Will You Be Holding Off on Buying New HP Stuff Now?

[deandome]

Originally posted by WillCarney
recently they (the ATF) made me get the state
permit which I did not really need till just now.
William

In what universe does a FEDERAL agency have the right to ask/tell you to do ANYTHING at the state level?

 

[WillCarney]

Originally posted by Deandome
In what universe does a FEDERAL agency have the right to ask/tell you to do ANYTHING at the state level?

In Illinois, regardless if it's needed.

The ATF agent told me directly that I would not get a renewal
until I got the state permit.

We also have at least one other person in the area I know about
whose ATF permit is currently on hold till he receives the state
permit.


William

 

[KermieD]

I've heard of that as well, that the agent issuing the LEUP insists that the approval is contingent on meeting state and local regulations as well.

 

[AKPilot]

Why? The hobby hasn't ceased to exist.

Just may be another step in the process.

 

[WillCarney]

Originally posted by KermieD
I've heard of that as well, that the agent issuing the LEUP insists that the approval is contingent on meeting state and local regulations as well.

That is true, however Illinois does not regulate rocket motors
that are above this 62.5g issue until it is classified as 1.3.
Illinois only regulates the 1.3 stuff and not the 1.4 stuff. Only till
recently did I need the state permit with any motor I had.

The ATF in Illinois is making the state regulate stuff they don't
want to regardless.

William

 

[KermieD]

Thanks for the clarification, William. I was not aware of that distinction in Illinois. Is it possible that your area ATFE agent isn't up to speed on the state's position and would change his/her tune upon looking at the classification and the state's statute? I'm just curious. I don't have any information to indicate one way or the other.

 

[jadebox]

Originally posted by KermieD
I've heard of that as well, that the agent issuing the LEUP insists that the approval is contingent on meeting state and local regulations as well.

When this question arose during my application, my agent had me sign a note saying that I would comply with state and local regulations. She submitted that with my application and it went through.

-- Roger

 

[Dan]

I'm not holding off on buying new HP stuff, in fact quite the contrary! I'm waiting for my new hybrid motor to be shipped, regulation and hazmat free.



works for me!

 

[pencak]

I want to eventually get into HPR and have been contemplating getting my LEUP if that is necessary. There are loads of people in this hobby here in Arizona. I'm sure I can deal with the storage requirements through a club or a vendor if I can't do it in my garage.

I decided to pursue permitting because I read the regulation information from
https://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main
Did a search on ATFE "rockets" with "rules" and "not open for public comment"
You should come up with document ID ATFE-2006-0040-0001 posted 8/11/06.
"Commerce in Explosives--Hobby Rocket Motors (2004R-7P)"

Anyway, I read it and I recommend that everybody read it before commenting on the subject. Not that you have to, just that this is the most complete description of what is going on right now and it comes from the ATFE.

Their logic is that *all* APCP rocket motors should fall under regulation. They have determined (giving reasoning in the document) as to why motors over 62.5g should be regulated and all smaller motors would be exempt from regulation. The hobby (in their eyes) is being done a favor with the under 62.5g allowance.

It appears that in spite of the current legal battles that ATFE is determined to regulate these larger rocket motors over 62.5g.

It has to do with the development of delivery vehicles with significant range and payload capacity. As for guidance, the current state of hobby electronics is crude (by modern military standards) but with minor advancements these could be overcome by regular people. This is their BIG concern. Guidance electronics will be very difficult for them to regulate, however, things that burn and blow up are their specialty.

So...
I see regulation of hybrids probably coming down the pike also. The government wants to know who has this stuff and regulate access. It mostly revolves around large delivery vehicles, although there was a mention of pipe bombs but that was probably to add weight to their argument with the general public. The real reason they want to regulate HPR is to control access to motor technology that creates reliable large delivery vehicles.

This would probably extend to hybrids and the EX crowd (if it doesn't already apply) also.

Yes, it's a hassle. However, I'm planning on continuing with the HPR aspects of the hobby in spite of this added regulation.

 

[10fttall]

The real reason they want to regulate HPR is to control access to motor technology that creates reliable large delivery vehicles.

How did you come to find out this is the real reason? BTW, large reliable delivery vehicles are already out there, under the name of automobiles. This holds especially true for large 4X4's. Light years of progress in guidance, and a rocket still could not get anywhere near as reliable a delivery vehicle as a good truck/suv/Hummer that unexpectedly runs a gate or barricade.

 

[pencak]

Originally posted by 10fttall
How did you come to find out this is the real reason? BTW, large reliable delivery vehicles are already out there, under the name of automobiles. This holds especially true for large 4X4's. Light years of progress in guidance, and a rocket still could not get anywhere near as reliable a delivery vehicle as a good truck/suv/Hummer that unexpectedly runs a gate or barricade.

People strapped with bombs are pretty reliable delivery vehicles that can get very accurate. Planes, trains and automobiles driven by people are also. What's your point? ATFE regulates this stuff that's why they are concerned about it and want to further regulate it. They specifically address "why large rockets?" in the document. It has to do with the same reason the military uses such devices instead of cars and people strapped with explosives.

Did you read the document? Here's the excerpt.

Quote from the before mentioned ATFE document:
Department Response
The Department has considered the comments regarding the threat
posed by sport rocket motors. For the following reasons, motors with
more than 62.5 grams of propellant present very real security and
public safety risks. Rocket motors containing large amounts of APCP can
power rockets more than 30,000 feet into the air, frequently requiring
high-power rocketry hobbyists to obtain waivers from the Federal
Aviation Administration prior to a launch. These large rocket motors
could also be used to power rockets carrying explosive or noxious
warheads miles downrange into a fixed target. Commenters state that
sport rockets are unguided, not easy to set up, and have a limited
range. These are, in fact, some of the reasons ATF has maintained an
exemption for small sport rockets with 62.5 grams or less of
propellant. However, rockets using more than 62.5 grams of propellant
are capable of stable flight over a fairly long range (one mile or
greater). A willing, determined criminal or terrorist could assemble a
weapon that utilizes a large rocket motor and launch such a device at a
populated area, stadium, or transportation center in a matter of
minutes from a distance sufficient to avoid detection. In addition,
commercially available software can calculate launch parameters to fire
a rocket horizontally or at an angled
trajectory. Rockets can be utilized to hit fixed targets, such as
buildings, or be shot into populated areas with a reasonable degree of
accuracy. Likewise, a rocket being used as a weapon could be launched
from the bed of a truck, thereby making the launch site and any
evidence of the launch mobile. The longer the range of the rocket, the
greater the likelihood that the persons using them for criminal
purposes would succeed in their attack and evade detection and
apprehension. Finally, APCP could be used as an explosive filler in a
pipe bomb or other improvised explosive device. For purposes of
homeland security and the global fight against terrorism, all of these
factors must be taken into account.

 

[m85476585]

A rocket with 62.5g of propellant won't be able to go a mile with any significant payload(explosive?).

Why not make it 500 or 1000g to allow some HPR (easy access)? 500g would be up to J470T, 1000g would be up to a K1100T (from the current AT line).

 

[MitchR]

The above post about terrorism is true, but it's garbage. The fact that people own private computers and have access to the public water systems is far more dangerous than some stupid rocket or explosive.

People can go and visit water towers on their on with out any restrictions in many towns. You can sell stamps at stores privately owned (if you poisoned stamps you could infect thousands before people ever figured out a cause)...people could poison a school cafeteria after getting to know the locals and working there for a while and kill hundreds of children before a diagnosis showed correlation between cafeteria food.

Give me a break. Terrorists are dominating us by making us lose our freedom, by forcing us into oppression and regulations- it divides and seperates from within and makes people think of these things, makes them hide and fear. That's garbage!

Let's get a "water permit" so we can have everyone on file who likes and uses water, and a "chemical lunch-serving" permit to make sure people are safe and reliable lunch workers, or a "terrorist stamp permit" to prevent terrorists from using stamps against us by working at local post offices.

Regardless, my friends and I have been buying more HPR stuff lately than ever.

Have fun flying!

 

[MarkM]

Originally posted by mitchr
The above post about terrorism is true, but it's garbage.

So true. This is a horribly weak argument for a multitude of reasons, most of which were addressed by respondants.

Besides, "true" terrorists would use far more effective weapons which are frighteningly easier to obtain than even a puny H motor.

Just two examples:
1) black market RPGs, but a more on point
2) airline fuel + fertilizer makes a more deadly bomb than any amount of APCP could possibly create. And it's already been used effectively ... twice on US soil: Oklahoma City and the 1993 World Trade Center. Shouldn't the ATF concentrate on regulating fertilizer (ammonium nitrate) because of it's 'potential' use as part of a mixed weapon? That would be a logistical nightmare, but regulating fertilizer makes just as much sense as regulating APCP.

In their reply to the respondants, the ATF even claims that APCP may be used in a terrorist attack by simply lighting a large amount of it to 'detonate' it to bring down a building. This is so perposterous it's beyond belief. We all know what would happen if this was done....a flaming mess that just burns some carpeting or chars a gargage floor.

If the ATF really is so concerned about regulating products used in terrorist events, they need to get a grip on what substances pose actual threats and which ones do not.

 

[KermieD]

I don't have time to edit this stuff. One last time:

THIS FORUM IS NOT THE PLACE TO ARGUE THE RATIONALITY OR LACK THEREOF THAT IS DISPLAYED BY THE ATFE.

IF EVERY THREAD CONTINUES IN THIS MANNER, EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM WILL BE NOT ONLY LOCKED BUT REMOVED FROM THE FORUM.

This is not brain surgery, people.