Vulcan Rocket Motors?

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If I recall correctly, Scott was more of a consultant for Estes.

Wow, how did I miss this thread? I always heard the Estes Dark Star F62 motors (and the Gs that never came out) were essentially Vulcan Smokey Sams. I had heard that Dixon had a hand in those.

I just got some killer old '92-'93 HPR mags from Eric Cayemberg and there are pics of everything from Vulcan Hellfires to Low Smokes and plenty of Silver Streaks, lest we forget those! JCato's Nike Smoke (referenced above) is in there too! Nike Tomahawk too...what a beaut that was! I spoke with Rocketflite (Mr. Dyben) and he said he would bring the SS's back if it wasn't for $$$ and regs.
 
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Wow, how did I miss this thread? I always heard the Estes Dark Star F62 motors (and the Gs that never came out) were essentially Vulcan Smokey Sams. I had heard that Dixon had a hand in those.

I just got some killer old '92-'93 HPR mags from Eric Cayemberg and there are pics of everything from Vulcan Hellfires to Low Smokes and plenty of Silver Streaks, lest we forget those! JCato's Nike Smoke (referenced above) is in there too! Nike Tomahawk too...what a beaut that was! I spoke with Rocketflite (Mr. Dyben) and he said he would bring the SS's back if it wasn't for $$$ and regs.

Hey Marcus,

Glad you're enjoying the HPR mags! Love the oldies!

In my experience, the aged Vulcans work just as well today as they did back then. Have flown several of 29's and 38's, both low smoke and Smoky Sam. Have not yet burned my 54's, or my 75mm Baby M single use...said to be one of the first M motors made...a brother to the first M flown at an LDRS...6 in 1987 I believe, the first LDRS at Hartsel, CO (and/or not Medina, OH for that matter). Looking forward to lighting the old wick one of these days!

-Eric-
 
<snip>

I just got some killer old '92-'93 HPR mags from Eric Cayemberg and there are pics of everything from Vulcan Hellfires to Low Smokes and plenty of Silver Streaks, lest we forget those! JCato's Nike Smoke (referenced above) is in there too! Nike Tomahawk too...what a beaut that was!

Thank you for the compliment. Since you broached the issue, I was rummaging around and found a few pix of these 'old time' vehicles. The original post re: the Nike Smoke (N-S) was posted here:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?53618-Nike-Smoke&p=529380#post529380

... and here's a few more from LDRS 11 - the first was setting up on the pad (that's Earl Cagle on the left and (local flyer and travel companion) Tom Binford on the right with his back to the camera):

jhc_nike-smoke B2 on the pad - LDRS11.jpg

... and then (grimace) 5 minutes later:

jhc_NS B2 flight aftermath - LDRS11.jpg

As to the Nike Tomahawk (N-T), here's a general view (in front of the 'VAB' (Vehicle Assembly Building), which was an old 'packhouse' that my great grandparents built about a century ago - but in the 90's was where a lot of rockets got built). The 'Nike' here is what I called a 'Nike Sport' - dimensionally correct, but simply profile fins (1/8" G-10 'slabs', not scale thicknesses) and it didn't have the flare on the forward end for the thrust face. The Smoke (above) was true-to-scale in every particular - including having the forward end flare as part of the main airframe and not the nose cone - the separation plane being correct with the real prototype (which is really good as far as zipper prevention). After the crash of the true scale Smoke, I simply put together a simple booster and never rebuilt the true scale Nike. But, here's the N-T at any rate (this was after some additional (scale) painting and decals on the payload bay):

jhc_nike-tomahawk.jpg

... and here's setting up for it's maiden flight (with TRA Prefect Bob Gennrich's son assisting here at our local field) - prior to the completion of the paint job (compare the red payload section with the above photo):

jhc_NT on the pad2 - maiden flight.jpg

{edit: 3-14: The principle of this multi-stage approach was to utilize drag-separation of the Nike - the interstage had 4 carbon arrow shafts (about 10" long) that mated with some aluminum tubes in the Tomahawk. Tomahawk ignition was via an onboard timer - set to occur approx 2-3 seconds after Nike burnout. Separation and ignition worked without incident on the 4 flights the 'stack' made.}

... and then the liftoff (about twilight that day and I needed to 'tweak' the contrast to remove the milkiness (that's what happens with underexposure with silver based film - something most people today have no knowledge of :) ):

jhc_NT maiden J800 - liftoff2.jpg

This was a J-800 Blue Thunder to an H-something (can't remember, but the flight was mainly to proof out staging and sustainer ignition electronics - I didn't want it to go all that high). Upon Nike burnout, the booster simply dropped away and arced over until the pyro delay ejected the chute - the Tomahawk coasted quite nicely for the 2-3 seconds until ignition occurred. I still remember the feeling when I saw the Tomahawk 'come to life' - it was quite nice. (Notice how far the sparks from that Blue Thunder spread from the pad - particularly on the right - something the low light helped delineate). It flew a year or two later (after a few more local flights) in Argonia on a K-1100 to a J-100 and the Tomahawk 'got lost' (got the Nike booster back OK). Ross Dunton of Magnum returned the Tomahawk the following spring (IIRC), but there wasn't much to return - just the main body (silver portion) of the Tomahawk. The parachute (the 'Auburn' chute - go check out my threads over in Recovery - see here:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...Ringsail-Parachute-Canopy&p=751101#post751101 )

... the payload bay and nose cone never to be seen to this day. That wouldn't happen today with a GPS onboard.

Finally, here's a quick stack of a planned T-N-T (Taurus-Nike-Tomahawk), to get a feel for what that would be like (this simply setting the N-T into a length of PML 7.67" tube). Never got any farther than that - but would be an interesting project:

jhc_TNT stackup.jpg

I still entertain plans to rebuild the true-to-scale Nike booster - including bolt-on, removeable fins per the real prototype (scale bolts in the scale locations) - with the mounting such that both the classic double wedge fins (N-T or T-N-T - 4x3 bolt pattern) or the modified double wedge fins (N-S - 2x5 bolt pattern) could be mounted. I believe the mounting bolt pattern would allow both on the same mount without any interference between the two patterns.

{edit:3-12 - 2:11am EDT}:
If I ever rebuild the Tomahawk, I'm considering using some of that 15ft piece of Titanium tubing (3" dia x 0.021" wall) that I got at the Boeing Surplus Sales yard there in Wichita - when the N-T flew in Argonia. Might as well go 'whole hog'.

-- john.
 
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Hey Marcus,

Glad you're enjoying the HPR mags! Love the oldies!

In my experience, the aged Vulcans work just as well today as they did back then. Have flown several of 29's and 38's, both low smoke and Smoky Sam. Have not yet burned my 54's, or my 75mm Baby M single use...said to be one of the first M motors made...a brother to the first M flown at an LDRS...6 in 1987 I believe, the first LDRS at Hartsel, CO (and/or not Medina, OH for that matter). Looking forward to lighting the old wick one of these days!

-Eric-

Plllleeeaaaassseeeeee take pictures of these...for science.

It'd be really cool to see labels (if there are any), nozzles, cores (if visible). Doubt it's anything spectacular but the nostalgia appeals to me.

What the hell else do you have in that box?
 
If I recall the video came out about the same time as the fire in Franks garage. That was a big ole $hitstorm time with the feds


IIRC the fire in Kosdon's garage happened years after the video (video was around 1992-1993).

The fire was suspicious, occurring when nobody was there. This was the SAME garage that the most infamous person in this hobby (who shall not be named) had previously been caught red-handed stealing rocket engine making equipment supplies out of when Frank returned home and punched him.

As to Dixon, he's a traitor to the hobby due to that rigged anti-reload video. He could make the best motors in the world and I would never do any business with him.

- George Gassaway
 
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I've flown both the Darkstars and the Smokey Sam motors. There was very little difference between the exhaust flame/smoke. I still have a few of the Darkstars waiting to be lit. I'll take videos when I do. ( I'm not sure, but I may have one last H100 hiding in my "special stash" - I'll have to check.

Take care,

Duane
 
Thank you for the compliment. Since you broached the issue, I was rummaging around and found a few pix of these 'old time' vehicles....

Awesome, John! I'll take all the "old time" photos you got! Great shots and information. The link to the Nike Smoke thread is also appreciated.

Great to connect with a legend like yourself--I've seen your name since my first HPR mags in the mid-nineties. Crazy to see Earl Cagle and Tom Binford in those shots too...Tom has definitely mentored me along the way, teaching me the finer points of clustering and thermalite! I used to get a new .39 Productions video every Christmas. Still have them stashed away.


Hey Marcus,

Glad you're enjoying the HPR mags! Love the oldies!

In my experience, the aged Vulcans work just as well today as they did back then. Have flown several of 29's and 38's, both low smoke and Smoky Sam. Have not yet burned my 54's, or my 75mm Baby M single use...said to be one of the first M motors made...a brother to the first M flown at an LDRS...6 in 1987 I believe, the first LDRS at Hartsel, CO (and/or not Medina, OH for that matter). Looking forward to lighting the old wick one of these days!

-Eric-

Dude, I'm loving the mags!! Such great stuff....makes me want to build a LOC Esoteric. And oh, I'll take some of those old Vulcan motors off your hands if you ever need help getting rid of them! What a stash that must be.
 
Plllleeeaaaassseeeeee take pictures of these...for science.

It'd be really cool to see labels (if there are any), nozzles, cores (if visible). Doubt it's anything spectacular but the nostalgia appeals to me.

What the hell else do you have in that box?

I wholeheartedly concur!!!!
 
I've flown both the Darkstars and the Smokey Sam motors. There was very little difference between the exhaust flame/smoke. I still have a few of the Darkstars waiting to be lit. I'll take videos when I do. ( I'm not sure, but I may have one last H100 hiding in my "special stash" - I'll have to check.

Take care,

Duane

As Dan mentioned, please take as many pictures of these - both static and dynamic :). For science, for nostalgia, you name it.....
 
Plllleeeaaaassseeeeee take pictures of these...for science.

It'd be really cool to see labels (if there are any), nozzles, cores (if visible). Doubt it's anything spectacular but the nostalgia appeals to me.

pyrobob said:
I wholeheartedly concur!!!!

pyrobob said:
As Dan mentioned, please take as many pictures of these - both static and dynamic . For science, for nostalgia, you name it.....

I'll see if I can contribute to the 'collective memory' here -- was looking over my inventory and these are some of the Vulcan's I've got in the magazine:

1 - H80
7 - H100 (all Smokey Sam, I believe)
2 - H260
1 - I150
6 - I160HF
2 - J250HF

(and, the aforementioned L750HF)

... and an interesting little motor - a J85 - a 'wired end-burner' that's supposed to have something like a 15 second burn - non-standard case: 2-1/4" (57mm) dia.

I'll get the camera out there and photo a few (all?) here in a week or so (got some things needing attending to this week).

-- john.
 
I'll see if I can contribute to the 'collective memory' here -- was looking over my inventory and these are some of the Vulcan's I've got in the magazine:

1 - H80
7 - H100 (all Smokey Sam, I believe)
2 - H260
1 - I150
6 - I160HF
2 - J250HF

(and, the aforementioned L750HF)

... and an interesting little motor - a J85 - a 'wired end-burner' that's supposed to have something like a 15 second burn - non-standard case: 2-1/4" (57mm) dia.

I'll get the camera out there and photo a few (all?) here in a week or so (got some things needing attending to this week).

-- john.

Super cool. Yes, please document all of them!!! I totally wish I had a chance to own and fly Vulcan's and some RocketFlite's. It will serve vicariously!
 
I need to document my collection / take photos. Some Vulcan, older Aerotech, Propulsion Industries, Ellis Mt, a Crown.

FSI, MPC, older Estes, Century in BP.
 
Awesome, John! I'll take all the "old time" photos you got! Great shots and information. The link to the Nike Smoke thread is also appreciated.

Marcus, I have some more photos of some of these 'times' - but this thread is more about Vulcan and doesn't need to be hijacked by me on this topic. Maybe I can start a thread on some of my 'Nike work' here in a bit (need to get that Ringsail parachute thread finished first, tho - that's first priority). However, I might could contribute to the knowledge- and experience-base on this particular series of vehicles. (Note: I did go back and edit a few items in my post, along with adding a little bit, so you might want to 're-view' it.)

marcusSRG said:
Great to connect with a legend like yourself--I've seen your name since my first HPR mags in the mid-nineties. Crazy to see Earl Cagle and Tom Binford in those shots too...Tom has definitely mentored me along the way, teaching me the finer points of clustering and thermalite! I used to get a new .39 Productions video every Christmas. Still have them stashed away.

"Legend"?? Not so sure about that -- 'Notorious' may be more like it - due to.... well.... just ask around and I'm sure you'll get all kinds of (interesting??) stories (I'm no longer motivated to try to keep the record straight). But, I thank you for using the more noble term. I doubt there could be one who is *less* interested in either title - good or bad -- unless it would be Scott Dixon. Neither of us really preferred the 'limelight'. Those were some interesting days, to be sure -- some sad and some not.

- - - - - -

I notice your avatar has an individual playing a tenor (I assume this is you - noticing your interest in music.) I'm an alto and bari fellow myself - from about 3rd grade (including some honors programs in high school - and then in the orchestra (playing the cello part on the bari - if you can believe it) with some of the local college drama programs). Always liked jazz and improv - but haven't done much in recent years - kind of would like to get back 'in the swing' of things. I miss performing.

-- john.
 
Super cool. Yes, please document all of them!!! I totally wish I had a chance to own and fly Vulcan's and some RocketFlite's. It will serve vicariously!

Well, you never know what the future may bring -- it's unlikely I would ever fly all these motors (and I sealed both ends of the motors with aluminum tape, so they should 'age' well (i.e innocuously)) - so, who knows, you may have a chance even yet.

-- john.
 
I have some Vulcan motors in my collection.

While most folks flew Vulcan HPR motors (H & up) I bought the smaller, model rocket-size motors (E, F, G).

The first Vulcan motors I purchased were from Ramona Dixon at LDRS-8.

I still have the motors. Here's a picture of them:

Vulcan 01.jpg

(Top to bottom): E26-10 (24mm), E55-10SS (29mm) and E60-10 (29mm)

Each cost $8.00 back in 1989.

Vulcan had few of it's motors certified by the NAR. I think the E26 was the only 'model rocket' motor Vulcan had certified.
 
I would later pick up some more Vulcan motors in 1990.

These used the 'Tracer-II' red flame propellant.
'Tracer-II' was formally known as 'Hellfire' propellant.

Vulcan 02.jpg

Top to bottom: E25-5, F50-7 & G80-10.

All of these motors are 29mm in diameter.
 
For a brief period of time in the late 1990s Estes sold composite motors through their North Coast Rocketry (By Estes) product line.
These were very nice 29mm molded case motors.

Only the F62-4 and F62-6 motors were released.
A G70 motor was developed but it was never released.

Vulcan made the propellant for these motors.
The propellant was shipped to Estes where the Dark Star motors were assembled and packaged.

NCRBE F62-4 Dark Star motor 01.jpg
 
Here's a picture of a NCRBE G70-10 Dark Star motor next to a G62-6 motor.

I was told the Vulcan propellant was cut into equal length Bates grains.
Two of these grains were used for the F62 motors.
Three grains for the G70 motors.
There was talk of a single=grain 'E' motor but I don't know if any were made.

NCRBE G70-10 & F62-6 motors.jpg


There was also an F62-9 motor which was to be used in a never-released kit called the Orbit. The Orbit looked much like a stretched Enerjet 1340/Maniac/Eliminator.
The Orbit would have a stronger body tube and be weighted down to keep it's velocity below Mach 1.
This kit was to be part of a Starter-Set (Orbit, Launch Controller, Launch Pad but no motors) which would retail for $49.99.
The Orbit Starter Set was never released.

At NARAM-42 in Colorado, I flew a modified Estes Maniac kit with an F62-9 Dark Star motor (It had been NAR cetified).
That thing took off like a rocket! :wink:
A second or two later the rocket suffered structural failure. :facepalm:

Here's the Maniac before launch:

N42-048 Super Maniac.jpg

The F62 Dark Star motors were an excellent product. Too bad they didn't last long.

View attachment 257874
 
Somewhere I have a couple packages of the NCR motors with inert or no propellant that where made for trade shows.

M
 
Well, you never know what the future may bring -- it's unlikely I would ever fly all these motors (and I sealed both ends of the motors with aluminum tape, so they should 'age' well (i.e innocuously)) - so, who knows, you may have a chance even yet.

-- john.

Consider me first in line.....
 
I have some Vulcan motors in my collection.

While most folks flew Vulcan HPR motors (H & up) I bought the smaller, model rocket-size motors (E, F, G).

The first Vulcan motors I purchased were from Ramona Dixon at LDRS-8.

I still have the motors. Here's a picture of them:

View attachment 257868

(Top to bottom): E26-10 (24mm), E55-10SS (29mm) and E60-10 (29mm)

Each cost $8.00 back in 1989.

Vulcan had few of it's motors certified by the NAR. I think the E26 was the only 'model rocket' motor Vulcan had certified.

Really cool. Did Vulcan go straight to market or did they have a retail network? I'm thinking Ross Dunton at Magnum had some.
 
Here's a picture of a NCRBE G70-10 Dark Star motor next to a G62-6 motor.

I was told the Vulcan propellant was cut into equal length Bates grains.
Two of these grains were used for the F62 motors.
Three grains for the G70 motors.
There was talk of a single=grain 'E' motor but I don't know if any were made.

View attachment 257872


There was also an F62-9 motor which was to be used in a never-released kit called the Orbit. The Orbit looked much like a stretched Enerjet 1340/Maniac/Eliminator.
The Orbit would have a stronger body tube and be weighted down to keep it's velocity below Mach 1.
This kit was to be part of a Starter-Set (Orbit, Launch Controller, Launch Pad but no motors) which would retail for $49.99.
The Orbit Starter Set was never released.

At NARAM-42 in Colorado, I flew a modified Estes Maniac kit with an F62-9 Dark Star motor (It had been NAR cetified).
That thing took off like a rocket! :wink:
A second or two later the rocket suffered structural failure. :facepalm:

Here's the Maniac before launch:

View attachment 257873

The F62 Dark Star motors were an excellent product. Too bad they didn't last long.

View attachment 257874

Any idea why the motors were discontinued? Same for the kits?
 
One small detail left out;
The Dark star motors were actually 28.5 mm not 29 mm.
The NC line motor mounts were under sized because of this.
You had to throw away the supplied motor tube if you wanted to fly other motors in them.


JD

For a brief period of time in the late 1990s Estes sold composite motors through their North Coast Rocketry (By Estes) product line.
These were very nice 29mm molded case motors.

Only the F62-4 and F62-6 motors were released.
A G70 motor was developed but it was never released.

Vulcan made the propellant for these motors.
The propellant was shipped to Estes where the Dark Star motors were assembled and packaged.

View attachment 257871
 
I remember the Estes motors. I never knew they were Vulcans. Great tidbit of history.
 
One small detail left out;
The Dark star motors were actually 28.5 mm not 29 mm.
The NC line motor mounts were under sized because of this.
You had to throw away the supplied motor tube if you wanted to fly other motors in them.


JD

I recall this as well. I wonder what drove this deviation?
 

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