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Same name, same company, two different rockets

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caveduck

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How about the K-45 Beta with the shorty motors, vs. the TK-45 that changed it to 13mm? Same outward appearance, significant internal changes, slightly modified SKU.

In the same vein, there's the Mark vs the Mark II (eliminated the convolute wound BT-30), and the Delta (Camroc vehicle) vs the Delta II (Astrocam 110), with major design changes.

The trademark issue is definitely a factor in product naming...that is why certain scale kits have gone away. It is also true that you must commercially _use_ a trademark; three years of non-use brings a legal presumption of abandonment that can enable a challenger to invalidate even a registered trademark. Somebody mentioned the Estes Centuri - which I always found hilarious - as a possible trademark defense, which is an interesting thought given that the corporate name was Centuri Corp until 2002, but afterward nothing that I know of was being marketed or branded using the Centuri name. That likely created a small risk of loss of the potentially useful trademark for several years (a challenger has to actually bring a case to claim abandonment of a registered trademark, which "Centuri" is) until the #003232 Centuri was issued around 2012. I predict it may stay in the catalog for quite some time.

Last thought - from a marketing viewpoint, Estes is free to recycle names every several years, as the fraction of the market that would remember the previous kits of the same name is pretty low.
 

jadebox

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A little off-topic, but I noticed a while back that you could build an entire fleet of Nomads:


CanarocNomad (54010, GK-11) [1978-1982]
CenturiNomad (5035, KB-5) [1973-1981]
Custom RocketsNomad (10054)
EstesNomad (1344) [1980-1982]
FlisKitsNomad
SemrocNomad (KV-76)
 

Woody's Workshop

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Monarch is one also.
The Green & White newer one.
When they had the "Go Wild" paint scheme competition "Win Free Stuff" there was another Monarch.
I seen one on Ebay last week, I think it was grey. Over priced or I would have bid on it.
 

K'Tesh

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The newly announced 3" Der Big Red Max is an upscale of the classic Citation Red Max (MK-2), whereas the original Der Big Red Max (1403/1977) is a stretched version of the Citation Red Max.
 

BABAR

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FDCC4D36-D1EA-4143-8185-FF984A6B43C4.jpeg
9935AA0C-EF87-451B-BFB1-E093A48F2415.png

@BEC surprised you missed this one (since I copied one of the images from your post!)
 

BEC

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Ah....well, that's what I get for not trying to read the name on the smaller one. Sure enough, another "Skydart" as well. I've had examples of this Farside (which is a close relative of the Air Walker) come to some of my club launches, which is why I remembered an otherwise forgettable model, but I don't know if I've seen that little Skydart (which looks like it's essentially a Gnome in different livery).

While poking around on the Estes site last night for an unrelated reason I came across a third use of "Star Blazer" besides the K-31/TK-31 pair: https://estesrockets.com/wp-content/uploads/Instructions/001444_STAR_BLAZER.pdf
 

Mugs914

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Condor, Pegasus and Star Blazer all had Estes siblings. Pegasus actually has at least two...

1605968577699.png

1605968678236.png

1605968839434.png
 

Mugs914

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From a marketing viewpoint a glitzy face card and cool name would be more likely to add to sales revenue.
Of course, first of all the design must be appealing.
Why recycle names and add to the confusion when there are monikers that haven't been used?
Just need to be more creative.
I still haven't seen an Estes Scorcher, Fireball, or Hypersonic yet.
Estes used "Scorcher" for one of the Land Rocket kits.

1605969374655.png


These things were really fun! Maybe I need to make a post on the "I wish Estes still made this kit" thread... :cool:

1605969592405.png
 

kuririn

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Estes used "Scorcher" for one of the Land Rocket kits.
I didn't realize those Land Rockets were cold powered.
Would be tough to bring those back.
Maybe convert them to mini engine power like the Blurzz dragsters?
 

Cape Byron

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I didn't realize those Land Rockets were cold powered.
Would be tough to bring those back.
Maybe convert them to mini engine power like the Blurzz dragsters?
Dr Zooch did some work with a Coldpower motor using airbrush propellant in a modified version of his Mk II kit. Very underrated kit BTW...


There are other ozone friendly propellant alternatives. If I won the lottery I'd sink a lot of money into cold propellant models for those of us who have burn bans for nearly half the year.
 

BEC

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There are other ozone friendly propellant alternatives. If I won the lottery I'd sink a lot of money into cold propellant models for those of us who have burn bans for nearly half the year.
That’s an interesting thought....as burn bans are getting more common and longer...even here on the wet side of Washington state....
 
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Mugs914

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The trick is to invert the can while filling motor. At least it was back in the day... We could get the airbrush stuff just about anywhere and it was a bit cheaper.

Apparently, the Estes propellant had a tube inside that dispensed the liquid from the bottom of the can. The airbrush cans just dispensed the gas off the top. When we flipped the can over we go the liquid...
 

Cape Byron

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It isn't even summer yet and we have burn bans in and days of 38C (100.4F) at least once a week. Coldpower stuff would literally scream in ambient temps like that.

<pouts> I wanna fly. Now! </pouts>

And yes, I'm kicking myself for selling my BNIB Scorcher, but I sold off my vintage kits to fund Cape Byron. That's a funny story in itself...
 

Mugs914

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Seems to me there someone was having some success a few years ago with an old Vashon Valkyrie flying on modern airbrush propellant or A/C refrigerant, something like that. Was that Dr. Zooch?

It would really be fun to get this going again.
 

Cape Byron

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Seems to me there someone was having some success a few years ago with an old Vashon Valkyrie flying on modern airbrush propellant or A/C refrigerant, something like that. Was that Dr. Zooch?

It would really be fun to get this going again.
It was indeed the good Doctor.
 

kuririn

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It isn't even summer yet and we have burn bans in and days of 38C (100.4F) at least once a week. Coldpower stuff would literally scream in ambient temps like that.
Water rockets. Or water rocket cars.

343.5 kph translates to 213.4 mph in 2.3 seconds.
:eek:
 

Cape Byron

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Water rockets. Or water rocket cars.

343.5 kph translates to 213.4 mph in 2.3 seconds.
:eek:
Not really practical in a country that has seven year droughts. This time last year we were looking at trucking in water for the farm. Three huge water tanks empty and the spring aquifer had dropped so low the dam was empty.
 

BEC

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It isn't even summer yet and we have burn bans in and days of 38C (100.4F) at least once a week. Coldpower stuff would literally scream in ambient temps like that.
As I've mentioned a couple of times before, I had a Valkyrie-2 when I was a kid....and lost it on a summer day in Santa Fe, New Mexico because it outflew the park I was in.... :(

Little did I realize then than I was going to wind up living most of my life just a short ferry ride away from Vashon Island.
 
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Mugs914

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We may need to start a new thread for this, but this just occurred to me.

The old cold power motors were really just alumin(i)um tubes that were capable of handling a good bit of internal pressure, and were then able to release it quickly in a particular direction. It also occurred to me that most of us have several of these, in varying sizes, sitting in our equipment stashes even as we type.

It would be pretty easy to make new forward and aft closures for a 29mm or 38mm A-tech style reload casings that would incorporate the necessary filling valve, vent valves and nozzle assemblies. Of course we would need to find O-rings that are appropriate to the temps involved, but those would be easily available from just about any industrial supply house.

I'm not sure how the vent ports worked on the old CP motors, but they had to be dead simple. The nozzles and plug release system could be done on any lathe in pretty short order, and if warranted, could be turned out (see what I did there?) on a CNC lathe by the dozen at at a decent price.

Now, what about propellant?

Hmmmm..... 🤔 🤔 🤔
 

Cape Byron

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We may need to start a new thread for this, but this just occurred to me.
Yep, we seem to have derailed this thread. Do we move it or do the Mods do it for us?

It would be pretty easy to make new forward and aft closures for a 29mm or 38mm A-tech style reload casings that would incorporate the necessary filling valve, vent valves and nozzle assemblies. Of course we would need to find O-rings that are appropriate to the temps involved, but those would be easily available from just about any industrial supply house.
A 29mm cold propellant motor has a lot of potential. Hmmm...

Happy to do extensive hot weather testing for anyone who want to supply a test motor... 😁
 
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Jwptrek

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I've got two more from Estes. The first is the Meteor. #1370 in 1983 and #2025 in 1990. I had #2025 as my first rocket. I've also built an upscaled 3" version of it. Photo below. I also know of a case of same rocket, two names. #1991 is called Zipper (bad name in my opinion - maybe why it was changed) in 1989 and Blue Streak thereafter.
estes_meteors.jpg

bluestreak_zipper.jpg
 

Initiator001

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I also know of a case of same rocket, two names. #1991 is called Zipper (bad name in my opinion - maybe why it was changed) in 1989 and Blue Streak thereafter.

View attachment 439277
The Zipper kit was only available for one year. I believe the name change may have been required as the registered owners of the name/term "Zipper" may have contacted Estes.

I consider the Zipper kit to be one of the more 'rare' ones.
 

kuririn

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Continuing under the "same rocket, same company, two different names" how about the Shadow #2094?
It was the Optima # 2035 with new graphics.
 
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