Ejection Charge/shear pin question.

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CZ Brat

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Hey all. I am building a short 4" scratch built that requires 10-12 oz of nose weight. I plan on flying on a 29/180, probably H128 or G77. My parachute bay is 4" long and 3.9 diameter. My nose cone thus has a surface area of about 12 inches square. The reload kit says to use the full amount for 4" rockets, but the length of my bay is short. I was thinking of using shear pins to avoid drag seperation with such a heavy NC (about 1 lb total). Apagee.com says 3 shear pins require at least 65 lbs of force, so at least 5.5 PSI. How much BP is in those reloads and how much pressure would they create? Is shear pins overkill?
 
10-12 ozs/ Wow! Is there anyway to trim off the shoulder of the cone and move the recovery train up there?

Even so, that only buys me an ounce or two. The issue is I am short (14" body,16.5" exposed nose cone) with fins that extend the entire body tube. I am going for a specific, less traditional look, and it requires some crazy technical solutions. I am nervous that if this 2.5 lb rocket with 10-12 ounces in the nose cone ever lawn darted, it could be a very dangerous rocket.
 
I use 2.5mm shear screws, so i'm providing full working here for you to be able to adjust it to your requirements.

Nylon 6/6 Resin has nominal shear strength of 69,00KPa at 23 degrees Celsius.

I use the major diameter of the screw rather htan the thread area for calculating shear, as it gives me a margin of error for allowing manufacturer tolerances.

The major diameter of the 2.5mm screw is 2.48mm.
The cross-sectional area of a round shear pin, as these screws are being treated is simple to compute.
area = pi * radius2
The major shear area is 4.830mm2

69,000KPa means the shear force required is 69,000,000Newtons per square meter, or 69Newtons per square mm.
The therefore will require 333.27Newtons to shear each pin.

The ejection charge must be capable of over pressurising the parachute bays to the point that the three shear pins, and friction of the coupler is overcome and the airframe separates. As the airframe is a constant diameter, and the number of shear pins and expected coupler friction is constant the only variable determining the quantity of black powder is the length of the bay.

Using a simplified equation of black powder combustion, we know that approx. 0.0155 moles of gas products is generated per gram of black powder.

With three shear pins requiring 333.27 Newtons of force to break and an estimated 23 newtons of friction to overcome (assuming your nose is loose), an estimated 1022.81 newtons of force is required to separate the airframe.

In an airframe with an inner diameter of 99.1mm, giving 7713.246mm2 of area to act upon, 132.6KPa is required to cause separation. An oversizing of 20% to allow for incomplete combustion or other factors yields a required 159.12KPa pressure requirement.

The ideal gas law states that
PV = nRT
Where:
P is the pressure in atmospheres
V is the volume in litres
n is the moles of gas products
R is the gas constant of 0.082058L atm/mol K
and T is the temperature in Kelvin.
1 atmosphere is equal to 0.101325MPa, meaning we require 1.57 atmospheres of pressure from the black powder combustion.

To solve for moles of gas products required:
n=PV/RT
For your rocket with a volume of 793.571cm3 require
n=(1.57*0.793571)/(0.082058*3273)
n=0.00463893735mol

divide by the number of moles of gas per gram of bp and you require 0.299g of black powder.

These calculations do give you an over-sized charge, but not to the point of most online calculators that use rule of thumb formulas do. Never had a calculated ejection charge fail on me :) You may need to adjust nose cone friction if you have anything other than a easy fit (although I've had my primary ejection charge blow off ones that basically needed to be hammered in).
 
Issus,

This is awesome. My next question is where do I find out how much BP comes in a reload kit or SU Motor? I am using 29/180 kits or G80 SU or H55 SU motors. Since I have not built it yet, I want to make sure my design will work with the BP supplied. Obviously, on the reloads, I can weigh out the required amount assuming it is equal/less than what is supplied. I am cautious about adding more than supplied. Any good place that tells what the manufacturer supplies with reloads/SU motors?
 
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The verified data for the breaking strength of shear screws is located here. https://www.rocketmaterials.org/datastore/cord/Shear_Pins/index.php

What simulation did you use to determine you need 12 oz. of weight in the NC?

Where is the CP and how did you calculate it, and where is the CG located with the desired motors loaded into the rocket?

You may also have to modify the way the shock cord is attached to the NC as you may break the standard plastic attachment point on ejection.

Bob
 
The verified data for the breaking strength of shear screws is located here. https://www.rocketmaterials.org/datastore/cord/Shear_Pins/index.php

What simulation did you use to determine you need 12 oz. of weight in the NC?

Where is the CP and how did you calculate it, and where is the CG located with the desired motors loaded into the rocket?

You may also have to modify the way the shock cord is attached to the NC as you may break the standard plastic attachment point on ejection.

Bob

I used Open Rocket. The Cp of this 4", 31.8" long rocket is 21.8" aft of NC tip. CG is about 17.1 with an H128 and 9 OZ of NC weight (changed from 10-12 oz because I went with longer NC). The thing is, the body tube is 14" and so is the root of the fins. I plan to cut off the base of the plastic NC and glue in 1/4" plywood bulkhead about 1.5" inside the 2.5" base. I attached a screenshot to better explain. I am going for a "Stealth" look, so aerodynamics and stability are getting a little tricky. Though not shown, I will be laying 1/4" triangular balsa strips as the "fillets" to enhance the angular stealthy look.

I saw the verified data and that is good stuff. Now all I need to know, how much BP comes in my desired SU and reloads. Couldn't find anything from Aerotech.

NDRS-SC4.jpgNDRS-SC4.1.jpg
 
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I've been flying a lot of rockets up to 4" and have never used shear pins. I've never had a drag separation or main deployment on a dd flight. If you are using motor ejection, a snug fit will work just fine. Unless you have a very draggy bottom end, drag separation should not be an issue. I would tape the shoulder of the nose cone so you can give the rocket a good shake without it separating and fly it like that. KISS
 
I've been flying a lot of rockets up to 4" and have never used shear pins. I've never had a drag separation or main deployment on a dd flight. If you are using motor ejection, a snug fit will work just fine. Unless you have a very draggy bottom end, drag separation should not be an issue. I would tape the shoulder of the nose cone so you can give the rocket a good shake without it separating and fly it like that. KISS

I have 5" fins and 9-10 ounces of lead in the NC. That is why I am worried.
 
I would tend to start a little lower with the estimated charge than recommended by calculation, and ground test.
Once I get a reliable ground test deployment, I will use that.
It seems folks tend to overestimate the amount required in many cases, which can cause unnecessary shock cord/body tube damage.
 
I would tend to start a little lower with the estimated charge than recommended by calculation, and ground test.
Once I get a reliable ground test deployment, I will use that.
It seems folks tend to overestimate the amount required in many cases, which can cause unnecessary shock cord/body tube damage.

So that brings up another question. Why not have 2 chutes. 1 for body and 1 for NC. The advantage is reduced risk of zippers and less strain on the parts, as it isn't the ineretia of 2 parts going opposite directions, only to be stopped by a cord, rather it is the drag force of the chute slowing down each component. Thoughts guys?
 
So that brings up another question. Why not have 2 chutes. 1 for body and 1 for NC. The advantage is reduced risk of zippers and less strain on the parts, as it isn't the ineretia of 2 parts going opposite directions, only to be stopped by a cord, rather it is the drag force of the chute slowing down each component. Thoughts guys?

nothing wrong with it....
a sideffect is sizing a chute for the nose cone.... and booster.
then tracking them both down afterwards.

I am planning a heavy rocket, but big, so this makes sense... a 4" nosecone would be a pita to recover.
 
Does OR compensate for Base Drag? Base drag will make a short fat rocket more stable than it looks. I know with RockSim there "cheats" that will add it into the simulation of short fat rockets. I have a 4" upscale Estes Fat Boy that RockSim originally told me needed almost a pound of nose weigh! It now flies with none.
5.9FatboyFOTF11EM.jpg
It flies real nice on CTI 38mm 2G 255H400-13A Vmax motors. Don't blink, you will miss it.
 
Does OR compensate for Base Drag? Base drag will make a short fat rocket more stable than it looks. I know with RockSim there "cheats" that will add it into the simulation of short fat rockets. I have a 4" upscale Estes Fat Boy that RockSim originally told me needed almost a pound of nose weigh! It now flies with none.
View attachment 127756
It flies real nice on CTI 38mm 2G 255H400-13A Vmax motors. Don't blink, you will miss it.

I don't know if OR does. I would love to get rid of most of this weight. How can I calculate that? Anyone know?
 
I don't know if OR does. I would love to get rid of most of this weight. How can I calculate that? Anyone know?

What you need to do is check how much the CP shifts with angle of attack. If you have half a caliber of stability after 10-15 degrees, you're golden.

You can get to that by (in the top menu) Analyze -> Component Analysis, and then drag the slider for angle of attack.
 
What you need to do is check how much the CP shifts with angle of attack. If you have half a caliber of stability after 10-15 degrees, you're golden.

You can get to that by (in the top menu) Analyze -> Component Analysis, and then drag the slider for angle of attack.

10 to 15 degrees....... HOlly CRAP....
talk about hooking it off the rod......

3-5 are more reasonable
 
10 to 15 degrees....... HOlly CRAP....
talk about hooking it off the rod......

3-5 are more reasonable

10-15 is a worst-case.

Basically, the reason to have a "margin" of stability is so that when CP shifts a little, the rocket won't immediately go unstable. Squat rockets tend to be more tolerant of small margins because their CP shifts are almost nil; thus the stability at 0 degrees can have a margin of .6 calibers.
 
10-15 is a worst-case.

Basically, the reason to have a "margin" of stability is so that when CP shifts a little, the rocket won't immediately go unstable. Squat rockets tend to be more tolerant of small margins because their CP shifts are almost nil; thus the stability at 0 degrees can have a margin of .6 calibers.

Ok. So I reduced the NC weight to 6 oz and here are the stability #s I get from OR. Just for Poops and giggles, I did the same thing for my Leviathan. Amazing differeance.
Stability comp..JPG

Even at 50 degrees angle of attack, I drop to .536 Cal. It actually gets better as the angle goes above 50 degrees. If .5 cal in worst case angle of attack is safe, looks like I am more than golden at 6 oz. Still a lot, but I get wary of a starting stability of less than .8

Anyone agree or dissagree?
 
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