.

I would say as much had you decided, for yourself, not to continue doing business with RAH. I would only object had you attempted to chill the opinions of others in this forum like George has, but you haven't.

Your recommendations for how vendors should conduct their business finds me in agreement and sadly we don't always get that service, hence your original post.

Thanks for you informational post.

What George said seems like a simple statement of fact to me... I presume that anyone who wants to can look up the very same FTC rules.

And yeah, seriously, this entire problem would be solved of RAH required you to call before placing an order, or would make it a policy to email you immediately if something is out of stock. Even as a one-guy operation, Dave is clearly checking the inventory when he goes to fill an order, then doing nothing but sitting on his hands when an item isn't in stock.

Will I be ordering from him again? Maybe. But I will always place the order via telephone. And, since often I place orders at 10pm, that's gonna mean at very least missed business opportunity.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Your attitude regarding RAH is refreshing; you are exercising your rights based on your experience and it is your choice whether or not to continue to do business with this vendor. I said as much in my post but George seems to think me and possibly others have done something illegal when stating our opinions. I challenge him to bring any such charges of illegal activity.

I recently had a far worse experience with a vendor posted title "Vendor Question." Nowhere in that post did I make a judgment on the vendor, nor did I advise anybody to not do business with that vendor as I believe we should all make our own decisions based on our individual experience with that vendor. Same goes with RAH . . . your experience, your decision.

I would say as much had you decided, for yourself, not to continue doing business with RAH. I would only object had you attempted to chill the opinions of others in this forum like George has, but you haven't.

Your recommendations for how vendors should conduct their business finds me in agreement and sadly we don't always get that service, hence your original post.

Thanks for you informational post.

+1 to this...

@ George... good info there relating to FTC "rules" but making it stick is something else... as for folks stating their OPINION of the matter or relating personal experiences and making inferences based on those experiences... I think you're way out of line... In fact I think you're cuckoo on that one. IMHO...

Of course YMMV... Later! OL JR

 

[georgegassaway]

Folks, you have the right to post any opinion you want.

Just like other people have the right to file a complaint with the FTC, and complain about illegal service.

Sounds like you want a complaint to be filed with the FTC....

The 30 day rule is a default if the seller does not state a timeframe. Since the seller does state a timeframe, 1-2 weeks, or 2-5 days with Hazmat, they are bound by law to ship for delivery within that time, or else they MUST contact the customer.

You excuse-makers keep ignoring the law here. The law requires contacting the customer if it's not in stock and won't be delivered in the advertised timeframe.

I wasn't as upset about this a few days ago (when I was not even going to identify the company that botched my order last summer, thinking it was a rare thing) as I am NOW by all the excuse makers, like this is an acceptable, REPUTABLE, and legal way to run a business.

It's not. It's ILLEGAL.

And you excuse-makers have just made things worse for the reputation of Red Arrow. I know you won't believe it, but you have, by your insistence that such a bad (and illegal) practice is OK. YOU might be willing to put up with it, but don't tell everyone else it's no big deal to them, because it is.

- George Gassaway

 

[JeromeK99]

So much anger....

It's not like he's torturing baby kittens here!

Bad customer service... perhaps.... but he's not stealing anybody's money... gives refunds if asked... giving customers excellent discounts...

Armchair lawyers and want-to-be cops seem to be on a witch hunt! I say just let economic natural selection take it's course. If things are truly that bad, he won't have any customers any ways/.. but seems by all the support he is getting, that is not the case.

Jerome

 

[troj]

I just did some pruning; this thread has gone far beyond the original topic and we're not going to start dragging in other vendors, non-rocketry vendors, etc.

Stick to the topic - Red Arrow. If you want a thread about your personal experiences with another vendor, then start one. But leave it out of this one.

-Kevin

 

[Zeroignite]

Compliance with the law would literally take an extra 30 seconds per order. I'm not really thrilled that other people think that buying something and having it show up "sometime, maybe" is ok. Let's have our vendors do what they say they will, shall we?

 

[georgegassaway]

It's not like he's torturing baby kittens here!

As sad and horrible as that would be for someone to do that.... it has nothing to do with anything here.

Torturing baby kittens has nothing to do with screwing over customers who make orders in good faith and expect the orders to be delivered in the timeframe advertised. Then those customers find out too late that their orders have not been processed and might take weeks or months to be delivered, and the seller didn't bother to tell them that.

When by LAW the seller is required to either ship for delivery within the advertised time, or contact the customer.

NO EXCUSES!

Gee, what other laws would you think is fine for a dealer to break? If some (hypothetical) dealer shipped K motors without using Hazmat, shipping them by Priority Mail, meaning some would end up on airliners, would that be OK to break those laws too just because you liked them?* Would a hypothetical company be excused if they too were a small company that has a 1990's style website so let them slide on compliance with shipping laws as well as FTC laws?

Or do you excuse-makers think a seller only has to follow some laws (like shipping - DOT-USPS), but not all of them (like....uh... SHIPPING, FTC)? What list of laws do you feel that a seller has to follow, and what list of laws do you feel a seller can ignore? I really want to know, now that you excuse-makers have opened that can of worms about ignoring some laws, which laws you think that RAH and others can ignore and which ones they should follow.

OK, clearly the one law all rocket dealers should follow is not to torture baby kittens (I'd say that was a given). Any other laws they should follow?

- George Gassaway

* - the example given is only a theoretical, not meant to refer to any real company

 

[mpitfield]

Jerome made up more excuses, including this straw-man:


As sad and horrible as that would be for someone to do that.... it has nothing to do with anything here.

Torturing baby kittens has nothing to do with screwing over customers who make orders in good faith and expect the orders to be delivered in the timeframe advertised. Then those customers find out too late that their orders have not been processed and might take weeks or months to be delivered.

When by LAW the seller is required to either ship for delivery within the advertised time, or contact the customer.

NO EXCUSES!

- George Gassaway

op:

 

[astronwolf]

So much anger....

I think that maybe some of us are reading too much into George's posts. Been following this thread. Interesting views all around. A good deal is nice to find, and if it works out.... good for you. But a good deal on vaporware is kind of pointless, and can be annoying.
-Wolf

 

[georgegassaway]

For those who may not have been able to read the smaller type from the FTC in my previous post:

If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment.

There is no provision for excuses such as a small operation or 1990's style website, or getting credit for NOT being an evil person who tortures baby kittens, in the FTC statement. And, again, the "30 days" is a default timeframe if the seller does not list a timeframe for delivery, which in this case RAH states as 1-2 weeks or 2-5 days with hazmat.

- George Gassaway

 

[JStarStar]

Over the years I have made several orders from RAH and GENERALLY they have been delivered in reasonable time.

I used to live over there (in fact I used to live about 3 miles from his store) and I enjoyed stopping in and looking over rockets and maybe making an impulse buy or two.

BUT ... I have also had a couple of orders which, shall we say, developed into more of a headache than they should have. Eventually they got sorted out but they required a couple more email go-rounds than they really needed to.

IMO (and of course I do not know all of the details of the situation) Dave might be able to address the problem for the most part with a new software and inventory control system and maybe a new computer. It would cost some money to put into place but if it ended up preventing a half-dozen customers from moving on to other vendors, the cost could be recouped pretty quickly.

 

[luke strawwalker]

So much anger....

It's not like he's torturing baby kittens here!

Bad customer service... perhaps.... but he's not stealing anybody's money... gives refunds if asked... giving customers excellent discounts...

Armchair lawyers and want-to-be cops seem to be on a witch hunt! I say just let economic natural selection take it's course. If things are truly that bad, he won't have any customers any ways/.. but seems by all the support he is getting, that is not the case.

Jerome

This I agree with...

Unless someone has not received a refund, I don't see any INTENT to not deliver or "defraud"... It's not like Sheri-gate when that vendor just left people hanging with NO product delivered, NO refund, and the only communication was shrieking epithets and threats... Or like a more recent vendor with their own thread here on the forum that completely screwed over a large number of customers... most of those folks who were victims of these two lost anywhere from around $100 bucks to several hundred bucks... I know I'd probably be headhunting if someone screwed me out of that much money... Heck I'm still PO'd that I supported "LAUNCH" magazine and got ripped off for about $36 bucks for a three year subscription, only a couple or three months after sending it, with NO attempt to make it right...

Anyway, George has the right to report them to the FTC if he thinks it violates the law, and not trade with them anymore, just like anybody else does-- it's a matter of personal choice as to whatever ANY of us do with our money, (so long as its legal) and I think we sometimes forget that... I know I laugh at people paying "STUPID prices" for stuff on fleabay, but it's my opinion, and basically it boils down to THEIR money so they can waste, ahem, spend it as they see fit (no matter how stupid it is). I think folks lose sight of that sometimes-- sorta like the arguments about folks from other countries working here and sending all their money back to their family in their home country, which I've heard many folks (elsewhere, not necessarily on the forums) lament-- but basically, it's THEIR MONEY, THEY EARNED IT and if they want to send it all out of the country, THAT's THEIR BUSINESS...

Let's all take a deep breath, here...

It pretty much boils down to personal preference. If you like RAH and don't mind the lack of communication and waiting for stuff to arrive and then be shipped to you, and enjoy the lower prices, GO FOR IT.

If that sort of thing is a problem for you, if you expect communication at every step of the transaction or instant (or near instant) notification of any delays or problems with the immediate fulfillment of the order, if you value an information-dense website with "realtime" stocking information, and if you don't mind paying for those things via a higher price for the product, there's a large number of vendors out there who can fulfill that need.

What YOU choose is up to YOU... I see the purpose here as "caveat emptor"-- let the buyer beware... an informed buyer is a happy buyer, or at least has no excuse...

As for George, if he wants to pursue his FTC complaint, that's his business... I wouldn't exactly hold my breath though... Lemme know how that works out for ya... :flyingpig:

We now return you to your regurrr-ly scheduled program...

Later! OL JR

 

[chris m]

This is just my opinion, so take it or leave it . I have gotten items from Dave at a launch . Now if I ordered online and waited that long I would be ticked . But with me communication is tops . If I call, email ,text or pm I should get a response within that day . Any less is not good in my book . There people here that I have pm and took days to get back . But with Dave I know and everyone else know now to call your order in . I have only one vendor that I email an order in everyone else is a call .

 

[matthew]

This is just my opinion, so take it or leave it . I have gotten items from Dave at a launch . Now if I ordered online and waited that long I would be ticked . But with me communication is tops . If I call, email ,text or pm I should get a response within that day . Any less is not good in my book . There people here that I have pm and took days to get back . But with Dave I know and everyone else know now to call your order in . I have only one vendor that I email an order in everyone else is a call .

You have to remember that a lot of vendors are on the road attending launches. I too like quick responses, but I temper that with an understanding that they may be out doing it instead of just thinking about it.

A friendly suggestion for Dave at RAH: Please update your website and take down products you know are OOP. The nature of using Paypal on your site is the customer pays up front for items you know you can't deliver. Additionally, knowing you can't deliver them, you should refund immediately instead of waiting for the customer to ask about the status of their order and then having to ask for the refund.