Safely flying HPR multistage rockets

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djs

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There's a bit of a storm on the NAR FB page about an HPR 2 stager. I'd like to start a thread on what is safe/not safe for anything that involves starting a motor after the initial launch.

So maybe these topics:

1. Stability+ booster motor choice.

2. Staging- how to properly separate the two stages. Recovery of the booster post staging.

3. Motor ignition on the sustainer. How to safely ignite the sustainer. What sorts of lockouts should be done so that the sustainer does not ignite in an sub-optimal situation.

Any thoughts?
 
4. At the pad- how to safely get your rocket ready for flight.
 
I am in no way an expert, nor super-experienced, but for what it's worth this is my approach and my "best practices":

On stability, it's something of a no-brainer.....ie: I treat the entire fully-loaded rocket (both stages, motors, all recovery, etc) the same way I do any rocket on the launch pad. It is designed and loaded in such a way that it is completely stable as a whole, and that the thrust of the booster motor gets the whole shebang up to proper speed before it leaves the rail.
Additionally, the sustainer itself must be fully stable on it's own of course.

On separation......First, the fit of the sustainer onto the interstage coupler is NOT tight. It must be smooth, and slide easily, and only be tight enough so that the sustainer doesn't rock around or rattle on the ISC. MUCH looser fit than an typical nose cone for reference. This means that in all likelihood, drag separation will occur on it's own sometime after booster motor burnout.
But, secondly, I DO include an actual separation charge (which is pretty tiny) to help things along if drag alone doesn't do it's thing. This is fired from the avionics in the sustainer.

Recovery of the booster......The booster has it's own avionics located in the ISC (which is effectively the booster's "nose cone"). That altimeter takes care of ejection and chute deployment (either single-deploy or some sort of dual-deploy arrangement). I also "deputize" a fellow flyer to keep an eye on the booster's deployment and descent so that I'm not trying to track two different things in the sky simultaneously.

Sustainer ignition......I use a Raven3 for avionics in the sustainer, which handles 4 events: stage separation, sustainer ignition, apogee deployment, and mains deployment. The Raven is capable of all sorts of configuring that allow for things like optimal timing of events and more importantly locking out sustainer ignition based on a range of "sub-optimal" conditions. It can be pretty complicated and challenging, but that's half of the fun of multi-stage HPR - why would you be trying to fly something complex if you don't want any complexity? The Raven is up to the task at hand, and RockSim (or OR) is your friend in terms of working out all the little details in sims ahead of time.

Other bits:
- I generally fly CTI motors in the sustainer, as they are much more reliable to ignite in air-start situations. They also tend to ignite right away (without a possibly dangerous delay). They also generally use "ematch" style igniters, which take less "oomph" to fire - important when ignition is coming from a 9V or LiPo battery as opposed to a big 12V ground station.
- The wiring from the sustainer av-bay to the stage separation charge and sustainer igniter can be tricky. It must be separable (so that the airframe can separate at apogee deployment) but also reliably stay together long enough to do their job. I've seen other folks "twist and tape" them but I've had less-than-optimal results with this method at times. I've found some really nice break-away style connectors that work great though. You press one end of wire into a spring loaded connector, which holds together just fine, but pulls apart clean and easy when the time comes.
- It sort of goes without saying but......high initial thrust motors in the booster, and easy to light motors in the sustainer are a good idea.
- Sim and ground test, sim and ground test, sim and ground test, sim and groun.............yes?
- The Raven accomplishes safety lockout by means combinations of timing, velocity, altitude, detecting ascent/descent, and detecting first-stage burnout. It does NOT "know" actual orientation/angle per se, but all the other factors imply and inform such that it is reasonably reliable in "guessing" that conditions are safe to fire the sustainer igniter. That said, having a reliable means of detecting actual orientation/angle would be great - as it stands right now, readily available systems that can do this are extremely limited at best.

Lastly, if you are the type that double-checks every little detail in your normal pre-flight routine (and you should be), then think in terms of triple and quadruple checking your multi-stage HPR flights. There's a LOT more that can go wrong, and a lot more on your mind pre-flight. Consider using actual checklists (if you don't already) and don't skip over little details. Be diligent, methodical, and thorough. It's at least twice as important to get it all right than on single stage flights, isn't it?

Don't forget to have fun!!!! - multi-stage HPR is a blast.

ssix
 
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I am build ing a 2 stage Shape Shifter Jr. right now. Missileworks RRC3 for sustainer dual deployment plus sustainer airstart. Pet 2+ in booster for stage separation + backup main chute deploy to motor ejection. The part of the safety thing I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around is to switch & shunt or just switch the igniter and make sure all pre testing is done with the sustainer igniter out of the motor before final pad prep. There is alot of debate on shunting and I am no electronics whiz but I understand the principle of it. I guess the real question is how to do it the safest way possible without getting the wiring & switching too complicated or crowded as all this has to fit in a 2.1 airframe av bay.
 
Sorry the thread has hardly started and I already went off into a tangent about my own build issues. I am subscribed to this thread as 2 stagers become more popular this is important to discuss & learn.
 
Interested in the spring loaded connector. Do you have more info? Mfg, part number, etc ?
 
This dood:
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Did this:
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Pretty much makes him the king of staging in my book. I believe he used 57 (or 6) raven's on that flight. I've seen a bunch of his other staged flights. When they fail, everything comes down safe and slow under chute. Very cool. Search around TRF.... pretty sure Fred's said what he did there.
 
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This dood:.
will hopefully make a pit stop on this thread :) Saw an onboard video of his flight at MWP last year (assuming it's the same dood).. very cool flight.

So what are people's thoughts on the best way to ensure the sustainer only lights when safe? Obviously a timer is not enough- what about velocity, tiltometer, or altitude lockout?
 
This article on the NAR website has some material on risk analysis and mitigation (he said humbly):
https://www.nar.org/pdf/HPR - Quantum Leap Two Stage Dual Deploy Project - Sport Roc.pdf

I personally would not launch a two stage project without at least redundant deployment altimeters in the sustainer. The problem of inhibiting sustainer ignition given a bad trajectory is very challenging, and solid solutions are still being developed. However, the risk can largely be mitigated with good selection of booster motors and advance calculation of wind limits that are then adhered to.
 
So what are people's thoughts on the best way to ensure the sustainer only lights when safe? Obviously a timer is not enough- what about velocity, tiltometer, or altitude lockout?

I was just reading about the CTI accident tonight, which is a sobering reminder that we are participating in an activity that can be dangerous. Two stagers have significantly more issues than single stage rockets, and it is important to consider safety issues at the start of the build and not as an afterthought. Here are some guidelines that I use.

1. Use an altimeter that incorporates an altitude check and not just a timer. There are somewhere around a half-dozen altimeters that can do this. They can help keep the sustainer motor from firing on the pad. And, they can prevent the sustainer motor from firing if the flight is not nominal. Programming the altitude check is not quite as easy as some people think, though, and it is easy to get it wrong. I could provide several examples from my own experience, but my recommendations are to make sure that you understand exactly how your electronics work and to have your setup and underlying simulation reviewed by someone who has done it before.

2. Related to the above, it is also possible to use tilt to inhibit firing of the sustainer. My belief is that the altitude check approach is primarily about safety whereas the tilt check is about staying within the waivered radius. I use an altitude check even if the altimeter provides a tilt check.

3. Use switches to prevent the igniter from firing if the firing circuit activates prematurely. My recent designs use a switch to short-circuit the igniter itself and a second switch to open the circuit between the igniter and the altimeter (or whatever the firing circuit is). This can be done with one switch, but I prefer two. I used to use a shunt only (a switch that shorts out the wires to the igniter). This can provide some protection; however, it is important to recognize that a shunt still allows current to pass through the igniter if the electronics fire. The purpose of the shunt is to reduce that current to below the level that fires the igniter. The current that will pass through the igniter is a function of many things, including the relative wire lengths and gauges, the igniter characteristics, the altimeter design and the type of battery that is used. Thus, a shunt has to be specifically designed and then tested as it would be used. It is not a good idea to use a LiPo or other high-current battery to fire the igniter if you are using a shunt. But again, the best approach is to also physically open the circuit.

4. Do an all-up test of the electronics (ideally) just before setting the rocket on the pad. All of my designs are configured so that I can do an all-up test. In the all-up test, everything is assembled and everything is turned on just as it will be when you arm the rocket, except that the igniter is not inside the motor. This is pretty much your last line of defense against a malfunction. If the all-up test passes, you turn things off, insert the igniter and put the rocket on the pad. There are many design features you might implement in staging that might inadvertently make the all-up test harder to perform. Therefore, it is useful to consider from the start how you will do the all-up test when the time comes.

5. I recommend keeping others away from the pad when it comes time to arm the sustainer. No one has ever actually witnessed me arming a sustainer from closer than a hundred feet or so, and for flights with larger motors, it is further than that. The pic below shows what the pad area looks like when I arm the electronics.

Finally, here's a link to an interesting flight where the N motor in the sustainer ignited upon first motion of the rocket. This would be called dodging a bullet, as it could have as easily lit prior to first motion. Two-stagers are fun, but safety is really important.

https://youtu.be/Jc14BHeuemk

Jim

Pad pic.jpg
 
A bit of wisdom from a previous build thread of mine,[obviously a 2-stage].........




One of unique things about flying 2-stage rockets is the level of complexity it CAN, or can NOT add to the flight & how you as an individual decide how to handle these choices.


.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............

You must also realize by making the choice to fly 2-stage rockets, you are taking on a burden of flying SAFELY...I cannot overemphasize this!

I ALWAYS arm my staging electronics first with the igniter hooked up, but OUTSIDE the motor. This is to ensure everything is functioning correctly . If all is a go, then & only then do I insert my igniter into the motor, & continue with pad prep. [after power turned off] Yes it has paid off. There was an instance where the igniter fired, the instant power was applied to the the electronics. This would have been disastrous, had it happened were I standing on a ladder next to the sustainer and the motor lit! Turned out to be a defective altimeter. It had been flown before, just decided to malfunction then. [do they ever pick a good time?]

I always make sure the area around the pad & ladder are clear of people & objects in case something does go amiss & I must jump clear.


.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............

Make sure you have a clear understanding of how your electronics function & the settings they feature. If you are not clear, even by the tiniest amount, ask someone or call the maker of the unit.

If it's your first rodeo, practice the hook-ups with igniters , arm your gear making sure everything functions perfectly. Have a checklist and USE it. Before sticking motors in the stack.

"The arse you save, may be your own."

Start out simply, save the fancy stuff till after you have a couple of successful flights i.e: lengthily staging times, cutting timing too close, doing exotic settings.

Have someone helping you. It will take at least one extra set of eyeballs to keep track of where the booster is going while you are watching the sustainer. Or 2 people tracking if using those.

Personally I like using motor eject for the booster, with a properly sized chute, to eliminate complexity on the booster side for those JUST BEGINNING.

Don't aim for the moon the first few flights, just get everything working correctly, is an accomplishment in itself.

Be sure of your motor choices. The booster motor MUST be able to lift the full stack quickly and have enough thrust to handle the TOTAL weight of the stack INCLUDING motors.
These are just my recommendations & are by no means written in stone.

Any others well versed in staging, any hints to help would be appreciated as I know many first timers will be reading/building/following this thread.

This is the year of the 2-stage, & I want everyone to have fun, be successful and fly safe!


Edit: now I also add a comparator factor to the sustainer firing, with my RRC3, "Must be at altitude X before ignition". In other words if stack does not reach say....1500 ft...don't fire sustainer. Usually if things decide to go wonkers...it will happen before X altitude. [ X being determined by size of motor] For those flights where tiltometer is not being used.

TelaMega/titometer can be set so when flight is off vertical by X degrees, sustainer won't fire. Best way, but expensive electronics, most won't invest in when starting out.
 
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Those were my four stagers at LDRS and MWP.

Over the years I've developed a number of techniques that have led to a reasonable level of success. I don't know if that qualifies me as king, but if that does then, Jim Jarvis is Caesar.

Your original posts demonstrates a mindset that puts you well along the right path. I think of a flight at URRF in 2014 as one of my more successful flights. I was attempting a large (for me) three stage with K's and J's. The boost off the pad was perfect, but the second stage didn't ignite. Yet everything deployed and recovered without incident.

The posts from Jim, CJ, and Stealth6 are spot on. I have just a few comments to add.

I use Ravens for staging and recovery deployment. I also use a second altimeter for backup deployment. I like the Raven because it counts stage burns, a key feature when you go past two stages. As other have posted, it provides go/nogo logic for upper stage ignition. Typically, be so high within a certain time. With previous experience and careful thought you can use this to prevent stage ignition in event of a anomalous trajectory. A side effect is that it defines a tight time interval for motor ignition (after previous stage burnout and before the set time). So if the motor doesn't ignite within this time, you can be pretty sure it won't later.

There is a lot of discussion regarding the efficacy of stunts in preventing stage ignition. I use 1S 130 mah lipos to power my Ravens. These provide enough oomph for stage separation and ignition and dual deployment, but can be made safe with a shunt. I have ground tested this several times under worse-case conditions. The same cannot be said of a standard 9V battery. I've also used those rotary switches to shunt and disconnect as Jim suggests. A third technique I've used is to route the stage ignition circuitry through two Ravens. One latches its pyro channel ON when an in-flight safety condition is achieved and the other triggers the igniter at a proper and safe time.

Jim's "full up" test is a great safety check. Just to clarify, this test is to be done with the igniter out of the motor, but also with igniter connected and unshunted. Once it passes, power down the avionics then shunt, connect, and insert the igniter.

I use the Raven's self test feature early in flight prep to make sure the altimeter's FET wasn't fried closed in its previous flight. I also take a screen capture when I configure an altimeter for flight and save it in a "flight plan" folder on my laptop. I typically configure avionics several days before a flight; this allows me to double-check configuration should doubts arise later (and they usually do).

Keep your avionics neat and organized. Make it at least be very difficult, if not impossible, to miss wire your av-bay. I have my sleds pre-wired so the leads line up to the corresponding altimeter terminals. I use mini-dean connectors to complete the circuits to the bulkheads. So once I build and test the sled wiring I can be pretty sure I won't miss-wire it for flight.

Also consider how you will arm the rocket on the pad. Multi-stage rockets tend to be quite tall. Under no circumstances should you arm your avionics when the rocket isn't in launch position. You might need to stand on a tall ladder. I've started to use remote switches sold by EggTimer. Whatever you do consider how you would disarm and remove the rocket from the pad in case of a scrubbed launch.

Keep it safe.

...Fred
 
Really like the idea of the remote switch. I take it you are using it with your Ravens Fred. I am trying to visualize doing the preflight check with the rocket upright and the igniter out of the motor. The sustainer must be sitting loosely on top but not secured in the interstage coupler so the igniter can hang out of the rocket. I know this is asking a a lot but a video of yourself and or Jim Jarvis doing a full up pre flight check right up to the launch would be so helpful to us 2 Stage newbies. It could help to set a standard that alot of 2 stagers would follow. I am also interested in how the remote switch is incoporated to the electronics and pyro channels. Does it control the shunt separately from the power or does it provide full power to all channels?
 
Maybe "full up" is a misnomer (at least in my case). I do it stage by stage.

I use the remote switch to provide power to the Raven. An ultra bright LED on the airframe confirms power is on and the full up test preconfirms continuity. I pair the Raven with a Telemetrum for redundant deployment.
 
I think of a flight at URRF in 2014 as one of my more successful flights. I was attempting a large (for me) three stage with K's and J's. The boost off the pad was perfect, but the second stage didn't ignite. Yet everything deployed and recovered without incident.

That flight seriously impressed me. I've seen many disasters in single stage rockets. This was a complex flight and it all came done nice and neat.
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that whole flight- https://www.flickr.com/photos/31757945@N05/sets/72157666383562185

a full 3 stager early during URRF2- https://www.flickr.com/photos/31757945@N05/sets/72157665837098050

the whole 4 stage at LDRS- https://www.flickr.com/photos/31757945@N05/albums/72157654750855688
 
Wow can't argue with that. Awesome pics Dave.
 
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Thanks for all the great posts in this thread! As you may have guessed- I'm working on a 2 stager (wildman jr. vindicator) that I hope to fly on an H+I at mini MWP, and probably and I+J at MWP, assuming all goes well. There are also people trying to talk me into bringing it to NSL this year, but I have to finish it first :)
 
I just re-read this thread because I want to start compiling the electronics for my 2-stage builds this winter. Based on the advice here, I am planning to buy a Raven (would love a Telemetrum, but I'll start small) and I already own an Eggtimer Wifi switch.

But I don't know where to begin with the discussion of shunts. Can someone suggest a specific product and configuration? This is new to me, so I don't even know where to begin.
 
I've been reading those threads and watching the embedded videos too. It looks like the shunt does not prevent ignition if the altimeter errantly fires, but it still may provide protection against static discharges. Either way, it sounds like an open switch is also necessary, which I was already planning to do.

It looks like everyone is just twisting and taping their shunts. Is there a switch that can be installed to simplify all of this by acting as both an open switch and a shunt?
 
Depending on the altimeter, the on/off switch (or twist and tape), is the switch that opens the circuit. Another switch may not be necessary and would just add another failure point. There is another thread not too long ago that discussed this in detail.
 
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It looks like the shunt does not prevent ignition if the altimeter errantly fires, but it still may provide protection against static discharges. Either way, it sounds like an open switch is also necessary, which I was already planning to do.

It's entirely possible to design a shunt that prevents ignition if the altimeter fires. It's just a circuit that needs to be designed like any other circuit. Key variables are the resistance of the shunt versus that of the igniter (keep the shunt short), the capability of the battery to provide current (avoid lipos), and the type of ematch used (the no-fire current). Shunts can be designed and then ground tested. My own preference is to use both a shunt and an open circuit using separate switches.

Jim
 
I like a lot of the advice mentioned here. I'd like to point out a few other things. Safety when it comes to 2 stage rockets involves mitigating risks in 2 separate areas: minimizing the risk to personnel on the ground during the preparation of the rocket while on the ground and minimizing the risk of an errant flight path that can cause harm to people/property or stray outside the designated waiver area.

minimizing the risk to personnel on the ground during the preparation of the rocket while on the ground


  • As mentioned before, the biggest additional risk is the chance the sustainer lights while on the ground. Properly designed shunting or a switch that breaks the circuit to the sustainer motor igniter is a really good way to eliminate this risk. However, it still requires someone to shoulder the risk of turning it on. Jim for instance clears people away put still puts himself at risk by being on the ladder near the pad.
    • To remove the risk, I suggest using the WiFi switch mentioned earlier as a circuit break for the sustainer igniter. That way, you can connect the circuit for the sustainer when everyone including you is backed way to a safer distance.
  • A shunt on the igniter side of the switch will protect against static discharge.

What are your thoughts for safety protocol with head end igniters in the sustainer? Any different than protocol with normal igniters?

minimizing the risk of an errant flight path that can cause harm to people/property or stray outside the designated waiver area

  • The biggest risk is igniting the sustainer on the ground or shortly after liftoff.
    • Altitude lockouts as mentioned earlier are critical.
  • The next biggest risk is igniting the sustainer when it's orientation has strayed too far from vertical. Best case is a long walk with worse case being igniting the sustainer when it's pointed down toward the earth.
    • Tilt lockouts help here.
    • A rigid launch pad is a must. Kip Douglas recently has issues where the thrust against the blast deflector pushed the guide rail and caused a 10 degree tilt off the pad. Be sure it's properly anchored.
  • Jim didn't mention it, but he posts his avioinics configs on here for people to look at. Some errors have been caught that would have otherwise spelled trouble. It would be worth it to post the configuration on here and let some people double check.

Minimizing the overall risks

  • As mentioned on this thread, develop checklist and have procedures for critical things like arming the avionics. Use 2 people in a pilot/co-pilot fashion (i.e. co-pilot states next checklist item, you do it and verbally confirm, co-pilot double checks if it's a critical step, and verbally confirms it's done). I cannot reiterate enough how important checklists are.
  • Don't get distracted when working your checklist. Avoid things like stopping to talk to people that want to talk shop.
  • CTI motors are well regarded for the sustainer because they have a pyrodex pellet in the top grain that aids with ignition. If they are not an option consider augmenting the igniter or using something heavy duty like one from quickburst.
  • The booster stack needs to be stable and the sustainer needs to be stable for flight. Make sure you do your analysis on each configuration that will be flying.

Have fun with this.
 
Nate, that's an excellent summary. The #1 success factor is that the rocket MUST be stable... you should be able to fly it with just the booster motor with the sustainer motor installed but without an igniter, and it should go straight up and recover just like any other DD rocket. The usual stability factors apply: CG/CP margin of at least 1C, thrust/weight of at least 5:1 (preferably more), decent speed off the rail, etc. The key to a successful multistage flight is sim, sim, sim.
 
Thanks Jim, Nate, Titan, Cris, and everyone else who weighed in. I'm sorry to be such a pest with all of this. I think I understand the theory of a shunt and why it is necessary, but i'm just wondering if anyone has an actual picture of one in a rocket that is ready to fly.

The videos that I have found online just show a jumper wire bridging the leads of the ignitor on a bench. How do you remove the jumper when the rocket is sealed up and ready to fly? It best practice to instal a separate switch to open and close the shunt on the pad?
 
Thanks Jim, Nate, Titan, Cris, and everyone else who weighed in. I'm sorry to be such a pest with all of this. I think I understand the theory of a shunt and why it is necessary, but i'm just wondering if anyone has an actual picture of one in a rocket that is ready to fly.

The videos that I have found online just show a jumper wire bridging the leads of the ignitor on a bench. How do you remove the jumper when the rocket is sealed up and ready to fly? It best practice to instal a separate switch to open and close the shunt on the pad?

I posted a few pics of a recent altimeter bay. It has 5 switches in total with three of them related to the staging (power, "open" and shunt). I like using separate switches because I can close the "open" switch and then hear continuity from the altimeter (which sort of indicates that the altimeter is working properly), and then open the shunt.

I think I'll give the WiFi switch a try. One question is whether to use it as the "open" switch to complete the circuit or as the shunt. I know using it for the "open" switch is more intuitive, but using it as a shunt might be even better. Hmm.

Jim

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I posted a few pics of a recent altimeter bay. It has 5 switches in total with three of them related to the staging (power, "open" and shunt). I like using separate switches because I can close the "open" switch and then hear continuity from the altimeter (which sort of indicates that the altimeter is working properly), and then open the shunt.

I think I'll give the WiFi switch a try. One question is whether to use it as the "open" switch to complete the circuit or as the shunt. I know using it for the "open" switch is more intuitive, but using it as a shunt might be even better. Hmm.

Jim

Jim,

You can use it either way but it's definitely safer to use it as the open circuit switch. When power is not applied and when the switch starts up the automatic mode is open. There are no normally closed contacts available. If something fails like the wire to the battery, the switch will fail into a safe open state and you'll be able to identify the continuity issue. If you use it as the shunt, you need to turn it on before connecting the igniter. Any failure point like a broken wire or the battery dying will automatically remove the shunt creating an unsafe condition that you may not know about.
 
Great info here. One issue I've struggled with in designing a 2-stage for BALLS next year is remote arming and still be able to check continuity and altimeter status. After looking at the Eggtimer remote wifi switches it seems like it solves that issue. I understand that if I have multiple switches I can connect to each one via its unique SSID. But the instructions are unclear if two units can be used in close proximity. It seems like I would need on for each altimeter. I would probably handle the booster electronics without the wifi switch and use them for the dual Ravens in the sustainer.

Has anyone used multiple copies of the wifi switch in the same rocket in very close proximity? If so, are there any issues to be aware of?

I find it amazing that for such a small hobby we have such a wide range of sophisticated electronics available to us.

Any real-world experience with multiple switches is greatly appreciated.


Tony
 
Great info here. One issue I've struggled with in designing a 2-stage for BALLS next year is remote arming and still be able to check continuity and altimeter status. After looking at the Eggtimer remote wifi switches it seems like it solves that issue. I understand that if I have multiple switches I can connect to each one via its unique SSID. But the instructions are unclear if two units can be used in close proximity. It seems like I would need on for each altimeter. I would probably handle the booster electronics without the wifi switch and use them for the dual Ravens in the sustainer.

Has anyone used multiple copies of the wifi switch in the same rocket in very close proximity? If so, are there any issues to be aware of?

I find it amazing that for such a small hobby we have such a wide range of sophisticated electronics available to us.

Any real-world experience with multiple switches is greatly appreciated.


Tony

I've used 2 together without issue. They were spaced about 1/2" apart. No problems.
 
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