Boosted Big Daddy.

[86mustang408w]

Well. I couldn't help but try out this booster idea. Its gonna work too, Thats the cool part. But sat down, measured, did labels for the fins, and then fit. Made 2 cheesy centering rings, but they will work for mock ups. I just need to take a little material out of the inside of the centering rings to fit that spool motor tube thats 24mm inside and just over 29mm outside diameter. I ordered motors for this idea with my Super Big Bertha. So I'm thinking a C11-0/D12-0 to a main D12-3 for a test flight. I'm going to make the booster with a motor block inside that spool far enough up for a E 24mm motor to fit, and maybe a hook. I can use a space for C11-D12. If the hook isn't long(or wide enough to fit thru the motor tube), ill just use a 29mm retainer and a washer in the booster motor retainer to hold in the 24mm motors. Used old stock spare Big Daddy fins, and a BT-80 tube. With fin slots and I need to wait to cut the fin tabs down until I get the centering rings and fit that tube in them. It works out better because the BT-80 centering ring, around that spool, sits at a 90 degree angle to the bottom CR in the Big Daddy. And It slides over the D hook, and the Big Daddy motor snug enough to hold it on during D12-0 ejection and D12-3 ignition stage of the booster.

 

[86mustang408w]

Liking it...testing after assembly and dry time..

 

[kuririn]

Beat ya to it.

 

[86mustang408w]

Beat ya to it.

View attachment 595714

Hahahah! Yeah wanted to do it with my Super Big Bertha like this for about 2 months. But just cut and gave it a 29mm tail instead. Was a bit of a challenge doing it to a rocket I built 10 years ago...

 

[86mustang408w]

Beat ya to it.

View attachment 595714

What motors are you using? Just curious I have 2 more yet to build with 24mm and 29mm plywood centering rings/fins and might make a booster section for them But this idea was off of my Boosted Super Big Bertha. How did it fly!?

 

[kuririn]

What motors are you using? Just curious I have 2 more yet to build with 24mm and 29mm plywood centering rings/fins and might make a booster section for them But this idea was off of my Boosted Super Big Bertha. How did it fly!?

It will use up to E size 24mm motors.
Have to do the sims first, then launch when we get access to a larger field.
Great minds think alike!

 

[86mustang408w]

I like it...Motors should be here by next week.

 

[86mustang408w]

It will use up to E size 24mm motors.
Have to do the sims first, then launch when we get access to a larger field.
Great minds think alike!

Got you! This was definitely a challenge. My idea with my Extremely heavy Super Big Bertha need a booster. But turned into a 29mm swap. So this sat right in my line of view, and that "spool" is a perfect adapter for this project. Ill pay updates for sure! I have a 29mm one, but don't think a H motor rocket need a booster?!?...

 

[techrat]

There's no way a C-11 is going to lift a rocket like the Big Daddy, let alone a booosted Daddy, plus the weight of another D12 motor.
My guess is you'd need an E in the booster section and then a D or C-11 in the sustainer.

 

[86mustang408w]

There's no way a C-11 is going to lift a rocket like the Big Daddy, let alone a booosted Daddy, plus the weight of another D12 motor.
My guess is you'd need an E in the booster section and then a D or C-11 in the sustainer.

My 320 gram(without motor) Super Big Bertha showed 220 feet for Apogee with a D12-3 in OpenRocket(im aware its off by a certain percentage. I'm not sure if I'll use a C11 it was a thought. This is gonna be a backyard flier, I'm hoping for maybe 600 feet with both sections, maybe.... But a D12-0 will, I feel, will be perfect for a test flight. I'll leave room for a E9 or E12-0. I've gotten at least 450 feet with a D12-3, so with the booster it will be considerably less. I can fly that Big Daddy that with a C6-0, and have successfully. It weights 230 grams w/o the motor, and the section will be right around 100-110 without the motor adn ill be using glue to dave on weight. So about 340g total empty. Ill get some info but I expect the booster to burn out about 100 to 150 feet up then the the next motor to take it a little higher. I thought and compared quite a bit of other rockets/motors, with real world tests. Its not some random attempt, I'm told this about many of the projects I post here. So i mean no disrespect. But I will, either way, post results!!

 

[Daddyisabar]

A single D12 0 is a little weak to properly lift a two stage, stock built Big Daddy. Will stage at an angle making for a long recovery walk and possibly drawing a slight stink eye from the RSO.

 

[SolarYellow]

D12-0 is a better booster on a marginal rocket than an E12-0. The thrust curves overly each other, the E just trails out longer. So the D has the same thrust but less weight. It should get off the rod slightly better, although it will stage sooner at lower altitude. But even that is good, because it means you transition to the next initial high thrust phase that much sooner, giving the rocket less time to tip toward the side.

 

[BABAR]

Save some weight on the sustainer AND improve stability. Use a motor adapter and downsize the sustainer to 18mm motor. A8-5 would be best, A8-3 is likely to be too early.

Most of the “show” in staging flights is the staging itself (separation and watching the IGNITED sustainer get started.)

Especially for a small field, downsizing is win, win, win, win

Lighter sustainer motor = higher velocity off the rod

Better for stability of stack (less tail weight moves CG forward.

Smaller motor means lower altitude at apogee, therefore shorted walk and more likely to stay in field. Latter is PARTICULARLY important for stagers, which are far more prone to weathercocking, at least for low power.

Lower cost per motor.

 

[86mustang408w]

A single D12 0 is a little weak to properly lift a two stage, stock built Big Daddy. Will stage at an angle making for a long recovery walk and possibly drawing a slight stink eye from the RSO.

Thats why I'm testing it, as I do all of mine before I take it anywhere else. I would never test an idea like this at a launch.

 

[86mustang408w]

Save some weight on the sustainer AND improve stability. Use a motor adapter and downsize the sustainer to 18mm motor. A8-5 would be best, A8-3 is likely to be too early.

Most of the “show” in staging flights is the staging itself (separation and watching the IGNITED sustainer get started.)

Especially for a small field, downsizing is win, win, win, win

Lighter sustainer motor = higher velocity off the rod

Better for stability of stack (less tail weight moves CG forward.

Smaller motor means lower altitude at apogee, therefore shorted walk and more likely to stay in field. Latter is PARTICULARLY important for stagers, which are far more prone to weathercocking, at least for low power.

Lower cost per motor.

Ok, I got you. This was just an idea i wanted to do for my Super Big Bertha. Its an old kit, and way to heavy. But it would and has fly on a D12-3, like it is now as Openrocket says 220 feet for apogee and it will work. With the exception of the weight I added in poster board skins(the shipping labels were not big enough), and paint it will fly just like it did 10 years ago but just a little lower apogee. But now it has some newer upgrades on the top end as well now the bottom. But I found that one spool, and thought it would be cool to use it as a booster section for an already built rocket that needs some help going up a little more. So I've been thinking about this for a few weeks and wanted to fly SBB @ SPAAR on a D12-3, just to get it up again. But ran into issues and didn't have time to send it. So I got back home last week and started on the idea. Only thing is all the scratch parts I had laying around, started to look really nice. My goal was to make something with what I have, and nothing more. But as it tunred out I needed centering rings for a BT-80 tube and 29mm ID. I have them for my Alpha H motor upscale which when I started back in this again in May this year(Im 40 and started in a Rocketry Class in 1990), was going to use for my L1 cert flight. But got an old collection back from 2013 and have been working to finish or modify those So I bought a lot again in May(another $1800 or so to tright now) 2023, and added my collection from 2013 to it. It's a lot of stuff to deal with right now, and kind of why I was using Google for answers and it brought me right back here and I caused a little issue opening up old threads which I'm still not sure what I did wrong as most were my old threads from 10 years ago. You can see my post history and gaps... But anyways that spool(its from a nylon twine masonry line like you buy at Coles or Lowes, etc..), is 29mm on the outside. So, once again 100 more ideas ran thru my head. And just thought why not make a 29mm tail section and just swap it? I debated, measured about 10 times, then cut. It couldn't have worked out better. So, I'm not going to fly anything crazy in it, but like my Quest Big Dog. I said the heck with it and after 10 years and the crappy motor adapter the ygive you, and just put a 99 cent 3D printed 29mm motor retainer on it. Now, I have a wide variety of motors I can fly from literally a C6-0 with adapters, E9-4(15 years old, non-CATO ones), or I just ordered 200 bux in BP and a mix of Composite motors from eRockets for $14 total shipping! So, the 29mm option I'm doing is to really give me that cheap black powder prices that I can go an get them in person right at Hobby Lobby 15 mins away. Then I can test all this stuff, then go bigger...

But back the Big Daddy. I built this 10 years ago, and didn't think I used a 24mm E hook. Well putting some wadding in the motor tube so the dog barf wouldn't go down in the tube as this rocket eats laundry(I even handmade a chute protector, as well as some others that work great to help it), but that little orange spacer came out. I really wanted to send it on a 24mm-E-BP motor, but didn't get the chance. Twisted my knee @ SPARR last Sat getting this Big Daddy back from another successful D12-3 flight. With the nosecone mods and bulkhead, etc....So after getting back home and cutting Super Big Bertha apart. I thought when I looked at my Big Daddy. I could use that....So, that's where I'm at and I'm still thinking about it...

Started at age 7 in 1990, got back into in 2012 after a career ending injury at UPS. So now im back into it, after almost a very unwated 10 year break. I was working a shard as I could to get these done for that launch, but now i have some time to sit. and type out whats going on with my laptop rather than my phone that justs writes anthing its wants and makes me look like a crackhead with model rockets....So, even getting OpenRocket, and the JL chute release had bee nlife cahgning for me. Im partially diasbled, so dont work right now and have a very difficulkt time doign things. Even if you watch my youtube videos I mis-pronounce or say thigs goofy. I mjsut in a ton of pain and, need to do this. I joined NAR finally lasst week after 33 years of wanting too. I swear it was requirement to join with that model rocketry class at Super Saturdays back in 1990, but cant find the info. But im going fo rmy L1 cert flight hopefully soon. But going to URRG in NY in Sept to check thigns out and maybe fly one or two before LDRS is held there next year. So, after 10 really horrible years, im getting to do wante I wanted then, Probably why I see a little excited some times. Its finally hitting the play button after a very long pause, and fast forward to now, with all the stuff I got 10 years go. Its amazing right now, I finally got fins and centering rings for my Mega Der Red Max in 38mm from RocketryWorks right before he sent that heartbreaking email out about him closing. I'm a grown man and it almost brought a tear to my eye. I'm like on man here we go back 10 years and all this bad luck stuff is gonna happen again. But, lol, I'm getting laser engraver for metal, and its cuts plywood up to half inch. Which I'm just using this for rocketry so it will be fine, soon. But I even went to Walmart last night and got a new scale. So, I'm jolting my memory and implying some new build techniques. Like kevlar shock cord to the motor tube on all rockets even low power, chute spill holes in the cheap plastic chutes, handmade chute protectors, etc.. I'm slowly catching up. And I've spent a half hour typing(another thing my injures have taken from me, the abilty to type for along period of time or even hold a pencil), so I'm going to get back to building. I appreciate the feedback, and I mall about safety too. I don't go crazy like this with all my builds, but some need a little help....

 

[bjphoenix]

I suggest a cluster of 2 C11 in the booster, is it reasonably easy to duct 2 motor mounts into 1 sustainer mount?

 

[bad_idea]

If you build the booster w/o TTW fins, you have room for seven C11-0 motors. That plus a single E12 in the sustainer would total 119.9g of propellant, well within the 125g limit of a Class 1 rocket. That would give around 140N thrust off the pad, which should be more than enough to handle any additional nose weight required.

If the booster is too heavy to tumble safely with seven expended motor hulls, perhaps devote one or more tubes to firing a parachute pod with -3, -5, or -7 motors and duct the remainder to the central motor of the sustainer.

I offer this as only a semi-serious suggestion to anyone else. To myself, it's a future plan.

 

[techrat]

If you build the booster w/o TTW fins, you have room for seven C11-0 motors.

Having just launched a 3 motor cluster today where only 2 of the motors actually lit, that's an interesting idea and one that's mighty tricky to pull off in real life. Even very experienced rocketeers have had this issue. At URRF we had a 1:1 scale Patriot Missile with $8000 of propellant in it, and althouh everything was tested, retested and it was basically done by some of the best in the hobby, only 3 of 5 motors lit and it still had a succesful flight, but not the one the team had been hoping for.

You could also use an F15-0 for the booster and an E-motor of your choice for the sustainer and probably get double the altitude. And it would be cheaper to fly and if you were worried about it going too high, just under-chute it, or heck, use a streamer.

 

[bad_idea]

Having just launched a 3 motor cluster today where only 2 of the motors actually lit, that's an interesting idea and one that's mighty tricky to pull off in real life.

Not at all. Blackpowder motors have a cheat code for clustering that composite motors don't. I have successfully lighted all seven motors of a 7x18 cluster many, many times (well over 100 motors total) using the MJG black powder starters, with the lone failure being when one of them pulled free of the tape I was then using to secure them in the nozzles. I subsequently switched to using poster putty to retain them based on a tip here on TRF and have not had another failure. I've also had six or eight flights on 3 and 4 x 24 black powder clusters with D & E motors without a single failure. I can't recommend the MJG starters more highly; they make black powder clustering a breeze.

You could also use an F15-0 for the booster and an E-motor of your choice for the sustainer and probably get double the altitude. And it would be cheaper to fly and if you were worried about it going too high, just under-chute it, or heck, use a streamer.

There's all sorts of cost/performance optimization that could be done, but a single F15 is IMO woefully underpowered as a booster for anything but a very light sustainer, which a Big Daddy is decidedly not. A pair of D12s cost less than a single F15 and would together make a far better booster, but I'd probably go with three if I went that route.

The reason I suggest (again, to myself, not to others) 7xC11s is simply that I enjoy big black powder clusters.

Re. "E-motor of your choice," that's a good point. I was forgetting about the E16. An E16 has only 4g more propellant than an E12, but 6 more Ns of impulse. It's actually the Estes motor with the highest specific impulse. Even better, it stays - barely! - under 125g of total propellant when flying atop seven C11s.

 

[86mustang408w]

If you build the booster w/o TTW fins, you have room for seven C11-0 motors. That plus a single E12 in the sustainer would total 119.9g of propellant, well within the 125g limit of a Class 1 rocket. That would give around 140N thrust off the pad, which should be more than enough to handle any additional nose weight required.

If the booster is too heavy to tumble safely with seven expended motor hulls, perhaps devote one or more tubes to firing a parachute pod with -3, -5, or -7 motors and duct the remainder to the central motor of the sustainer.

I offer this as only a semi-serious suggestion to anyone else. To myself, it's a future plan.

I'm not getting that wild with it. Its just a fun build to see if the booster idea I had for Super Big Bertha, will work. Its just spare parts I have laying around. But I have 2 more to build(another in 24mm and one in 29mm all from Rocketryworks),and will definitely think about more motors. If this idea works! And will definitely be easier to build all together over adapting this one to a built rocket.

I'll respond to some of your other guys too! My phone is not giving me notifications I had no idea anyone even posted. Sorry guys im working on this!

 

[86mustang408w]

Not at all. Blackpowder motors have a cheat code for clustering that composite motors don't. I have successfully lighted all seven motors of a 7x18 cluster many, many times (well over 100 motors total) using the MJG black powder starters, with the lone failure being when one of them pulled free of the tape I was then using to secure them in the nozzles. I subsequently switched to using poster putty to retain them based on a tip here on TRF and have not had another failure. I've also had six or eight flights on 3 and 4 x 24 black powder clusters with D & E motors without a single failure. I can't recommend the MJG starters more highly; they make black powder clustering a breeze.

There's all sorts of cost/performance optimization that could be done, but a single F15 is IMO woefully underpowered as a booster for anything but a very light sustainer, which a Big Daddy is decidedly not. A pair of D12s cost less than a single F15 and would together make a far better booster, but I'd probably go with three if I went that route.

The reason I suggest (again, to myself, not to others) 7xC11s is simply that I enjoy big black powder clusters.

Re. "E-motor of your choice," that's a good point. I was forgetting about the E16. An E16 has only 4g more propellant than an E12, but 6 more Ns of impulse. It's actually the Estes motor with the highest specific impulse. Even better, it stays - barely! - under 125g of total propellant when flying atop seven C11s.

I'm just getting interested in boosters. I had about a 10 year break from all of this(health problems that are still not good), and I'm getting back into it finally. I started in 1990 building these and I'm 40.... So its a mix of old build that needs to be fixed, or finished. So I'm really just trying to clean up what I started back in 2012, after an injury. Onge I get these builds finished ill start fresh builds. And it will be so much easier. I ha e a good Aerotech launch controller so clusters won't be an issue especially if its only 2, or 3. Lots of good info here thank you, I'm going thru and trying to respond to all, this phone will be the death of me!!

 

[86mustang408w]

Having just launched a 3 motor cluster today where only 2 of the motors actually lit, that's an interesting idea and one that's mighty tricky to pull off in real life. Even very experienced rocketeers have had this issue. At URRF we had a 1:1 scale Patriot Missile with $8000 of propellant in it, and althouh everything was tested, retested and it was basically done by some of the best in the hobby, only 3 of 5 motors lit and it still had a succesful flight, but not the one the team had been hoping for.

You could also use an F15-0 for the booster and an E-motor of your choice for the sustainer and probably get double the altitude. And it would be cheaper to fly and if you were worried about it going too high, just under-chute it, or heck, use a streamer.

Ok! Wow!! Thank you!!

 

[86mustang408w]

I suggest a cluster of 2 C11 in the booster, is it reasonably easy to duct 2 motor mounts into 1 sustainer mount?

I have 2 more to build, fresh. So it will be easy to do that. This is more of a fun will it actually work build going off my Super Big Bertha that I just ended up doing a tail transplant to over the booster idea. The Big Daddy I have now is heavy, but as I found out last weekend its not built for just 24mm D motors, it can take up to E as that orange spacer fell out and it was stuck in the motor tube. I flew it 10 years ago and got 2 lawn darts and haven't touched it until about 3 weeks ago. And my thoughts are making things 29mm, is I can run composite and with an adapter smaller blackpower motors cheap from hobby lobby, and I have many older ones that are not CATO prone. But just got this order from eRockets, so now I have some more motors to play with. And got them all shipped for under 15 bux..

 

[techrat]

There's all sorts of cost/performance optimization that could be done, but a single F15 is IMO woefully underpowered as a booster for anything but a very light sustainer, which a Big Daddy is decidedly not.

I flew "King Ring" just yesterday on an Estes Black Powder F15-4 at CENJARS, and it flew very nicely with a good long burn. As you can see, it started life as a Big Daddy kit, but since I already have Big Daddy (see my avatar); I made this one 29mm and added that huge heavy ring fin (with Burger King Crown embellishments), which brings the rocket in at 365grams dry weight (no motor), but it still worked out and flew in a relatively small field.

 

[techrat]

Not to hijack this thread, but here's King Ring under power from an F15 - which despite the drag and weight of this design, performed very will on a black powder motor.

 

[86mustang408w]

Not to hijack this thread, but here's King Ring under power from an F15 - which despite the drag and weight of this design, performed very will on a black powder motor.

You're not hijacking anything! I'm always up for information. Mines at 220g w/o motor. So, my 29mm build shouldn't be too far off in weight I'm really ready to get that going I've never messed with the Estes F15, all my 29mm stuff uses a retainer. I kind of stayed away from them for builds. Only because you need a motor block or friction fit them I believe. I'm just making the builds 29mm so I can run BP motors too. But I dont have any rockets setup for a BP 29mm motor. This was just an idea to see if it works with that yarn or string spool. Ill get more in depth when I have a fresh build. I'm even thinking of building the 24mm version to build this booster right. I know it would work on the black/sliver one. But maybe it makes more sense to make sure it will work. I can always make another one. I still have one more set of spare fins. But im open to all Info. I'm just reading what everyone wrote and is writing to see whats best. I'm still debating in how I want to do it, and I'm still waiting on CR's. Once I have those I'll be able to build more.

I was even thinking about like mentioned with clusters, building a 5 cluster 24mm, D12 motor Big Daddy. But make centering rings that would allow that for the forward and aft sections to house the motor tubes. It could be done. It might need one D12 in the center and then something 18mm on the outside. But I'm sure a 24mm would fit, might as well just do a cluster of lets say 5-E motors. I'll have to check the total impluse but it should not be over whats legal and whats not.

 

[techrat]

I kind of stayed away from them for builds. Only because you need a motor block or friction fit them I believe.

Yes... What I did was I took some standard-width masking tape, laid out a strip on my cutting mat, and then cut lengthwise into thirds. Each third was wrapped around the business-end of the motor, and then for a little added benefit, I added some thin CA to hold it in place. That worked out well. Also, because I've had some Estes CATOs, I also added a ring of CA to the clay nozzle, just around the edge, where it meets the cardboard wall.

 

[86mustang408w]

Yes... What I did was I took some standard-width masking tape, laid out a strip on my cutting mat, and then cut lengthwise into thirds. Each third was wrapped around the business-end of the motor, and then for a little added benefit, I added some thin CA to hold it in place. That worked out well. Also, because I've had some Estes CATOs, I also added a ring of CA to the clay nozzle, just around the edge, where it meets the cardboard wall.

Ok. I'm trying my best to stay away from certain motors. I don't mind anyone chiming in that has anything to, constructively say or ask why. Like I might have mentioned im getting back into this again after a few years not paying attention to this really at all. But now in May I started a new collection then probably above like I might have already said(Sorry im on a phone most if the time and its a pain to keep track of notifications and responses on this thing) I got an old one back and have been building and fixing them for about a month so far. And that May collection pretty much got put on hold. But I bought a bunch of stuff in May and was planning in getting my L1 with that. But then got so much more back from when I bought in 2012/13. I'm really excited to build my Mega Der Red Max after buying it, and it along with another Partizon to build yet. But I was using Rocketryworks for pretty much everything this past May to now. So took my ten year old Big Daddy and chopped the nosecone shoulder off, made a bulkhead with and eyelet bolt, and upgraded the shock cord. But then my Super Big Bertha is very heavy. And I thought with this spool I found it would be awesome to build a booster as it was 29mm outside and 24mm inside. It would have worked, so I started making it and it came out so nice I just decided to swap that tail and do a 29mm setup for SBB. So I used that booster idea then and thought for this Big Daddy it might work, and I am going to try it. But in May I bought a Big Daddy and then 24mm centering rings/plywood fin upgrades from Rocketryworks. Then when I got that older collection back with that 10 year old already built Black one, I modified it. But had another Big Daddy to make 3 total with just that black one built so far. So with one of my orders from Rocketryworks, I bought a 29mm Big Daddy upgrade kit. So....I'm in the middle of finishing my Crossfire ISX E, SBB 29mm tail swap, and building this booster section for Big Daddy. So, I'm just looking at what I could do with the plywood 24mm one. Or just buy another one, and make my own upgrades when I get my laser machine. And that fourth one could be like we are talking about.
Sorry for the long story, but it helps to throw out a little backstory so you can see where im at, and what I'm kind of thinking. And im very open minded and take advice if its solid. So buy all means feel free to add whatever you want! Its all about education for me and helping out others.

 

[BABAR]

I suggest a cluster of 2 C11 in the booster, is it reasonably easy to duct 2 motor mounts into 1 sustainer mount?

Not easy but can be done. I’ve done one to three successfully on two different scratch models with cardboard tubes.

Although now with 3D printers may be easier, if plastic will hold up to heat of zero delay motor blow through (weaker than ejection but plenty hot, especially with added transient exposure to sustainer nozzle blast .)

 

[BABAR]

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