Quantcast

Sub for FFFF black powder???

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

Flash

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
572
Reaction score
21
Since I don't have a lep permit, what can I do to use my altimeter since I can't buy FFFF black powder?


Thanks,
JAR
 

BlueNinja

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,690
Reaction score
1
Ive heard that if you contain Pyrodex P well, it is a substitute. Just pack it in.
 

Zippy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
457
Reaction score
0
Any adult can buy black powder without any type of permit.
Thank the NRA for that when you plunk down your cash at your local friendly gun shop.
 

KermieD

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
3,000
Reaction score
1
I've been to shops here where they demand that you bring in your flintlock before they'll sell you black powder.
 

Zippy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
457
Reaction score
0
The shop keeper was probably being overcautious. Black powder can also be bought through catalog companies or over the net but I don't know if they charge a HazMat fee.

EDIT: After looking for BP online I did find one place (no I'm not going to post a link, my turn to be overcautious) but they wanted a copy of your drivers license. Not unreasonable but still the only place I could find in about 5 minutes of searching. Sportsmans Guide used to sell it but I couldn't find any on their web site and I'm too lazy to look through the stack of paper catalogs they keep sending me. For most people your best bet is the brick and mortar local friendly gun shop. That being said I actually make my own BP with supplies I bought from SkyLighter . They require a copy of your ID snail mailed and for you to sign a "Hold Harmless" form. Neither is a big deal.
 

rstaff3

Oddroc-eteer
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
11,716
Reaction score
10
The stores here won't sell it to anyone. Those that stopped carrying it that is. The exemption is for use in antique firearms. Technically its illegal to use it in a rocket without a LEUP, even if you are holding your flintlock while pushing the launch button.
 

Zippy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
457
Reaction score
0
If a Leup really is required for rocket Vs. flintlock then I guess I'll just have to do my duty as a loyal patriotic American citizen and continue to break an unjust law. I wouldn't recomend it for everyone though.
 

rstaff3

Oddroc-eteer
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
11,716
Reaction score
10
I have no problem with that position at all. But it is important to understand the ramifications of your decision. In this case, it appears that flash does, but who knows who'll read this thread.

Oh, back OT...flash, search the forum for this topic. I think it was discussed again recently. The key is to use enough and to contain it properly. Electrical tape seems to have worked the best.

I have never flight tested Pyrodex-P, please let us know if and when you try it.

BTW, BP sold as part of a reload is legit.
 

thomasrau

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
376
Reaction score
0
Flash,

Black Powder substitutes can and do work if you use them correctly. Thats the important part, BP is forgiving, dump some in a baggy, attach a match and it will work. Substitutes such as Pyrodex have to be contained to burn correctly. I use aluminum ejection cannisters which make containment simple. In tests with Pyrodex -P and Triple-7 FFg both worked great provided I packed the empty space in the cannister with dog-barf and capped it with electrical tape pulled tighty accross. The Triple-7 consistantly performed better for me than the Pyrodex-P.
 

edwardw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
2,116
Reaction score
0
I had tried for a while to use Pyrodex P instead of FFFFg or even FFFG black powder. Now having tried both sides of the fence I have to say there really isn't a substitute for FFFFg or FFFg. Pyrodex burns like a candle, while black powder is like a flash bulb. I don't think I will ever go back to Pyrodex.

Edward
 

Balsa Bob

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
706
Reaction score
2
My local Bass Pro Shop carries American Pioneer Powder fffg which is advertised as a clean replacement for black powder.

Has anyone heard of this product or used it?
 

JDcluster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5,322
Reaction score
86
Location
New Jersey
Some gun shops are not carring BP anymore, Due to the hassle of the ATFE. THey have to store it in a magazine because they usually have at least 50lbs or more on hand at a time.

The place I bought mine doesn't carry it anymore either because of this. All they required was a DL as well.
I bought 1 can back in 1997 it lasted about 3 or 4 years before I had to hunt for more....



JD
 

m85476585

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,652
Reaction score
1
Is it legal/safe to store spare BP from reloads for later use?
 

Reed Goodwin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,110
Reaction score
0
If you do use Pyrodex, just be sure to do some ground tests. I have found that if you put the Pyrodex P in a PVC end cap and cover the top with a couple layers of masking tape it has worked for my 2" airframe with a stubborn chute (it's a tight fit). I still need to do some more tests using an actual ematch because the tests I did used a homemade igniter and I am not sure if that affected the results or not. There is some discussion about this kind of thing in this thread: http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11391&highlight=bp+pvc
Reed
 

Countdown Hobbies

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
991
Reaction score
1
I am not sure of the rules, mainly becuase we do not sell it but with 5 min of research through google I found a handfull of places that seemed to just require a drivers license. BUT they make you sign off saying that they are not accountable if you break state or local laws.

Although hard to reach at times before taking a risk it may be worth it to give the BATFE a call.
 

Last Frontier

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
134
Reaction score
0
Technically its illegal to use it in a rocket without a LEUP

I have always wondered if this is the case how is it that a LEUP is not required when purchasing all rocket motors.

I have read the ATF exemption for motors with less the 62.5 grams of propellant and as far as I have seen there is no mention of the method of ejection, black powder or otherwise. Is anyone aware of an exemption for black powder as used for ejection charges for motors falling under the 62.5 gram limit?
 

maxpower

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
638
Reaction score
0
I have done a fair amount of ground testing with Pyrodex. As others have said, if you contain it, it will work. I used electrical tape in my various tests. Works great on the ground. The first time I used it in the air, there wasn't enough to eject the chute so it came down hard and broke a fin. It is entirely possible I did not use enough powder but I was told by a more experienced rocketeer that Pyrodex P doesn't burn as well at higher altitudes (the rocket didn't go that high though). In the end I can't be sure what went wrong but I don't want to use it again.
 

gregzo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Messages
855
Reaction score
1
Flash - I am certainly no expert on the law (I think others have correctly stated the true intent of the law) - and I realize this does not directly answer your question, but.....

You live in North Carolina??
That is one of the more gun friendly states around. Firearms and hunting are a way of life. As a New Hampshire resident - they would honor a concealed carry permit when traveling through your fine state. NC has a reciprocal agreement with 32 other states for concealed carry. That is VERY gun friendly.

All that being said - if you want to find real BP - I could not foresee much of a problem for you. Some stores may hassle you - but I do not think it would take much effort to obtain some BP.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to use.
 

rstaff3

Oddroc-eteer
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
11,716
Reaction score
10
BTW, since I last posted, I have flown Pyrodex-P several times. I used a PVC fitting and contained it with two cross pieces of electrical tape and then two wraps around the fitting to hold these down.
 

r1dermon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
2
BP is legal to own, up to 50lbs for sporting use. i used to get it at a local gun shop in NH, cross the border...hehe. but now they stopped carrying it due to stiff regulations. there are still a couple places in NH where i can track down some BP, and in maine too, the kittery trading post, last time i checked, carried BP. just have to be 18 to buy. the flintlock thing is kind of dumb, because some people use it in replica fused firearms, such as replica cannons, mini-cannons...and such... but company policy is company policy....
 

rstaff3

Oddroc-eteer
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
11,716
Reaction score
10
If that sport involves antique firearms. At least that's how I read the regs. Doesn't mean the regs are followed uniformly or properly.
 

Phil125

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
Messages
268
Reaction score
0
I walked up to the counter in PA. I said i needed some FFFFp he handed it to me i walked out. lol

No questions asked.

You can get it from pretty much any gunstore in PA.
 

RocketboyG80

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2003
Messages
462
Reaction score
0
Phil's right; the most they do in PA is a quick check of your driver's license and no questions asked. Heck, I even told the guy that I was using it for rocket parachute deployment and he just shrugged and handed me the can. (This was no mom and pop shop either.) Of course fireworks restrictions here are comparable to that of California, so I guess it all balances out somehow. :confused:
 

r1dermon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
2,297
Reaction score
2
not really, you guys still get aerials, reloadable mortars and bottle rockets right? you guys just need to grab a permit for a display right? at least, that's the impression im under.
 

Art Upton

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
1,755
Reaction score
2
Originally posted by r1dermon
BP is legal to own, up to 50lbs for sporting use. i used to get it at a local gun shop in NH, cross the border...hehe. but now they stopped carrying it due to stiff regulations. there are still a couple places in NH where i can track down some BP, and in maine too, the kittery trading post, last time i checked, carried BP. just have to be 18 to buy. the flintlock thing is kind of dumb, because some people use it in replica fused firearms, such as replica cannons, mini-cannons...and such... but company policy is company policy....
Antique cannons, using a smooth bore with no rifling that are loaded from the front with no open breach are antique firearms and legal to use with BP. Orange book.

You are allowed to build your own antqiue cannon.

I build small ones, out of 10mm cardboard tubes and seal the rear breach with hot glue and or epoxy.

I load them with powder from the muzzel end and use a wadding called dog barf. I use them to push a ball out of a tube called a chute cannon, that uses a noxmex blanket and nylon parachute for the Ball !

;)
 

Phil125

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
Messages
268
Reaction score
0
Originally posted by r1dermon
not really, you guys still get aerials, reloadable mortars and bottle rockets right? you guys just need to grab a permit for a display right? at least, that's the impression im under.
Nah nothing bigger than a small fountain and definately no aerials.
 

RocketboyG80

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2003
Messages
462
Reaction score
0
Originally posted by r1dermon
not really, you guys still get aerials, reloadable mortars and bottle rockets right? you guys just need to grab a permit for a display right? at least, that's the impression im under.
Nope we can only get fountains and... well just fountains pretty much. Up until recently we could still get aerial spinners but not anymore. A display permit is not that easy (or cheap) to get and once you have it you have to go out of state in order to buy the fireworks. But that's what sites likeSuperior Fireworks are for, although the shipping is a tad high.
 

dragonshiprider

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2004
Messages
349
Reaction score
0
That whole Pa. fireworks thing has gotta really bite hard if you live in Pa.Just knowing that there are full time vendors like Phantom out the wahzoo everywhere,yet if your from Pa. you can't buy from them.I think I would have to find myself another i.d. if you know what I mean.
 

Nerull

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
671
Reaction score
0
Here in IN, we can buy fireworks, but we can't set them off. Not that it ever stops anyone.
 

Art Upton

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
1,755
Reaction score
2
Originally posted by r1dermon
BP is legal to own, up to 50lbs for sporting use..... the flintlock thing is kind of dumb, because some people use it in replica fused firearms, such as replica cannons, mini-cannons...and such... but company policy is company policy....
Hi R1dermon,

Yes, you are right.

BP is used in alot more then flint locks leagally.

it's used in cowboy action pistols

reloaded into rifle cartridges used in Sharps Rifles

Poured into old and new cap and ball pistols

and a host of Cannonry.
 
Top