Vulcan Rocket Motors?

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pyrobob

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So, I've got the brisket on the smoker which is on cruise control at the moment, and something totally random came to me: Who or what was the story behind Vulcan rocket motors? My first exposure to Vulcan was a chance encounter with High Power Rocketry Magazine, the Fall 1993 edition seen here: https://www.buyrocketmotors.com/blog/the-magazine-that-started-it-all/. During that time I read about the L750 Smoky Sams and some H100 Smoky Sams (did i get that right?). I believe they also had a "Hellfire" propellant type as well. They were all single use if I'm not mistaking. I got a chance to see only a handful fly and regret I never had the opportunity to pick any up and try out, or collect for that matter.

Anyhow, these guys are long gone now but I don't know a great deal about them such as who they were, how broad their motor offerings were beyond the motors shown above, why they stopped, etc. I seem to recall they were out of Colorado but I could be completely mistaken there... Anybody have the lowdown?
 
Scott Dixon was Vulcan, and like Aerotech when I came into the hobby in the late 80's he also had commercial and gubmint contracts. The first 10 L750's were Hellfire, comparable to Redline. They were burning off nozzles so he had to "kool" them down, hence the Smokey Sam. The H100's were also first Hellfire and were changed the SS for the same reason. I fired one of the Hellfire L750's, it was a great flight with no issues. When reloads came along, and ATF that pretty nailed the lid on Vulcan's coffin. He had single use motors from E thru L. Great motor line, K500 Hellfire was an awesome motor!!!
 
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Those were the good old days!

My L1 Cert was on a Vulcan H 115-7 SS.
I put it in my little PML Phobos it went about 4k.
I never saw it land but, they gave me the cert as it was all together.
It was later found and returned the next day by another flyer.

I've also flown: the H 300 HF , H 142 LS , G 200, F 80, G 80 and a couple H 100's.
AT countered with an H 124 FBJ they were cool as well!


JD
 
Scott Dixon was Vulcan, and like Aerotech when I came into the hobby in the late 80's he also had commercial and gubmint contracts. The first 10 L750's were Hellfire, comparable to Redline. They were burning off nozzles so he had to "kool" them down, hence the Smokey Sam. The H100's were also first Hellfire and were changed the SS for the same reason. I fired one of the Hellfire L750's, it was a great flight with no issues. When reloads came along, and ATF that pretty nailed the lid on Vulcan's coffin. He had single use motors from E thru L. Great motor line, K500 Hellfire was an awesome motor!!!

Awe yes, the K500. Pretty sure I have an Earl Cagle VHS video of some of these. I seem to recall some pretty clear mach diamonds.

Refresh my memory, back then when reloads came out, we're they simply much cheaper than single use or was it a matter of navigating ATF/DOT regulations that were the culprit. Maybe both?
 
Those were the good old days!

My L1 Cert was on a Vulcan H 115-7 SS.
I put it in my little PML Phobos it went about 4k.
I never saw it land but, they gave me the cert as it was all together.
It was later found and returned the next day by another flyer.

I've also flown: the H 300 HF , H 142 LS , G 200, F 80, G 80 and a couple H 100's.
AT countered with an H 124 FBJ they were cool as well!


JD

An H300 and G200 single use? Sweet!
 
Reloads came years before regulation, so price was the big factor. I paid 300$ for the L750, you could buy an M1419(at this time) for the same price.
 
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Reloads came years before regulation, so price was the big factor. I paid 300$ for the L750, you could by an M1419(at this time) for the same price.

Wow! Never would have guessed $300 for the L750, maybe that's why I never bought one.... I seem to recall K550 reloads were ~$80 back in the mid 90's. I bought a few out of Ross Dunton's Magnum truck in Argonia one year. Sound about right?
 
Vulcan did come out with reloads and they had problems and were not marketed.
So Vulcan did a video of a box of AT reload burning to show how dangerous reload kits are.
Boom
It has been said there was a pound of BP added to the box to impress the ATF.
The name Vulcan became a curse after that
 
Vulcan did come out with reloads and they had problems and were not marketed.
So Vulcan did a video of a box of AT reload burning to show how dangerous reload kits are.
Boom
It has been said there was a pound of BP added to the box to impress the ATF.
The name Vulcan became a curse after that

More to that story than I knew :p What I read about the video is the motors were ignited at the nozzle so they did major chuffing, didn't know about the BP part...
 
Vulcan did come out with reloads and they had problems and were not marketed.
So Vulcan did a video of a box of AT reload burning to show how dangerous reload kits are.
Boom
It has been said there was a pound of BP added to the box to impress the ATF.
The name Vulcan became a curse after that

Was wondering when this was going to be brought up if my memory serves... I heard the same thing as well. A lack of professionalism it seems...
 
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More to that story than I knew :p What I read about the video is the motors were ignited at the nozzle so they did major chuffing, didn't know about the BP part...

I have no clue where I heard that from and can't attest that was in fact the case, but many years ago that was the story that was being passed around.

Who or where can this infamous video be found?????
 
I have no clue where I heard that from and can't attest that was in fact the case, but many years ago that was the story that was being passed around.

Who or where can this infamous video be found?????

That I don't know. For all I know there's only one copy and that went to ATF. However, I would imagine there's others...somewhere...a phone call to Scott Dixon might scare one up....but I doubt it...
 
Wasn't there more to the story as to why Vulcan packed it in for Hobby rocketry?
Like, he didn't want to go through all the extra ATFE and DOT paperwork to get his motors properly certified?


JD

Vulcan did come out with reloads and they had problems and were not marketed.
So Vulcan did a video of a box of AT reload burning to show how dangerous reload kits are.
Boom
It has been said there was a pound of BP added to the box to impress the ATF.
The name Vulcan became a curse after that
 
...The first 10 L750's were Hellfire, comparable to Redline. They were burning off nozzles so he had to "kool" them down, hence the Smokey Sam. ...

Not quite right -- the first Vulcan motors were low smoke (which included the L750 - they were flying them as far back as LDRS 8 or 9 up in Hartsel, IIRC) - and the Smokey Sam followed (and this was basically just a 'special effects' motor). The Hellfire propellant was the latest (or last) formulation that did, indeed, have some burn-through issues and that (substituting Smokey Sam) was the (ready) solution to the problems with the H100, but Hellfire was pre-dated by both the (original) low smoke and Smokey Sam. Not that it matters that much, but the L750 may have been the only motor produced in all three propellant formulations.

When I picked up my (custom delay) L750 Hellfire there in Colorado Springs back on the way to LDRS 11, Scott told me that it was the first Hellfire 750 made. Planned for my Nike-Smoke (see pictures elsewhere out here), the 4 outboard AT H 125's lit and the 750 didn't - and, with no electronics (not very common back then), the 4 H's lofted it probably 500-800 feet, nosed over and pretty much self-destructed on impact (I might have salvaged the fins). Lesson learned here: don't use special ignition schemes (an electric match with a 'bag' of about a dozen BKNO3 pellets) without proofing it on the ground first - no matter how 'precious' those BKNO3 pellets might have been. I figure the 'bag' was the problem, as it was just a 'handy wipe' twist tied around the e-match - and the match (my speculation) just simply burst the bag and the pellets simply fell down the core and onto the ground. I don't remember that we looked for the pellets around the pad, so it's just speculation as to what caused the failed ignition. My solution (never tried) was to make the 'bag' out of aluminum window screen wire. Lord knows, 12 BKNO3 pellets would have lifted the vehicle all by itself (each one about a 7" ball of green flame). Scott told me (prior to flight) that, "Use about a dozen of these and it'll be 'gone' in 300 milliseconds."

Still have that L750 - along with about a dozen other Vulcan motors -- H's, I's (the I160 HF was one of my favorites), a couple of J's and the L. All in all, some well-engineered motors. I'd kind of like to get Scott to provide a letter of 'provenance' confirming the 750's 'First of Type' lineage - but I doubt I'd sell it anyway.

-- john.
 
MClark said:
So Vulcan did a video of a box of AT reload burning to show how dangerous reload kits are.
Boom
It has been said there was a pound of BP added to the box to impress the ATF.
The name Vulcan became a curse after that

More to that story than I knew :p What I read about the video is the motors were ignited at the nozzle so they did major chuffing, didn't know about the BP part...

There were an awful lot of unsubstantiated rumors and emotional thinking going on around this whole episode at that time and for awhile afterwards. Lest we forget, the emotional level was already pretty high with the ATF issues - which almost immediately discounts practically *any* story you may hear by a good 50%. Add in Estes involvement (as I recall, the tests and video was done on Estes property - but, note again, this may also be wrong).

Knowing Scott as I do - coupled with my knowledge of several other individuals of that era - there's far too much chance of hearing practically anything from practically anybody on this issue - meaning probably 10% facts and 90% 'overactive imagination'.

-- john.
 
Vulcan did come out with reloads and they had problems and were not marketed.
So Vulcan did a video of a box of AT reload burning to show how dangerous reload kits are.
Boom
It has been said there was a pound of BP added to the box to impress the ATF.
The name Vulcan became a curse after that

No AeroTech reloads were used in this video.

Scott Dixon/Vulcan used reload kits of their own making to 'represent' AeroTech product.
The information about black powder being added inside the box came out in the NFPA hearings on this situation.
The video was filmed at a fire station in Colorado Springs.
 
Who or where can this infamous video be found?????

Copies of this video were few and far between.

The first copy went to the CPSC.
When word of the video got out, the NFPA rocketry group was furious. G. Harry Stine, who was a member of the NFPA, demanded a copy of the video from Estes.
Harry brought his copy of the video up to Las Vegas and played it for us at AeroTech. I watched it.
Estes/Barry Tunick stated that they (Estes) had nothing to do with the production of the video but once Dixon showed it to them they felt obligated to pass it on to the Feds.
(Dixon was working with Estes at the time).
It was a nasty time in the hobby.
 
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We do not need this in rocketry. We need to fight to keep a positive relationship between vendors and manufacturers.
 
To the best of my knowledge the demise of Vulcan was due to divorce. And the nastyness involved in the split. I do miss there motors, I have burned Vulcans from F's to J250's.
Mr. Bob
Countyline Hobbies
 
To the best of my knowledge the demise of Vulcan was due to divorce. And the nastyness involved in the split. I do miss there motors, I have burned Vulcans from F's to J250's.
Mr. Bob
Countyline Hobbies

That is a terrible way to loose a company.
 
Vulcan Systems is still around. Or at least they were in 2011 when they renewed their application with DOT to be a grantee under SP 10996.
 
If I recall the video came out about the same time as the fire in Franks garage. That was a big ole $hitstorm time with the feds
 
Not quite right -- the first Vulcan motors were low smoke (which included the L750 - they were flying them as far back as LDRS 8 or 9 up in Hartsel, IIRC) - and the Smokey Sam followed (and this was basically just a 'special effects' motor). The Hellfire propellant was the latest (or last) formulation that did, indeed, have some burn-through issues and that (substituting Smokey Sam) was the (ready) solution to the problems with the H100, but Hellfire was pre-dated by both the (original) low smoke and Smokey Sam. Not that it matters that much, but the L750 may have been the only motor produced in all three propellant formulations.

When I picked up my (custom delay) L750 Hellfire there in Colorado Springs back on the way to LDRS 11, Scott told me that it was the first Hellfire 750 made. Planned for my Nike-Smoke (see pictures elsewhere out here), the 4 outboard AT H 125's lit and the 750 didn't - and, with no electronics (not very common back then), the 4 H's lofted it probably 500-800 feet, nosed over and pretty much self-destructed on impact (I might have salvaged the fins). Lesson learned here: don't use special ignition schemes (an electric match with a 'bag' of about a dozen BKNO3 pellets) without proofing it on the ground first - no matter how 'precious' those BKNO3 pellets might have been. I figure the 'bag' was the problem, as it was just a 'handy wipe' twist tied around the e-match - and the match (my speculation) just simply burst the bag and the pellets simply fell down the core and onto the ground. I don't remember that we looked for the pellets around the pad, so it's just speculation as to what caused the failed ignition. My solution (never tried) was to make the 'bag' out of aluminum window screen wire. Lord knows, 12 BKNO3 pellets would have lifted the vehicle all by itself (each one about a 7" ball of green flame). Scott told me (prior to flight) that, "Use about a dozen of these and it'll be 'gone' in 300 milliseconds."

Still have that L750 - along with about a dozen other Vulcan motors -- H's, I's (the I160 HF was one of my favorites), a couple of J's and the L. All in all, some well-engineered motors. I'd kind of like to get Scott to provide a letter of 'provenance' confirming the 750's 'First of Type' lineage - but I doubt I'd sell it anyway.

-- john.

Hey John. After you mentioned a "Low Smoke" propellant type it came back to me; I'm pretty certain that one of my old Earl Cagle videos showed both Smokey Sam and the Low Smoke in the L750 and I would have sworn some sort of K motor (K500?) as well. In any event, then there was the Hellfire. So Vulcan had at least the 3 propellant types on the market at some point. The L750 was 54mm, right?
 
There were an awful lot of unsubstantiated rumors and emotional thinking going on around this whole episode at that time and for awhile afterwards. Lest we forget, the emotional level was already pretty high with the ATF issues - which almost immediately discounts practically *any* story you may hear by a good 50%. Add in Estes involvement (as I recall, the tests and video was done on Estes property - but, note again, this may also be wrong).

Knowing Scott as I do - coupled with my knowledge of several other individuals of that era - there's far too much chance of hearing practically anything from practically anybody on this issue - meaning probably 10% facts and 90% 'overactive imagination'.

-- john.

Hey John. I too remember the story about this "test" being held on Estes property. Good point about the emotions at the time likely dramatizing the actual story.
 
No AeroTech reloads were used in this video.

Scott Dixon/Vulcan used reload kits of their own making to 'represent' AeroTech product.
The information about black powder being added inside the box came out in the NFPA hearings on this situation.
The video was filmed at a fire station in Colorado Springs.

Fire Station in Colorado Springs versus Estes Property? What's the difference??? Just joking. Pretty amazing how a story could take such a turn. I wonder how on earth Estes ever get injected to the story? Coincidentally both being out of Colorado and therefore they're in on it collectively?
 
Copies of this video were few and far between.

The first copy went to the CPSC.
When word of the video got out, the NFPA rocketry group was furious. G. Harry Stine, who was a member of the NFPA, demanded a copy of the video from Estes.
Harry brought his copy of the video up to Las Vegas and played it for us at AeroTech. I watched it.
Estes/Barry Tunick stated that they (Estes) had nothing to do with the production of the video but once Dixon showed it to them they felt obligated to pass it on to the Feds.
(Dixon was working with Estes at the time).
It was a nasty time in the hobby.

Just answered my question...

So Scott had a day job with Estes at the time and moonlighting with Vulcan?
 
If I recall the video came out about the same time as the fire in Franks garage. That was a big ole $hitstorm time with the feds

The California Fire Marshal wasn't happy, either.

One of the results of this incident led to the California State Fire Marshal revoking the 'Gentleman's Agreement' concerning maximum weight/mass definition for 'model rockets'.
While most of the local fire agencies and states observe NFPA definitions for model rockets (1500 grams) California is stuck with old codes listing 500 grams as the maximum weight.
CAL Fire went along with the mass increase as long as there were no incidents as it would take the passage of new regulations by the CA state government to change the codes.
Frank had more than one run-in with the California authorities.
The CAL Fire authorities decided to go by the book and went back to the written 500 gram limit. :(
 
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