3 Stage Boosted Bertha

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A2R

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I would like to modify my Boosted Bertha from a 2-Stage to a 3-Stage adding another booster stage. Has anyone done this? Is there anything I should look out for or should it function just the same as it did before but now with 2 booster stages.
 
Just a quick look: 1.5 ounces of nose weight... and that's if you don't use fins on the booster.

3rd Stage D12-0 and a 2nd stage C11-0 gets a C6-5 powered Bertha off the rod at over 30 mph.

2023-11-16 3 Stage Boosted Bertha Simulation.jpg
 

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C6-0 (or B6-0) should be fine in the middle stage, no?

Since the plan is to add a second booster to a Boosted Bertha, I would assume the booster fins will be present and the nose weight not needed.
 
C6-0 (or B6-0) should be fine in the middle stage, no?

Since the plan is to add a second booster to a Boosted Bertha, I would assume the booster fins will be present and the nose weight not needed.
Lots of possible variations.... that's why I posted the OR file.

Bon Appétit
 
I actually have and insert that I use. So I can put 3 motors per stage. System worked great for 2 stage. I’d like to try it with 3 stages.
 
3x 18mm cluster in booster 1 certainly sounds exciting. If they don't all light, the flight will be an adventure. Building a cluster+staged model is on my list too, but I'm too conservative to go for three stages with something like that.
 
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Open rocket seems to think it will fly just fine. Is there any benefit to redoing the fins so that they are all in line? Altitude isn’t a priority at this point. Does being offset help the separation?
 
3x 18mm cluster in booster 1 certainly sounds exciting. If they don't all light, the flight will be an adventure. Building a cluster+staged model is on my list too, but I'm to conservative to go for three stages with something like that.
Actually, booster and sustainer were both 3x clusters and all lit. First cluster rocket for me.
 
Just a quick look: 1.5 ounces of nose weight... and that's if you don't use fins on the booster.

3rd Stage D12-0 and a 2nd stage C11-0 gets a C6-5 powered Bertha off the rod at over 30 mph.

View attachment 615752
So what is the minimum of the rod velocity that you would want. RockSim says Big Bertha on a C6-0/C6-5 runs at about 18mph,
Just a quick look: 1.5 ounces of nose weight... and that's if you don't use fins on the booster.

3rd Stage D12-0 and a 2nd stage C11-0 gets a C6-5 powered Bertha off the rod at over 30 mph.

View attachment 615752
So what speed should I be looking for otr? RockSim is saying Boosted Bertha running c6-0/c6-3 has a otr of 18mph. Running 3-c60 at all three stages has me otr at 25mph.
 
So what is the minimum of the rod velocity that you would want. RockSim says Big Bertha on a C6-0/C6-5 runs at about 18mph,

So what speed should I be looking for otr? RockSim is saying Boosted Bertha running c6-0/c6-3 has a otr of 18mph. Running 3-c60 at all three stages has me otr at 25mph.
30 mph
 
One size (or speed) does not necessarily fit all.

because multistage rockets generally have much more fin surface area, they are prone to weathercocking. We tend to want to compensate with nose weight (which works), but the extra tail surface area drag and the weight tends to slow down the rocket off the pad.

so 30 fps may be fine for a single stage, and it maaaaay be okay for multistage. But faster Is pretty much always better if you can do it. Longer rod (or better yet, longer rail) also helps.

resist temptation to fly with winds over 5 mph.

concur with Neil, the big task is getting enough Oooomph to get off the pad. Middle stage motors and sustainer motors can be just about as low as you can get (Well, an A8-0 will work in the middle, that might be stylistically a leeettle short.). You definitely do not need a 24 mm in the mid stage. And an A8-5 will probably be great for sustainer. Plus side is smaller upper stage motors=lower pad weight=better velocity off the rod or rail.

another plus is a shorter walk to recover all three parts.

you can always go bigger on the second flight. Going small on first flight increases chances of their BEING a second flight.
 
Yes, I did see that. You are right, CHAD (CHeap And Dirty, for the novices) staging is an exception to the rule. I theeeeenk it requires either intrinsically heavily overstable rockets or a lot of nose weight. I still think people should aim a little higher than the minimum standard rod exit speed for staged birds, if for no other reason than the stakes are higher, especially for black powder staging. The FarSide, MicroSonde, and Commanche are more typical three stage birds and employ a LOT of fin surface area. The Lil' Augie is a cool CHAD stage design that doesn't have overly large fins.

You get a bit of rod whip or a puff of wind on a single stage bird and maybe it goes cruise missile, still most likely will have ejection event IN THE AIR, so while anything can undergo fecal turbine interaction, the most likely bad events are a zipper, a long walk, or a lost rocket.

A STAGED rocket goes cruise missile off the rod, there is a good chance it may come to earth BEFORE all motors are expended. Chance of a fire from a lit motor landsharking the rocket on the ground is higher.

I love black powder staging. The biggest down side from a safety issue is that there is no "tilt" or other stage ignition cancellation mechanism. Once the bottom stage lights, the probability that the upper stage(s) will light is pretty high REGARDLESS of the attitude or altitude of the rocket. So I tend to push toward being conservative on getting that stack off the pad with authority (good robust motor, as you recommend), and for first flights going conservative DOWN with wimpier motors in the sustainer and and mid-stages.

My experience has been that while many rockets fly straight up right to apogee, if they START to weathercock that almost always progresses with altitude, and barring some REALLY cool electronics I have seen on the Staging forum (I think only with high power rockets) weathercocking RARELY corrects.
 
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RockSim has me off the rod 27mph. That's using a 60in rod. Margin 13.2 overstable.
1st Stage C6-0 x 3
2nd Stage A8-0 x3
3rd Stage A8-5 x 3
 
RockSim has me off the rod 27mph. That's using a 60in rod. Margin 13.2 overstable.
1st Stage C6-0 x 3
2nd Stage A8-0 x3
3rd Stage A8-5 x 3
9 motors per launch? I'm not an expert- does 9 motors add up to enough propellant to put it out of the category of model rocket?

I realize this is a totally different animal but just put a 24mm mount in a single stage and use an E30.

If we're still talking about Big Bertha the easiest thing is to make the first stage a 24mm mount and use a D12-0 (or is there a C11-0?).
 
9 motors per launch? I'm not an expert- does 9 motors add up to enough propellant to put it out of the category of model rocket?

I realize this is a totally different animal but just put a 24mm mount in a single stage and use an E30.

If we're still talking about Big Bertha the easiest thing is to make the first stage a 24mm mount and use a D12-0 (or is there a C11-0?).
I hadn’t really thought about max propellant. From my quick search it looks like it’s 125g, I think I’m around 110g if I were to use 9-C6.
I totally get your point regarding a larger 1st stage. It’s not a ton of work for me to add on a 3rd stage to this rocket and I like the idea of launching a 3 stage cluster rocket.
 
9 motors per launch? I'm not an expert- does 9 motors add up to enough propellant to put it out of the category of model rocket?
3xC6 to 3xA8 to 3xA8 is 52g propellant, well within the 125g limit
I hadn’t really thought about max propellant. From my quick search it looks like it’s 125g, I think I’m around 110g if I were to use 9-C6.
I totally get your point regarding a larger 1st stage. It’s not a ton of work for me to add on a 3rd stage to this rocket and I like the idea of launching a 3 stage cluster rocket.
9xC6 is 97g of propellant.

I'm a clustering fool, so I have a spreadsheet for this. 🤣

Edit to add: there's a risk in staged clusters that not all motors on the next stage will light. Gap staging might help this, or may not. Seems that your first results were promising.
 
3xC6 to 3xA8 to 3xA8 is 52g propellant, well within the 125g limit

9xC6 is 97g of propellant.

I'm a clustering fool, so I have a spreadsheet for this. 🤣

Edit to add: there's a risk in staged clusters that not all motors on the next stage will light. Gap staging might help this, or may not. Seems that your first results were promising.
“A“ motors in stage 2 and 3 will have an advantage for staging, they have larger bores so more surface area exposed to the radiant heat from the booster motors burn through gas (booster motors have no clay cap.

ideally gap staging should have proper venting just below the nozzle of the next stage, but for short gaps of 1-2 inches it probably doesn’t matter. When you go over 50 inches, it DOES matter.

doesn’t hurt to put a thick wire or very small screw driver up the nozzles of the upper stages to scrape the powder and make sure there is no clay.

I know you think it can’t happen, but doesn’t hurt to mark the zero delay motors with a red pen on the nozzle end and the non-zero delay with black or another color, something you can see AFTER the motor is loaded in its stage and something you can double check when you fit The two or three parts together at the pad. I have personally screwed this up, so I know of what I speak. Both mixed up booster and sustainer (fortunately RSO caught it) and put a sustainer in backwards (Wasn’t so lucky that time.)

I’ve done a 3 stage with 3 to 2 to 1 successfully. I have never tried a 3-3-3 stack. Hope you get 9 straight trails!
 
I’ve never actually measured the gap but it’s around 2 inches. I do have 3 small vent holes. I also painted some quick burst onto the second stage to help with ignition. The second flight the second stage didn’t have quick burst on them because I didn’t bring any to the field and I made sure to line up both stages. All six engines lit on both flights.
 
I’ve never actually measured the gap but it’s around 2 inches. I do have 3 small vent holes. I also painted some quick burst onto the second stage to help with ignition. The second flight the second stage didn’t have quick burst on them because I didn’t bring any to the field and I made sure to line up both stages. All six engines lit on both flights.
Pictures make it real.
 
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