Whiplash build thread

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BB,

If you are serious about starting with something simple and powerful I will sell you one of my kits at cost. Flys great on F, G, and small H motors. Plus it is easy to build and I provide detailed instructions. PM me and I will work out the details if you want to do this. Here are a couple of photos.
DSC_2786.jpgDSC_2787.jpgDSC_2771.jpg
 
Wow, thanks all.
Yes, stubbornness is one of my traits. You could think of me as an old white lightning motor. :dark:
Need to turn into a Cesaroni... :rofl:
 
blackbrandt said:
Wow, thanks all.
Yes, stubbornness is one of my traits. You could think of me as an old white lightning motor. :dark:
Need to turn into a Cesaroni... :rofl:
Click to expand...

More like an Estes 1/4A mixed with the Chicken Hawk from the old Foghorn Leghorn cartoons! :wink: :grin:
 
blackbrandt said:
Alright.

Ever since I read these posts, I know that I should now go, find a MPR (and baby HPR) kit. Fly that. Then, try DD. Then, pick up this again, and fly it.
Is this what I should be getting from these posts?
Click to expand...

I'd recommend the PML Callisto. It flies well on F motors on up, uses quantum tube for the airframe, G 10 for the fins, and sells for under 60 dollars. Due to it's use of quantum tube and G10, it's waterproof, and very durable. The only aftermarket parts you would need to bring it up to current standards are rail buttons, and parachute swivels.
Recently, I lost mine in a corn field, but found it at the next months launch. I wiped it down, cleaned the motor casing, reloaded it, and it flew perfectly.
 
I think that would be good, only it is probably good to use PML's urethane rail guides instead of buttons so you can place the forward one in places where a button would interfere with the piston inside the airframe.
 
PML kits are a fine suggestion. There are a lot of "political" views on quantum tube. I've heard several people say they hate it because it shrinks with temperature at a different rate than the phenolic of the piston. I have two PML rockets, the Black Brant VB and the D-Tomahawk, and I absolutely love them. Once I got the piston sanded right, I never have any problem with them. They are tough and waterproof and so quick to prep. They will also give a good opportunity to practice epoxy skills. The D-Tomahawk in fact was my L1 rocket. I've launched it 26 times on everything from a G64 (with the 29-38 adapter) to an I284. I've launched the BBVB (with the 38mm option) 21 times from a G64 to an I161.

Other suggestions are the larger Aerotech kits. I've modified a Barracuda to remove the engine clip and replaced it with a slimline retainer, so that I can use longer motors. Achieved 3300' with an H128. I've also modified (much more heavily of course) an Aerotech Mirage for 38mm and dual deploy. Achieved 3600' on a home-made motor.

I think the overall point is there there are several options for kits that can span that MPR to HPR range with little to no modification. You can learn standard, trusted build techniques and see standard designs. Then you can broaden/customize from there, rather than trying to start completely from scratch with 20 different problems you have to solve for the first time.

David

RadManCF said:
I'd recommend the PML Callisto. It flies well on F motors on up, uses quantum tube for the airframe, G 10 for the fins, and sells for under 60 dollars. Due to it's use of quantum tube and G10, it's waterproof, and very durable. The only aftermarket parts you would need to bring it up to current standards are rail buttons, and parachute swivels.
Recently, I lost mine in a corn field, but found it at the next months launch. I wiped it down, cleaned the motor casing, reloaded it, and it flew perfectly.
Click to expand...
 
To be honest I still haven't made it through this entire thread (and the one before it). But let me try to summarize what we recommend to Matt:

1) start with a less ambitious kit to learn standard designs, standard building techniques, and get experience with higher power motors. work up to high power, electronics, staging.
2) Work on your build / construction techniques. Never paint pieces before you glue them. Use the proper adhesive for the job: Wood glue (not white glue) for any combination of wood/paper/cardboard, CA for plastic, and Epoxy (with the appropriate filler/fibers for the job) for fillets, dissimilar materials, hardware, and pretty much anything else.
3) work on your design. An H399/410 is a kicker of a motor. Your booster/sustainer joint is your weak spot. Your current design will probably fail. I'd highly suggest you talk to Dave Morey, he has a lot of staging experience. I believe he uses a nice design with rods.
4) work on your recessed motor arrangement. Having the motor 3" up into the tube is not a good idea. In order to pass the cert, your rocket has to be fliable again without any repairs. If your tube is all burned up, it won't pass.
5) I'd also check all your math. The weights you have sent me seem low based on your design and I find them hard to believe. Have you accounted for the weight of the altimeter, wiring, batteries, switches, charges, shock cord, motor casings, chutes, etc.
6) you are working with too many variables and you change your mind too much. Nail down some design points. Pick your weights and sizes, and then pick your motors. Or the other way around. Pick your electronics. Decide some things, and then move on to the next decision. Don't keep re-envisioning the whole thing.

Anything else I missed? Any other advice you guys gave that you feel is really critical?

David
 
blackbrant's mentor said:
Anything else I missed? Any other advice you guys gave that you feel is really critical?
Click to expand...

Later, when you get back to the multistage flight, I'd recommend a systematic testing approach over a couple of flights.

1) Fly the sustainer as a standalone rocket, to test it's stability and recovery system.
2) Fly the whole stack, but with a really small motor in the upper stage. For the booster, use a rather short burning motor (e.g. blue thunder) and keep the impulse low. The rocket should be rather low and visibly when separation and upper stage ignition happens, but don't underpower the booster.
3) First "real" test flight with a significant motor in the sustainer. Have fun.

The idea behind these steps, is to keep the rocket as harmless and simple as possible while certain characteristics are being tested.

Reinhard
 
Quaranta said:
I have the PML Patriot and the PML AGM-256 Pit Bull. I built both w/o the piston deploy. Just didn't want the extra "complexity". Threw in a nomex blanket and flew.
Click to expand...

Making a burrito every flight is more complex than making a piston once. Plus there is the benefit of using less black powder. You can actually build up a surprising store of black powder just by flying 29 hpr-style and 38mm motors and using half the bp.
 
As far as starting with MPR and HPR G motors, thats how I did it. IN a few months I went from flying Large Estes kits to flying F and G motors at every launch I went to. I started with my Stealth I tihnk, and then went for my Junior Level One with my LOF Fantom. By the time I had certified, my Fantom has already flown on several HPR G motors, so I was calm, cool, and collected about the entire thing. I would suggest you get some experience under your belt. A lot of the people think that that is the way to go, and I can vouch for that from personal experience. In talking with some people who have seen this thread, who shall remain anonymous, they said that I did it the right way. Now that might not be what everybody thinks is the right way, but it is probably the route to take with the least amount of failures an most amount of learning. And when it comes time to cert, you'll know what you are going into, as well as what you could do different or improve upon. Fly a few MPR motors, then a few HPR G motors, then go for a full HPR motor. THats my advice.
 
Wow! This thread took a turn for the better today! I just voted it 5 stars to try to counteract all the ne star votes!
 
LOC Weasel on an E18/F24/G64. Simple, cheap and straightforward build that can used with an altimeter for altitude recording and/or single deploy to learn the basics of electronics.
 
The LOC weasel was my first mid-power rocket and what got me into composite motors. Also if you really want to try a 2 stage start by getting a Estes kit or a rip-roar. You wont have to worry about electronics with the black powder lighting the upper stage. Good luck and hope for the best for you.
 
CarVac said:
I think that would be good, only it is probably good to use PML's urethane rail guides instead of buttons so you can place the forward one in places where a button would interfere with the piston inside the airframe.
Click to expand...

I used standard buttons with t nuts, and haven't had any trouble with the piston being fouled. If the foward rail button is placed about halfway up the tube, there is still plenty of room for the piston to work.
 
Reinhard said:
Later, when you get back to the multistage flight, I'd recommend a systematic testing approach over a couple of flights.

1) Fly the sustainer as a standalone rocket, to test it's stability and recovery system.
2) Fly the whole stack, but with a really small motor in the upper stage. For the booster, use a rather short burning motor (e.g. blue thunder) and keep the impulse low. The rocket should be rather low and visibly when separation and upper stage ignition happens, but don't underpower the booster.
3) First "real" test flight with a significant motor in the sustainer. Have fun.

The idea behind these steps, is to keep the rocket as harmless and simple as possible while certain characteristics are being tested.

Reinhard
Click to expand...

One thing to add. Since you plan to use the raven altimeter, you can use the simulated test flight feature to run ground tests. This would prevent staging failures due to faulty wiring.
 
So I have decided to get a kit. The only problem is that there are SO MANY KITS!
I have come to a few choices:
https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ProductDetail.aspx?product=3053
jg-darkstarjr.png



This new fiberglass dual deployment rocket features a 38mm motor mount, making it a great L1 or L2 certification kit. Standing nearly five feet tall and measuring 2.1" in diameter, it weighs just 4.5 pounds and can be flown on motors from H through J impulse. This Kit Includes
  • 2.1" x 31" fiberglass booster
  • 2.1" x 16" fiberglass payload section
  • 2.1" x 1" fiberglass vent band
  • 7.2" long fiberglass coupler
  • 5-1 filament fiberglass wound nose cone
  • 3/32" G10 fiberglass fins
  • 2 centering rings
  • 3 fiberglass coupler bulk plates
  • 2 fiberglass airframe bulk plates
  • 38mm fiberglass motor mount
  • 3 welded eyebolts
  • 3 quick links
  • Nuts, washers, Rivets,sheer pins

There is the LOC Phantom, or LOC Weasel, or the PML callisto.

That darkstar just looks so freakin' fancy!
And aksrockets said he got it for $80 at the last Black Saturday sale. Only $80 for a full fiberglass kit!!!

Gosh, decisions!!!




 
Last edited:
BB...why dont you consider smaller rockets to start? The knowledge you gain with Estes/Semroc/Centuei Repro kits is invaluable. Seems you want to run a marathon before you learn to walk. All the adult here are trying to tell you this. this knowledge could lead you away from likely dangerous situations. Be careful and smart. Not hardhearded. They are trying to teach you to take steps in you growth within this hobby. It could be dangerous if you are not trained the dangers. I have been in this hobby over 45 years and just now learn dual deployment and other things. Get the boat in the water before you drop the oars in.

Be safe have a great day

I see it difficult you haven't yet become banned here.
 
I personally love my Fantom, but it went OOP. I would say get a LOC IV. In all honesty though, you should fly what you like. Just something that will survive, preferably.
 
I have built well over 25 semroc and estes kits. 13, 18, and 24mm motor mounts. I am just starting to get bored with these tiny rockets. I need more power. So I decided to builld Whiplash. I have been told to build a kit first now, so I came up with these options...
Why do you think I should be banned?
 
I don't want you to be banned. Everyone on this forum, me included, wants to see you succeed. We, or at least I, just want to see you learn as much as possible and cause as little frustration as possible. Imagine how upset someone would be if they lost their brand new two stage rocket due to some sort of failure. I would be crying, in all honesty.
 
So would you recommend the Darkstar or something else? I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really want a Fiberglass kit.

Matt
 
Im with Chadrog. If you want to start with fg, that might be a good place to start. My Darkstar is pretty nice though... ;)
 
The reason many people fail instead of succeed is that they trade what they want most for what they want at the moment.
 
I'd much rather mess up a $40 jart than a $130 darkstar jr. Of course if they are on sale, I'll be getting one.
 
In my opinion, fiberglass is a bad idea, for you -- it encourages bad habits, because it's a LOT more tolerant of abuse.

That means that if your recovery kills are poor, the rocket doesn't force you to learn to solve your problems. Instead, it encourages you to continue on, and not worry about it.

Personally, I think you should be looking at cardboard -- built right, and flown right, they'll last a long time.

-Kevin
 
The Jart is a cool little bird but I'd build at least one cardboard kit first. There is always time for fiberglass later.
 

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