Semroc discontinuing some of their kits

[V'ger]

Well I am not surprised that this is happening. As I understand and have gone to the Semroc.com site to confirm, Carl and Sheryl are no longer selling the X-21, and Space Plane. I am not surprised as these and many other kits they sell are for a niche segment of the model rocket community.

What I am wondering is the following: Is it a good idea to run your business based on what only a few hundred or so people want?

Estes, Centuri and the rest, made their businesses work based on mass production; e.g. making as many units as possible to lower the overall cost of each unit, then sell to the consumer at a profit several 10s/100s times the manufacturing cost. An Estes engine cost only pennies to make, then Vern would sell them for $0.50 - $1.00s.

The other thing to note is that if Semroc were making $$$ off of sales of the X-21 and the Space Plane, then why stop selling it? Because they infact weren't making $$$ off the kits. If they were, they would still be selling it. The original kits had a lifespan of 5 - 10 years respectively. The Semroc offering lasted 14 months??? There were complaints about instructions not included with the kit, or skills needed to built the kit were too high ... to that I say to those people, 'Would you like some chesse with that whine?'

And this brings me to yet another thought: The majority of early Estes, Centuri, and others kits didn't exactly fly [pun] off the shelves. Many an Astron 'this' and early Centuri 'that' stayed in the warehouse, distributor, and hobby shop inventories for YEARS after the end of production. I remember buying Centuri kits in the early 70s and still getting the 1965/67 packaged versions straight from Centuri!

So what does one make of this discontinuation of the X-21 and Space Plane?
Is there a finite number of sales that clones/carbon copies can hope to make. The Red Max and Interceptor have been re-released. Will they pull in record sales for decades to come, or will they only satisfy the appetites of BARs and collectors (resalers) and within a few years go back to 'out-of-production' status?

Its too bad to see the X-21 and Space Plane go, but I feel that they had their reign some 40 - 43 years ago. Modern designs are simpler to build and operate. Modern designs also perform better; you get more 'glide for the ride'.

One thing to note: I have searched high and low for a hobby shop that has the X-21 and Space Plane in stock. Not a one out of 20 - 30 I have called and emailed has the kits in stock. I wonder if there was a rush for the kits and/or, there weren't very many in the supply lines to begin with?

I also might get a couple Semroc Space Shuttles and a Sat 1b or two before those go away. Oh and a couple Little Joe IIs, all of the Enerjet clones x2, Arcas, ... the list goes on and on.

I guess all good things come to an end...

V'Ger

P.s. the Semroc X-21 and Space Planes are great kits to BUILD and operate. I found them to be simple and straight forward. I downloaded and printed the instructions from JimZ site and had no issues following the instructions. I took my time, read then re-read the instructions. Test fitted parts BEFORE applying glue. Something that makes perfect sense if you are building a house, building car engines, ect.. I have Estes, Centuri, Monogram/Revell to thank for giving me the modeling skills that I still use today. Now if I could only get my fingers to work faster on my gamepads...

 

[foose4string]

Add the SST Shuttle to that short list. Basically, it's the cc: kits that are going bye bye.

 

[maxpower]

The X21 is the coolest rocket I have ever built. I have only flown it once (not a great flight) but it is a very good looking rocket. The pictures of it do not do it justice. You have to build it and hold it to truly appreciate it. Too bad it is going away.

 

[V'ger]

Add the SST Shuttle to that short list. Basically, it's the cc: kits that are going bye bye.

Here is my X-21... love it!

 

[foose4string]

I'm sure sales may have a part in their decision to do this, but according to Carl, it sounded more like the instructions were not up to modern standards, or could pose a problem to obtain in some instances. Example: Jimz site went bye bye for a few days(it's happened), Joe Blow finds a kit on his doorstep, or comes home from the LHS hoping to build his new kit....no dice! Or, Some people just expect instruction to be package with the kit: Joe Blow brings home kit from LHS and is PO'd cause he has to get online(which could pose a problem for some), then heaven forbid use HIS ink to print the instructions. Then there are some who thought certain aspects of the kit should be changed or upgraded, but the intent was to simply package repro parts. I could be wrong, but I think the decision was to eliminate any problems with their steadily growing LHS presence. Most of us forumites stick together and can adapt, but I'm sure there are many sales transactions to people who have no clue who or what Jimz, YORP, or TRF is.

Nice looking X-21 V'ger! Mine is retired. Never did get it to perform correctly. Also, look at the kits in question, all boost gliders. These tend to be tricky for a lot of people. So, that may have also been a factor. Although, the current release of the Centuri Shuttle repro maybe negate that theory.

It should also be noted that all the parts (including the laser cut balsa) to build these kits will still be available from Semroc. So not a HUGE loss really.

 

[V'ger]

I'm sure sales may have a part in their decision to do this, but according to Carl, it sounded more like the instructions were not up to modern standards, or could pose a problem to obtain in some instances. Example: Jimz site went bye bye for a few days(it's happened), Joe Blow finds a kit on his doorstep, or comes home from the LHS hoping to build his new kit....no dice! Or, Some people just expect instruction to be package with the kit: Joe Blow brings home kit from LHS and is PO'd cause he has to get online(which could pose a problem for some), then heaven forbid use HIS ink to print the instructions. Then there are some who thought certain aspects of the kit should be changed or upgraded, but the intent was to simply package repro parts. I could be wrong, but I think the decision was to eliminate any problems with their steadily growing LHS presence. Most of us forumites stick together and can adapt, but I'm sure there are many sales transactions to people who have no clue who or what Jimz, YORP, or TRF is.

Craig, you are right. I never liked the angle that I would have to log onto some other site, and get the instructions. I have a feeling that this might be a way in which Semroc could get around copyright laws?

I have research the laws a bit and found that whom ever made the item, picture, video, movie, book, ect., has rights to the object long after their deaths. I remeber that period being 57 years after their deaths. So if I wanted to repackage an Estes kit, I would have to get permission from the holder of copyright before I could resale their work. Now if Semroc were just GIVING the kits away with reprints of the instructions, he could do so and not infringe upon Estes's commercial rights to the item. At least that I was I understood from the websites, not a patent/copyright lawyer.

Also, say Mike Dorfler, inventor of the Cineroc, made something... lets say the Cineroc. Does he or Estes Industries hold the rights to the Cineroc? I believe they do. So any reprints of the Cineroc ads or photos would have to have the permission of either Mike, Estes or maybe even both! I wonder if Estes made its' employees sign a waiver that waived their rights to what ever they created while working at Estes?

V'Ger

 

[jadebox]

"Giving away" something doesn't affect the copyright. Jimz has permission from Estes to post the plans on his site.

Generally when you create a work for your employer, the employer retains the copyright.

https://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

-- Roger

 

[Ltvscout]

P.s. the Semroc X-21 and Space Planes are great kits to BUILD and operate. I found them to be simple and straight forward. I downloaded and printed the instructions from JimZ site and had no issues following the instructions.

Just a small correction. The X-21 plans are on my site, Ye Olde Rocket Plans. They can be found here:

https://www.oldrocketplans.com/centuri/cenKBG-21/cenKBG-21.htm

Also, ALL of Semroc's CC: kits have been discontinued. That includes the SST Shuttle. Semroc and some online retailers still have these in stock. You may be able to find the X-21 and Space Plane in your LHS. I don't know of any of those two being available online anymore.

 

[DaveCombs]

I'm going to have a great time building my Space Plane. I was lucky to pick it up on a business trip and bring it home. I was even test-fitting parts in the airport!

 

[V'ger]

"Giving away" something doesn't affect the copyright. Jimz has permission from Estes to post the plans on his site.

Generally when you create a work for your employer, the employer retains the copyright.

https://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

-- Roger

Roger,

Agreed. I think that for the Cineroc, Mike might hold the patent rights, and Estes holds the copyrights.

V'Ger

 

[Motörhead]

One thing to note: I have searched high and low for a hobby shop that has the X-21 and Space Plane in stock. Not a one out of 20 - 30 I have called and emailed has the kits in stock. I wonder if there was a rush for the kits and/or, there weren't very many in the supply lines to begin with?

Why not try Commonwealth Displays V'ger. They still have the X-21 and Space Plane listed as 'available' in their Semroc inventory.




Cheers ...... Pete

 

[Sheryl]

V'ger,

The cc.kits were(are) some of our best sellers. We stopped producing them because of the complaints about the instructions. We could not ignore these complaints as each customer is important to us. When Carl has time, he plans to rewrite the instructions so we can re-release the cc.kits.

 

[Bohica]

Thanks for the update Sheryl. I love my X-21 as well!

 

[Ltvscout]

Why not try Commonwealth Displays V'ger. They still have the X-21 and Space Plane listed as 'available' in their Semroc inventory.

Good eye. Thanks for finding that, Pete.

 

[jflis]

V'ger,

The cc.kits were(are) some of our best sellers. We stopped producing them because of the complaints about the instructions. We could not ignore these complaints as each customer is important to us. When Carl has time, he plans to rewrite the instructions so we can re-release the cc.kits.

Hi Sheryl

Only ONE post? You've got some catching up to do...

Having talked to Carl the other day about this I was going to mention something but figured it was best left to SEMROC to get the info out. Glad you signed in

jim

 

[V'ger]

Why not try Commonwealth Displays V'ger. They still have the X-21 and Space Plane listed as 'available' in their Semroc inventory.




Cheers ...... Pete

Pete,

Thanks for the tip, will try them later this AM. I only want one of each just to save off for another decade

V'Ger

 

[V'ger]

V'ger,

The cc.kits were(are) some of our best sellers. We stopped producing them because of the complaints about the instructions. We could not ignore these complaints as each customer is important to us. When Carl has time, he plans to rewrite the instructions so we can re-release the cc.kits.

Sheryl,

Thanks for responding. So will Carl re-release all of the CC kits at some future point? And if you don't mind me asking, was it difficult to work with the current Estes management in order to get permission to sell their clones? Did you even need permission? Do they receive any royalties on the kits you sell?

I have contacted Marry Roberts in the past and asked if Estes would be interested in the items that I have saved over the years, and she emphatically said, 'no'. I wonder if Estes is even aware of your clones or even takes what you and Carl produce in a serious manner?

I am one of those fortunate few to have some of the things that Estes threw into the trash bins back in the 1980s. Mary and crew weren't even remotely interested in them. I wasn't even asking for money, I was willing to donate them to a museum or model rocketry archive. I gave a few kits to them for reverse engineering on some parts, but alas I saw the SAME kits I donated, up on ebay a few months later. They were also being sold by a person out of the Colorado area. I could tell by price sticker types and sticker locations on the kits. Its is interesting to note that I have seen kits I sold years ago, up on ebay every so often. I know this because I have a very good memory. I can still remember back to when I was 4-5 years old and different situations, but I digress... Never again will I donate kits to a 'phantom' museum or reverse engineering project.

Great kits, great service, and I am a re-re-re-re-repeat customer of yours

Matter of fact, over the last 5 years, I have purchased more kits from you than wal*mart and LHS combined. I just like what you offer and the prices are very reasonable ... I sometimes wonder how you guys stay in business with such low prices.

V'Ger

 

[Ltvscout]

I am one of those fortunate few to have some of the things that Estes threw into the trash bins back in the 1980s. Mary and crew weren't even remotely interested in them. I wasn't even asking for money, I was willing to donate them to a museum or model rocketry archive.

If you have old kits, memorabilia, etc. that you're willing to loan or donate to a museum, you should contact Bill Stine.

 

[cmmeyers]

Slightly OT perhaps, but what is the skill level of the cc: SST Shuttle? I swear I remember seeing it as a 4 or 5, but Semroc currently lists it as a skill level 2.

 

[DaveCombs]

Hey Sheryl: Have you ever seen FlisKits instructions? I hear their tech writer/illustrator is pretty good...

 

[RoyGreen]

If you have old kits, memorabilia, etc. that you're willing to loan or donate to a museum, you should contact Bill Stine.

Or bring them to NARAM 50 next year, *then* contact Bill.

 

[lessgravity]

I love both the Space Plane and the X-21. They are both classics that all rocketeers should give a try. I'm glad to hear that Carl is probably going to modernize the instructions. All Semroc instructions are superb.
Here is my X-21 ... and some info on the build.

 

[foose4string]

Here's a pic of my very first Semroc order. I took this pic soon after they had been completed.

Funny how my first two kits were cc: kits, the Javelin was the freebie. I'm glad I had a shot at them. The Spaceplane wasn't hard to build at all, I thought the original instructions were fine. Once I realized the elevons needed to be set unevenly in order to counter the spin tabs, everything was good. I don't think the instructions mention this, perhaps I overlooked it.

The X-21 was a simple enough build, but the elevon hold down was a little unclear. Good thing we have TRF, YORF, and EEMR. I never have been able to get the X-21 to boost correctly. I can trim it for a glide just fine, but can't seem to get the elevons to stay down far enough during boost. I used a very thin piece of Kevlar thread and solid piece of copper wire(24 ga) for the hold down. It wants to arc over and turn into a powered lawn dart. I've flown it three times. The second and third time busting the clear payload section, and shortening the nose by about 3/4" of an inch. I used all the nose weight provided but think it might possibly be too much. The balsa elevon stops that extend back from the wings snapped on a couple different occasions, they seemed kind of fragile on mine. I was able to use CA to reattach then, no problem. If I were to build another, I might reinforce those by soaking with CA or paper laminating them.

Can anyone who has flown the X-21 successfully, offer any tips?