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This was the re-issued Cox X-15 sold by Estes with the Estes name on it. Very dense plastic nose cone filled with nose weight. It "flew" (I have no details of the flight path, motor used, launch rod length, wind conditions, etc.) and it came down and either ejected as it hit the child or the nose stayed on (leaking plastic rocket unable to pressurize and eject nose and recovery system) and it hit him like a yard dart.

CPSC recall resulted. Google it. Postere went up at every store - including Wal-mart and the registers at wal-mart were programmed to prohibit sale and indicate it was subject of a safety recall.

i stand corrected. sorry i miss spoke before, i meant to say nobody has been killed by a rocket, and when everybody follows safety operations and pays close attention only property can be damaged by a misfired rocket.

i think it's like 5 people who have died from rocketry, and they were reteriving rockets from power lines.


and what exactly happened in that article? i doubt a scout would be working with a DD rocket, so a misfired ejection charge is most likely out of the question.



but back on topic, i think it's important to remember that the motor smashing into you will do much more damage than a small piece of alumnium.

eric has some amazing looking kits and i don't see why anyone would make a thread like this just to get into a heated arguement over the use of the word "necessary ductile metal"
 
CPSC recall resulted.

Actually, the recall happened before this incident. If I remember correctly, the rocket was purchased before the recall but the Boy Scout function happened a short time after. Also, I don't believe the reason for the recall was a factor in this event.
 
Actually, the recall happened before this incident. If I remember correctly, the rocket was purchased before the recall but the Boy Scout function happened a short time after. Also, I don't believe the reason for the recall was a factor in this event.



Correct!!! The recall was before this incident. The retainer in the model was failing, resulting in ejection problems = lawn dart recovery. In this incident the rocket went horizontal.

Thread on RP including replies by a witness to the accident - https://www.rocketryplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=858&highlight=boy+scout
 
Wow, a thread jack of a thread that was separated from another thread due to a thread jack. Of course, I kid, but I doubt that we're really debating the construction materials used on the X-15, even though it did cause real damage.

Someone above said that we shouldn't be bashing Eric and I don't think everyone is. Those who are aren't on topic. The original comments did come up in a thread regarding his kits, but there is a bigger topic to discuss at this point and in this thread.

Could we keep a discussion going that addresses:

1) Metal in rockets
2) Building for purpose
3) Caron fiber, metal, fiberglass vs other
4) Similar topics to the stated title of the thread 'Rocketry Construction Materials'

I expect this to turn into a less than amicable discussion, but earlier today on an unrelated forum, I read what could be called a flame-war starter topic and then over 15 pages of good discussion. I'd like to see our community follow that path on this subject.

Please self-moderate, but continue discussion. My Request Only (MRO?!?!?!).

Sandy.
 
...

Could we keep a discussion going that addresses:

1) Metal in rockets
2) Building for purpose
3) Caron fiber, metal, fiberglass vs other
4) Similar topics to the stated title of the thread 'Rocketry Construction Materials'

...

For me:

1) I use metal in my rockets, where it makes sense to me
2) You need to clarify what you mean by "purpose" (although I may have answered it with Answer 1)
3) I have used FG, CF, and metal and plan to continue to use these materials in the future
4) Part of the issue is that there is no statutory code for what constitutes good use of materials in rocketry (the current codes are too general). If the LCO let's the flyer take it to the pad, then I'm ok with that. I do expect the LCO to have the wisdom to look at the rocket and ask questions if he has concerns. No LCO worth his salt wants a questionable rocket doing bad things on his watch, unless it placed on the away pads where there is a greater safety margin. My opinion is that if there are concerns, get it further away or deny flight.

Greg
 
Sorry to continue the off-thread distraction but I think I can help fill in some of the holes...

Archived Media Articles by BRETT SHIPP, WFAA-TV
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 07, 2007
DALLAS, Texas USA - Six weeks after a toy rocket nearly killed her son, a North Texas mother is struggling to help pay the bills needed for his recovery.

Our local media was pretty weak on facts about this whole thing, at least in regards to facts that would interest us rocketry geeks. They pushed hard on the 'poor little kid was injured by the boy scouts and then abandoned by them' aspect of the story

I was asked to serve as a subject-matter expert witness in this matter. I was given access to much of the deposition material and many photographs of the model rocket that were taken after the accident. The following description includes factual information as best I can remember (my files are put away somewhere), without exaggeration or personal slant. Any comments or opinions of my own have been noted.

The launch was conducted at a scheduled church-scout group weekend campout. The group had done this before and had experienced people on hand. Organizers had made reasonable efforts to encourage kids to get beginner-level kits. Launches used A-B-C-class low power motors. Hobby-standard launchers were used (plastic legs, 1/8-diam launch rods, etc). Range and launch operations seem to have been reasonably well organized and controlled; scouts stood in line, experienced scouts and adults supervised preps and launches, crowd control was effective, etc.

Launch facility was reported to be on a flat portion of terrain, near a building, with downrange terrain dropping away (downhill) and covered with scattered bushes and small trees. Scouts who had already launched their rockets were downrange searching for retrieval. Apparently none were expecting any trouble (my opinion: I think this is an entirely reasonable expectation that we all would have made)

Weather and launch conditions were OK; broad daylight, dry, some wind noted by some eyewitnesses but apparently not enough wind to cause experienced leaders to call for halt.

A plastic model rocket had been brought by one scout (NOT the victim) at his request because he already had it. This was apparently approved by the group leadership. (My opinion: although the product recall had been issued, I question whether it is reasonable to expect someone other than a rocket-nerd to have knowledge of such a recall). This specific rocket is reported to have been launched at least twice earlier that same day and apparently had a normal, uneventful, safe flight each time. This plastic model rocket had a sharply pointed NC shape, made of hard styrene plastic, and contained a metal ballast weight.

The final launch of the plastic model rocket reportedly experienced a severe, abrupt change in flight path just above the launcher. The rocket was turned toward a horizontal flight path just above the end of the launch rod, at just about the same instant that the motor reached maximum thrust. It is my assessment that some combination of factors (modroc weight, motor power, launch rod strength, possible wind gusts, etc) resulted in an unfortunate rod-whip incident that reached a worst case (rod tip lateral velocity) condition at the moment when the modroc separated from the launch rod, causing severe tip-off.

The modroc reportedly traveled in a horizontal flight path, only a few feet above the ground, across the launch area and over the edge of the surrounding hill. Apparently the normally expectable curving descent of such a flight path was also a near-perfect match to the local terrain. Various witnesses described the altitude of the flight path to be around five to ten feet.

The victim was downrange at the time, searching for his own model rocket, and was unaware of the launch problem or of the approaching model rocket. The victim described only seeing the approach at the last moment, and hearing a whoosh noise. The victim was struck under his arm. The model rocket was still in the coast phase of the motor burn. The complete model rocket broke several ribs and pierced the chest cavity and lung, followed immediately by discharge of the ejection charge inside the chest cavity. The NC penetrated within a few inches of the victim’s heart.

Paramedics called to the scene cut the shock cord and separated the body of the modroc. The victim was evacuated by helicopter to a regional hospital. Surgeons removed the parachute, nose cone, and (presumably) ejection wadding. The victim has apparently made a full recovery since this incident but I would not be surprised if he was not a big fan of model rockets.

From the photographs made available to me (and they were ridiculously extensive) there was no sign of any kind of obvious damage to the plastic model rocket that would begin to explain this flight behavior or raise any suspicion of failure of any kind. There were no bent or misaligned fins, no nicked or misshaped leading edges (or any other edges), no sign of cracks, no broken launch lugs, no off-axis nozzle holes, no motor case side burn-throughs……nothing. The plastic model rocket appeared to be in good enough condition (after shock cord repairs) to quite safely prep and launch again. I think that without the recall notice, if I handed this model rocket to any of you, you would have no suspicion of a problem and no reason not to launch the thing yourself.

In my opinion this was a one-in-a-million (billion?) event, purely an accident. This was “The Perfect Storm.” Each of the factors leading to this incident were freak occurrences;
1) Launch rod tip-off of such severity to cause a radical, early change in flight path (while under full thrust)
2) Resulting height of flight profile
3) “Perfect” match of descending ballistic flight profile to local hillside
4) “Perfect” direction of tip-off toward victim
All of these factors together, at the same time, I would normally have called IMPOSSIBLE. But it did happen.

Is the probability of a repeat event (with this specific model rocket design or any other) high enough to warrant changing our ways, finding a better way to inspect and launch? That’s a good question. I don’t think so, but then again I never would have expected anything like this to happen in the first place.

I will admit that when I first heard of this accident on the local TV news I was immediately suspicious that some kids had been recklessly misusing model rockets, deliberately launching them at each other something along the lines of that stupid Jack### show. Nothing could have been further from the truth. This was NOT an instance of Joe-Bob and his drunken friends. This accident could have happened to any of us. Thank God that when it did occur, there were scouts and other people present to help this kid, get proper emergency care, and get him to a hospital. If this had happened to an individual out by himself, launching alone, there is a sizeable chance that he would have bled out and died.

WRT The Product Recall

The recall had been previously issued but these folks seemed to be unaware of it. The plastic model rocket had been legally, properly, etc purchased prior to the recall at a major chain store which until recently had also sold several other model rocket products, none of which would have raised any suspicions on our part.

Further, the product recall was issued for a completely different reason. This product had experienced several instances of failure-to-eject, followed of course by ballistic flight and hard terminal impact. Suspicions were that the ejection gas was leaking out through the molded launch lug holes, or through separated/split upper and lower halves of the plastic body, or due to separation of the plastic tail ring securing the motor case (allowing the motor to kick out instead of the parachute). This recall was not related to any instability of this model rocket, whether known, suspected, alleged, or anything else. Whatever the cause of the recall, this modroc was history…..literally.

Lastly, I would like to thank Art Upton one more time for his support and his loan of equipment.

Sorry for my part here in continuing the derailment, I promise no more from me about this unless someone wants to start a separate thread.
 
Powderburner, thanks for posting that, it's enlightening.

That model just looked like an accident waiting to happen. I would like to note though, that since the nose cone was undamaged, the plastic, reinforced with any solid (epoxy or otherwise) would've created similar results. They may not have been as bad as the metal, due to sheer weight, but i think the mass of the rocket was a bigger factor in the damage to the child than the fact that it was metal.

as an example, i made a 29mm min. diameter rocket (lumpy in my sig if you wanna take a look). the rocket weighed only about 1.3-1.4 oz ready to fly, until i added nose weight. the nose weight was a pour of about 1.5oz of laminating epoxy (lower cure temp). now epoxy is pretty dang hard, and i would fear the rocket hitting me with either 1.5 oz of metal, or 1.5oz of epoxy in the nose. especially launched off a g79W approaching mach 1.12 :D
 
Wow, a thread jack of a thread that was separated from another thread due to a thread jack. Of course, I kid, but I doubt that we're really debating the construction materials used on the X-15, even though it did cause real damage.

Someone above said that we shouldn't be bashing Eric and I don't think everyone is. Those who are aren't on topic. The original comments did come up in a thread regarding his kits, but there is a bigger topic to discuss at this point and in this thread.

Could we keep a discussion going that addresses:

1) Metal in rockets
2) Building for purpose
3) Caron fiber, metal, fiberglass vs other
4) Similar topics to the stated title of the thread 'Rocketry Construction Materials'

I expect this to turn into a less than amicable discussion, but earlier today on an unrelated forum, I read what could be called a flame-war starter topic and then over 15 pages of good discussion. I'd like to see our community follow that path on this subject.

Please self-moderate, but continue discussion. My Request Only (MRO?!?!?!).

Sandy.




I don't think the incident brought up is off topic. This thread is about safety issues of the materials being used in the kits. To keep it short, this incident shows that regardless of materials being used ( what we consider to be relatively safe) can cause injury, death, or property damage.

I think Erics kits are great. They are definately "tough." The body tubes description concerns me more than the aluminum parts. To me PVC means shatter.

I think the main issue that needs to be addressed is - will flying these kits void my insurance coverage? Hopefully we will have an answer soon.

To end, I think anytime a safety issue comes up in a thread, whether "jacked" or not, it is a good thing. In our hobby there is not such a thing as too many safety reminders.
 
Wow, a thread jack of a thread that was separated from another thread due to a thread jack. Of course, I kid, but I doubt that we're really debating the construction materials used on the X-15, even though it did cause real damage. [snip]

Sandy.

Rcktnut, I agree. I was just trying to make a funny. Safety is the ultimate concern, from design through flight.

Sandy.
 
[snip]
2) You need to clarify what you mean by "purpose" (although I may have answered it with Answer 1)

[snip]
Greg

I was thinking along the lines of a Mach Buster has one set of requirements, while a low and slow demo launch flight for a scout launch has an entirely different purpose. Therefore carbon fiber construction could pertain to the first, but shouldn't pertain to the last.

There are some people that seem to really think through their ultimate goal prior to beginning a design and executing the construction. I don't want to single out people by name, because that would imply that I am familiar with exactly what they've done, whereas I simply infer from what I've read that they put a lot of effort into designing for purpose. Guys who are doing Mach 2+, going many tens of thousands of feet or who attempt altitude records are the ones I'm thinking about, though. LPR people who do difficult projects are also on the list, but more often than not they don't seem to abuse materials. The FAI folks really seem to fit in that category for sure.

In my journey so far, I am no longer enjoying overbuilding my rockets. That's one reason I am interested in the discussion - personal growth and development.

Sandy.
 
Sorry to continue the off-thread distraction but I think I can help fill in some of the holes...



Our local media was pretty weak on facts about this whole thing, at least in regards to facts that would interest us rocketry geeks. They pushed hard on the 'poor little kid was injured by the boy scouts and then abandoned by them' aspect of the story

I was asked to serve as a subject-matter expert witness in this matter. I was given access to much of the deposition material and many photographs of the model rocket that were taken after the accident. The following description includes factual information as best I can remember (my files are put away somewhere), without exaggeration or personal slant. Any comments or opinions of my own have been noted.

<snip>

Sorry for my part here in continuing the derailment, I promise no more from me about this unless someone wants to start a separate thread.


That's pretty much my take on the event as well. I believe the materials given to me as another "expert witness" was pretty much identical to the material you had. I drew the same conclusions.
 
As someone who has been in rocketry a long time(I remeber when Vern Estes had hair), and as some one who has the nick name "Core Sample" Cooper, I believe that it is the rocket builders responsibility to build correctly for the field, and for the crowd.

I believe all maiden flights of new rockets, kits, plans, or scratch, should be a heads up announced launch.

We fly from MMX to G's and a few H's here in the Alamo City. I believe YOU WILL BE HURT if hit by an H powered rocket period. What it's made of unless it's 100% steel, makes little difference.

Not taking sides just stating the facts mam.

Andrew
 
I was thinking along the lines of a Mach Buster has one set of requirements, while a low and slow demo launch flight for a scout launch has an entirely different purpose. Therefore carbon fiber construction could pertain to the first, but shouldn't pertain to the last.

There are some people that seem to really think through their ultimate goal prior to beginning a design and executing the construction. I don't want to single out people by name, because that would imply that I am familiar with exactly what they've done, whereas I simply infer from what I've read that they put a lot of effort into designing for purpose. Guys who are doing Mach 2+, going many tens of thousands of feet or who attempt altitude records are the ones I'm thinking about, though. LPR people who do difficult projects are also on the list, but more often than not they don't seem to abuse materials. The FAI folks really seem to fit in that category for sure.

In my journey so far, I am no longer enjoying overbuilding my rockets. That's one reason I am interested in the discussion - personal growth and development.

Sandy.

well, i dont see carbon fiber being used in low and slow... I could be wrong....
But to me, low and slow will have sonotube, not carbon fiber... or mailing tube[for the smaller end]
I dont really see anyone who is going to spend 150.00 for a tube that is free...or construction cheap..
(again - my own observations..)

But i have seen cardboard/paper rockets... i have a 6" diameter rocket that flies on 3-E motors that has an airframe made of the paper/foam board you get at walmart, and is wrapped with paper and glue...

Sandy, I think there is a difference in the degrees, and acceptableness of what a Person does as far as vehichle/construction as compared to the conditions of the flight, and where it is flown.

Lets look at model, mid-power, high power and amature.
Each of these can be broken into 3 categorys.
Scale, Sport, Extreme, Modroc

you have people building ant-scale saturn 1/b, the mid power vstok's and then you have the people like Steve Eves who is by my opinion on the amature scale.

you have the same thing for altitude, and duration events.. and you have modrocs that constitute across the same scale... from egg lofts to kegglofts...


i think if your looking at estes... Low power, there should be acceptable practices... Like cardboard paper only, no metal, minimal plastic.. ect...
a D motor, shouldnt be placed in a blackhawk 24, and flown at my sons 1st grade school... A fat boy... sure...

Same token, mid-power, should start to use better teqniques, like AT uses abs-fins with through wall... lets them still use paper centering rings... (good thinking...)
I think the begining use of fiberglass and carbon fiber is okay here.. if it is flown where highpower site specification can be meet. Its okay to use a profusion 29mm vk nosecone, with cf body tube and teeny tiney fins, and go after that G motor record, IF you have a recovery site, launch site safety dimensions... All plausable effort made....
My opinion here, is the ductile metal is not ever needed...
even in a heavy loaded rocket short fat, to tall skinny...

To put as short as possible, in high power and amature i think your construction should mirror where you fly... people touched on this... where east coast has such a small waiver, and midwest and west have significantly higher(thus, unistruts are used for low and slow...) whereas midwest and west dont particularly use unistrut....
building a rocket is no different. it should be built to fly the field... if the site can handle P motors, who cares what or how its made, the field should be able to handle contingency there....
Balls comes to mind...
if its a launch site that can barely handle a single M flight at a time... Build your rocket accordingly.
 
Good points, with respect to altitude though at some point that becomes irrelevant due to the terminal velocity a specific rocket achieves on it's way in ballistic. (heaven forbid).
 
I think the main thing we all need to remember is common sense. For example if your club launches in a large park that can handle H impulse rockets and it's within your clubs motor limit, then fine. However if in the same park there is a couple ball games going on and alot of park traffic, obviously you need to rethink that flight. I have rockets that are cardboard as well as FG, CF, and PVC they are all great rockets and well built and I'm personally going to add some BaddAzz rockets to my collection too. Where, when and under what conditions I'll fly them will be based on many factors including common sense.
 
This reminds me of the thread about the low power rocket built using high power methods in Sport Rocketry.

This thread has gotten a bit long winded so I need to understand because I may have missed the point; is this about a couple of aluminum centering rings about 1.3" od with a 1" hole punched in the middle and a bulkhead to match? So there is about as much metal as a 3/6" eyebolt and washers?


I have never seen a complaint about Aero pack retainers, or aluminum motor cases.
 
[YOUTUBE]gqJRJN55dbI[/YOUTUBE]
I guess this would not be something we should do in the local county park although it appears to be legal in Downieville, CA.

70lb anvil launched on black powder during the annual Gold Rush Days.
 
o1d_dude said:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqJRJN55dbI">YouTube Link</a>
I guess this would not be something we should do in the local county park although it appears to be legal in Downieville, CA.

70lb anvil launched on black powder during the annual Gold Rush Days.

Holy crow! Lol yep that demonstrates the point! Pretty kewl though! Lol
 
This reminds me of the thread about the low power rocket built using high power methods in Sport Rocketry.

This thread has gotten a bit long winded so I need to understand because I may have missed the point; is this about a couple of aluminum centering rings about 1.3" od with a 1" hole punched in the middle and a bulkhead to match? So there is about as much metal as a 3/6" eyebolt and washers?


I have never seen a complaint about Aero pack retainers, or aluminum motor cases.

On the contrary, I think you hit the point exactly.

I think that people were originally talking about the thin aluminum, as it was inferred to not be required for structural reasons. I assume RMS reload cases have gotten by because they are required to be metal due to motor characteristics.

U-bolts, eye bolts and motor retention seem to be accepted metallic items, and I can't see where centering rings/bulkheads are different than that.

Its all in the final intended safe use and the flier is the one responsible for that.

Sandy.
 
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