Paging Adobe Illustrator Types

[JAL3]

Adobe Illustrator is one of those programs I have because I have to use it on rare occasions. I only use very basic functions and then only when there is no other way to get the job done. Mostly, I open an AI file and save it into another format. I have Illustrator 10.03.

I used to be pretty good with Autocad but that was a long time ago. I have Acad Release 14. I used it to do a scale drawing and ordered some wonderful parts from Roachwerks. They came in today and I am ecstatic about them. Gordon managed to make what I need and sent me a quality product.

I am working on a semi scale project and need a shroud. I used the Robert Blaske shroud calculator on EMRR to get the diminsions I needed. The tool is here: https://www.rocketreviews.com/tool_shroud.shtml

I used those numbers to go back into Autocad and generate the template for my shroud. I saved it as both DXF and EPS files as well as in the native DWG format.

That brings me to Illustrator. I wanted to import the shroud into AI so that I could add the artwork, rivet lines, etc. I tried to import all three file formats and was successful only in getting the shape. The imported image is greatly scaled down by an unknown scale factor.

What's going on here?

Is there anyone out there who can tell me how to import something and not lose all the scaling info?:surprised:

Please...

I suppose I could plot directly from Autocad but that would result in much less accepable artwork. I would have to spray over the rivets, logos, etc. and then come up with a way to get it all back.

 

[2muchstuff]

...I am working on a semi scale project and need a shroud. I used the Robert Blaske shroud calculator on EMRR to get the diminsions I needed. The tool is here: https://www.rocketreviews.com/tool_shroud.shtml

Uhh, not to ask the obvious, but why don't you just make the shroud in AI? You can create two circles with the correct radius, and then draw a vertical line from the center past the furthest edge. Use the reflect tool to make a copy of that line the correct angle as indicated by the shroud tool and you you'll have your shroud. There is no need to import anything from ACAD. Then you can draw away to your hearts content.

I hope this helps.


tms

 

[JAL3]

Uhh, not to ask the obvious, but why don't you just make the shroud in AI? You can create two circles with the correct radius, and then draw a vertical line from the center past the furthest edge. Use the reflect tool to make a copy of that line the correct angle as indicated by the shroud tool and you you'll have your shroud. There is no need to import anything from ACAD. Then you can draw away to your hearts content.

I hope this helps.


tms

I actually tried this and have so far failed, due primarily to my lack of AI know how. I generated the circles and lines but have no confidence that the endpoints and centers are really snapping to where I think they are. Also, I don't know enough to create the polar arrays that only fill up a portion of a circle in AI. To expose my complete ignorance, I might as well admit that trimming does not work anything like the same way in AI as in Autocad.

In short, I've failed miserably so far.

As far as the purpose of this project goes, I have started a thread here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?p=596292#post596292

 

[..Pat Butler]

I use Corel Draw and Illustrator to a lesser extent. If you want to email me your original file I can take a look at it. There are lots of incompatibility problems between autocad and most graphics programs. One of the biggest issues is autocad's tendancy to break up line segments into smaller segments. A lot of the line properties such as thickness and color get messed up too. You can usually find the missing segments by looking at your drawing in wire frame mode.

My email is (edited- no longer needed). I can look at it and see what's up.

 

[Huge Blues]

That would be me.

I used the Body Tube Transition Calculator on EMRR to generate a shroud and it gave me a PDF file. That will open in AI and be editable. I took my shroud, deleted the screen background, cleaned up some lines and added my NAR number. I am using Creative Suites 3. If you get a version issue when you open you could try a save-as to a lower version PDF.

If you got an EPS file from the shroud calculator than that should work. If it scaled upon import than try opening it instead (command+O on a Mac). I'm thinking an import preference may be working against you. If it refuses to open at the correct size you could use the scale tool in the tool pallet or the transform box that you will find under the window drop-drown menu and whack it back into compliance.

 

[gpoehlein]

Transitions are easy in AI - I make them all the time. A caveat here - I havev AI 9 and CS, so the commands in 10 may be in a different place. If it isn't where I say, look around - they'll be there somewhere. Here is the procedure I use:

I use the calcs from Stine's Handbook of Model Rocketry to get my outside and inside circle and arc. Then, with those three numbers:

1) Go into View and choose Outline. Also, turn on Grid and Rulers - they'll help.

2) Draw a "cross hairs" somewhat larger than the outside circle. (You can draw one line, copy it, and rotate the copy 90 degrees.) Center them in both directions and lock them together.

3) Draw your outside and inside circles using the circle tool (Just select the tool and click near your crosshairs. You can enter the horizontal and vertical dimensions both are the same) and your circle with be just the right size. Move both circles over the crosshairs and center the whole thing.

4) Draw a vertical line with the pen tool that is a bit larger than the large circle. (Click for the first point, hold the SHIFT key and click on the end point.) Copy and paste this line twice - you should have three vertical lines. Center all.

5) Now the fun part. Select the top vertical line, pull down Object - Transform - Rotate and rotate the top line by your arc. (I usually make this a negative number just so it rotates to the right.). Select the second vertical line and click on the Free Rotate Tool in the tool palette and free rotate the second line so it is about 1/4 inch wide in the middle (if you center the whole thing on the grid so that the center of the crosshairs are on 1 inch marks in both directions, you can judge the 1/4" width easily) - this is going to be your glue tab.

6) Select everything except the crosshairs. Drag-Duplicate the circles and three lines and pull away from the rest (if you do this, you have a backup set in case something screws up - speaking of which, save the darn thing now )

7) Move the inner circle off to the side for the moment. Select the vertical line and use the Divide Objects Below command (This one could be in a couple different places - in CS it is in Object - Path) to cut the circle into two semi-circles. Repeat the process with the tab line and arc lines.

8)Group all the wedges together. Recenter the inside circle over the top of it and ungroup the wedges. Using the Scissors tool, cut the inner circle just outside the arc line and tab line. Throw away the wedges that you don't need as well as the part of the inner circle that is opposite your transition. What is left should look like your transition and glue tab with wedges inside. Move the inner circle piece to the top and use Divide Objects Below to slice off the inside wedges.

That's it - you've got your transition. The beauty of this method is that you can modify it to decorate the transition on the fly. For example:

Want a line of rivets 1/4 inch from the base? Before throwing away the slices, make a circle that is 1/4" radius smaller than your outside circle. Center it over your group of wedges (remember to group them together before centering) and you can use this circle to place the rivets.

You can use the same method to create Saturn-V type roll patterns - just make a circle that is half-way between the inner and outer circles, and make three extra vertical lines. Rotate these lines 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 of the arc and use them to slice a copy of your transition. Once sliced, you can alternately color them black and white.

If I get a chance tonight, I'll try to do a quick visual tutorial (assuming I get home from work early enough) Trust me - the process is actually pretty easy and once you get the hang of it, the possibilities are nearly endless.

 

[2muchstuff]

....As far as the purpose of this project goes, I have started a thread here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?p=596292#post596292

OK, that looks like a really cool project. You are right about trimming in AI, it takes a bit of knowledge about how the program works to trim things - it's not as simple as it could (or should) be.

What are the dimensions of the shroud you are trying to make? Post them here and I'll give it a quick go in AI and let you know the results. If it works, I can send you the file. I'll also see if I can write up a quick and easy way to trim one object to another.


tms

 

[2muchstuff]

...
7) Move the inner circle off to the side for the moment. Select the vertical line and use the Divide Objects Below command (This one could be in a couple different places - in CS it is in Object - Path) to cut the circle into two semi-circles. Repeat the process with the tab line and arc lines....

Ahh, always interesting to see it done another way. I use compound paths, which requires far fewer steps, but is somewhat harder to explain if you don't know how compound paths work

The whole process can be made much more precise by just using the transform palette - you can easily do the whole thing by just typing in the required numbers and no alignment or guide is necessary - it becomes much more CAD like and precise. You can set your measurement units in the Prefs before you begin so you can use millimeters, inches, pts., whatever you like.

Illustrator has almost gotten too complicated for its own good. But it is amazingly powerful if you know how it works.


tms

PS: I tried the link supplied by Huge Blues and it worked fine - it created a PDF that opens in AI with no trouble. You can then use the direct select tool to remove any lines or fill you don't want. Much easier than rolling your own, but not as manly.

 

[gpoehlein]

Actually, about the only thing I eyeball in the process is the rotation on the glue tab - and that doesn't have to be precise as long as it "looks right". The rest of the process is pretty precise.

 

[JAL3]

I use Corel Draw and Illustrator to a lesser extent. If you want to email me your original file I can take a look at it. There are lots of incompatibility problems between autocad and most graphics programs. One of the biggest issues is autocad's tendancy to break up line segments into smaller segments. A lot of the line properties such as thickness and color get messed up too. You can usually find the missing segments by looking at your drawing in wire frame mode.

My email is [email protected]. I can look at it and see what's up.

email sent

 

[JAL3]

That would be me.

I used the Body Tube Transition Calculator on EMRR to generate a shroud and it gave me a PDF file. That will open in AI and be editable. I took my shroud, deleted the screen background, cleaned up some lines and added my NAR number. I am using Creative Suites 3. If you get a version issue when you open you could try a save-as to a lower version PDF.

If you got an EPS file from the shroud calculator than that should work. If it scaled upon import than try opening it instead (command+O on a Mac). I'm thinking an import preference may be working against you. If it refuses to open at the correct size you could use the scale tool in the tool pallet or the transform box that you will find under the window drop-drown menu and whack it back into compliance.

Thanks for the interest.

I gave that one a try but found that it is limited to an 8.5x11 sheet. My shroud is considerably larger.

 

[JAL3]

Transitions are easy in AI - I make them all the time. A caveat here - I havev AI 9 and CS, so the commands in 10 may be in a different place. If it isn't where I say, look around - they'll be there somewhere. Here is the procedure I use:

I use the calcs from Stine's Handbook of Model Rocketry to get my outside and inside circle and arc. Then, with those three numbers:

1) Go into View and choose Outline. Also, turn on Grid and Rulers - they'll help.

2) Draw a "cross hairs" somewhat larger than the outside circle. (You can draw one line, copy it, and rotate the copy 90 degrees.) Center them in both directions and lock them together.

3) Draw your outside and inside circles using the circle tool (Just select the tool and click near your crosshairs. You can enter the horizontal and vertical dimensions both are the same) and your circle with be just the right size. Move both circles over the crosshairs and center the whole thing.

4) Draw a vertical line with the pen tool that is a bit larger than the large circle. (Click for the first point, hold the SHIFT key and click on the end point.) Copy and paste this line twice - you should have three vertical lines. Center all.

5) Now the fun part. Select the top vertical line, pull down Object - Transform - Rotate and rotate the top line by your arc. (I usually make this a negative number just so it rotates to the right.). Select the second vertical line and click on the Free Rotate Tool in the tool palette and free rotate the second line so it is about 1/4 inch wide in the middle (if you center the whole thing on the grid so that the center of the crosshairs are on 1 inch marks in both directions, you can judge the 1/4" width easily) - this is going to be your glue tab.

6) Select everything except the crosshairs. Drag-Duplicate the circles and three lines and pull away from the rest (if you do this, you have a backup set in case something screws up - speaking of which, save the darn thing now )

7) Move the inner circle off to the side for the moment. Select the vertical line and use the Divide Objects Below command (This one could be in a couple different places - in CS it is in Object - Path) to cut the circle into two semi-circles. Repeat the process with the tab line and arc lines.

8)Group all the wedges together. Recenter the inside circle over the top of it and ungroup the wedges. Using the Scissors tool, cut the inner circle just outside the arc line and tab line. Throw away the wedges that you don't need as well as the part of the inner circle that is opposite your transition. What is left should look like your transition and glue tab with wedges inside. Move the inner circle piece to the top and use Divide Objects Below to slice off the inside wedges.

That's it - you've got your transition. The beauty of this method is that you can modify it to decorate the transition on the fly. For example:

Want a line of rivets 1/4 inch from the base? Before throwing away the slices, make a circle that is 1/4" radius smaller than your outside circle. Center it over your group of wedges (remember to group them together before centering) and you can use this circle to place the rivets.

You can use the same method to create Saturn-V type roll patterns - just make a circle that is half-way between the inner and outer circles, and make three extra vertical lines. Rotate these lines 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 of the arc and use them to slice a copy of your transition. Once sliced, you can alternately color them black and white.

If I get a chance tonight, I'll try to do a quick visual tutorial (assuming I get home from work early enough) Trust me - the process is actually pretty easy and once you get the hang of it, the possibilities are nearly endless.

This is the kind of thing I just don't know. With Autocad, its all intuitive for me. I can constructi the geometry I want based on the same principles I learned back in the 10th grade. I'm sure the same holds true for AI as well but I don't know the system and how to get from A to B.

I'll give it a try. At the very least, I'll learn a little bit more about AI.

 

[JAL3]

OK, that looks like a really cool project. You are right about trimming in AI, it takes a bit of knowledge about how the program works to trim things - it's not as simple as it could (or should) be.

What are the dimensions of the shroud you are trying to make? Post them here and I'll give it a quick go in AI and let you know the results. If it works, I can send you the file. I'll also see if I can write up a quick and easy way to trim one object to another.


tms

The calculator on EMRR gives a small radius of 1.74", a large radius of 13.19" and an angle of 311.73 degrees.

Thanks,

 

[..Pat Butler]

Here's what I did in Corel Draw-

Draw any size circle
Type 1.74” into the property box to get your diameter.
Ctrl-D to duplicate
Type 13.19” into the property box. Now you have your two concentric circles.
Draw a vertical line up from the center of the circle by constraining it vertically using Ctrl key while drawing. Extend the line to the edge of the circle.
Choose rotate from the Transformation tab and input 311.73 degrees and choose “apply to duplicate”.

Now enjoy the fact that this can be done in less than a minute without all of the extra steps in Illyi That's all that's needed, and that's why I use Corel Draw 99% of the time versus Illy which I've also owned and used for many years. I do a yearly ad program book for a local drum and bugle corp competition and have to draw literally hundreds of ads each year- you learn the shortcuts pretty fast.

Now, the drawing can be cleaned up by eliminating extra lines and the such, but the excess lines are going to be cut away.

Things like rivets can be added by drawing another concentric circle where you want the rivets to be. Draw the first rivet in vertical alignment with the center point of your drawing. Use the same rotation function and choose "apply to duplicate" to drop in all your required rivets. The only calculation needed is to divide your arc in degrees (311.73) by the number of objects you need. You need to account for any overlap that might have been designed into your drawing.

View attachment Graphic1.pdf

 

[Huge Blues]

Thanks for the interest.

I gave that one a try but found that it is limited to an 8.5x11 sheet. My shroud is considerably larger.

Ah...yes, Grasshopper.

I will reveal a secret: There is much more to the PDF than meets the eye.
The 8.5 X 11" crop is only a function of a component box. Open in AI and the FULL file will be visible.

I made a 9" shroud that was a BT-20 to a BT-60 and saved it to my desktop. Opened in Acrobat, it was 8.5 x 11 and showed a big chunk lopped off.

In AI, ALL the lines and elements are present and in full editable glory.
The complete size of the shroud I made (lines, circles and all the "extras") was 37.75 X 32.75"

There are other ways to open the crop box but AI is a good choice for this use.

Off course you will need to print out of AI. There will be a page tool in the tool pallet that will let you adjust the image position after you set the sheet size in the print dialog. Be sure any fit-to-page option is de-selected.

Personally, I will never be smart enough to draw a shroud, In AI or otherwise. I believe this method is dirt-simple.

 

[gpoehlein]

Here's what I did in Corel Draw-

Draw any size circle
Type 1.74” into the property box to get your diameter.
Ctrl-D to duplicate
Type 13.19” into the property box. Now you have your two concentric circles.
Draw a vertical line up from the center of the circle by constraining it vertically using Ctrl key while drawing. Extend the line to the edge of the circle.
Choose rotate from the Transformation tab and input 311.73 degrees and choose “apply to duplicate”.

Now enjoy the fact that this can be done in less than a minute without all of the extra steps in Illyi That's all that's needed, and that's why I use Corel Draw 99% of the time versus Illy which I've also owned and used for many years. I do a yearly ad program book for a local drum and bugle corp competition and have to draw literally hundreds of ads each year- you learn the shortcuts pretty fast.

Sure, if you aren't creating a transition for public consumption and don't mind the extra lines, you can stop at step 6 in my tutorial above. (You can also leave out the crosshairs - I just like them because they help me find the center easier.) The remaining steps are pretty much the same, only the commands and process are a bit different. However, if you do leave everything without the cutting, don't forget to make the center circle on top (turn off outline and make sure the center circle is visible, and make sure the lines are all on top of everything (if you draw it in the sequence I indicated, they should be). Or else change the fill color of both circles to clear (the box with the red line through it).

 

[jtaylor]

JAL3....

Going back to your original question of why it is importing those files at different scales..... How are you importing the file?

 

[JAL3]

JAL3....

Going back to your original question of why it is importing those files at different scales..... How are you importing the file?

I set up a documet in AI to the size I wanted, went to the File menu and chose "Place", navigated to the file I wanted and selected it, watched an itty bitty version pop up on the screen.


TO ALL:

I was in the midst of writing a message this morning when TRF went down. I just got back home.

Thanks for all the info thus far. I am going to be trying some of this. Unfortunately, the large scale plotter I was counting on to do the printing went on the fritz just about an hour before TRF did so I'm not going to be printing anything until the techies do their incantations.

 

[Stymye]

you can save your drawing as a pdf than import to ,Illustrator should retain it's size that way

 

[JAL3]

you can save your drawing as a pdf than import to ,Illustrator should retain it's size that way

I never thought of that. I have never once saved an ACAD file as a PDF. My time using Autocad predates my time using any of the Adobe products. I seem to remember a button to do that and will check it out.

Right now I am waiting for my plotter to get fixed. The tech was out yesterday and I fear that it is in that part of its HP life cycle where parts keep getting replaced until the owner gets disgusted and buys a new maching. That's not happening for me. My plotter is a legacy from my former career and I can't justify the 20k replacement cost for rocketry.

 

[paul graf]

I wrote Autocad lisp program for drawing shrouds a while back. I'm sure it will work with v14. See attached file. I had changed the extension from .lsp to .txt to make this a valid attachment. After you download it change the extension back to .lsp

If you need help loading & running the program just let me know.


Paul

View attachment SHROUD.txt

 

[JAL3]

I wrote Autocad lisp program for drawing shrouds a while back. I'm sure it will work with v14. See attached file. I had changed the extension from .lsp to .txt to make this a valid attachment. After you download it change the extension back to .lsp

If you need help loading & running the program just let me know.


Paul

Thanks!!

I'll give it a try this evening.

 

[George Gassaway]

JAL3 replied to someone else on using a shroud calculator file:

>>>>>
I gave that one a try but found that it is limited to an 8.5x11 sheet. My shroud is considerably larger.
<<<<<

A semi-kludge work-around that might be of use:

To keep something really big inside of 8.5 x 11 drawing working area, create it at 50% scale, and print it at 200%. Or, draw it up at 25% and print at 400%.

You may also need to play with line width (weight) so that the lines and details printed at 200% or 400% are not too thick (or too thin).

Myself, I draw from scratch using MacDraw/ClarisDraw, after getting the numbers from a shroud calc program.

- George Gassaway

 

[2muchstuff]

Here's what I did in Corel Draw-

Draw any size circle
Type 1.74” into the property box to get your diameter.
Ctrl-D to duplicate
Type 13.19” into the property box. Now you have your two concentric circles.
Draw a vertical line up from the center of the circle by constraining it vertically using Ctrl key while drawing. Extend the line to the edge of the circle.
Choose rotate from the Transformation tab and input 311.73 degrees and choose “apply to duplicate”.

Now enjoy the fact that this can be done in less than a minute without all of the extra steps in Illyi ...

I used the exact same steps in Illustrator, and got the same results. The tools and shortcuts are different, but It's just as easy. It did not require any additional steps. (OK, I had to type in the width and height of the circle, instead of just the diameter, and duplicate is TWO shortcut keys instead of one, but the steps are exactly the same otherwise.)

If you can do something in a lot fewer steps in one program than another, it may mean on program is more efficient than the other, or it may mean you know one program better than the other. I suspect it may be the latter in your case.

Following your steps AND trimming the shapes to a shroud took less than two minutes in Illustrator. It would take me forever in Corel Draw since I don't know anything about it.

Reading the subject line, he asked about Illustrator, not Corel Draw.

As always, YMMV.


tms

 

[2muchstuff]

The calculator on EMRR gives a small radius of 1.74", a large radius of 13.19" and an angle of 311.73 degrees.

Here is an AI file made using the dimensions you posted. It's a pretty big shroud - it will just barely fit on an 11x17 sheet. You can change the fill and all that as normal.

It looks pretty thin at the top. Let me know if I'm way off, I'm not too good with numbers, typing or figuring.


tms

View attachment Shroud.ai.zip

 

[JAL3]

Here is an AI file made using the dimensions you posted. It's a pretty big shroud - it will just barely fit on an 11x17 sheet. You can change the fill and all that as normal.

It looks pretty thin at the top. Let me know if I'm way off, I'm not too good with numbers, typing or figuring.


tms

I appreciate the thought and the effort... but that ain't it. I'm going to take a guess and say you generated in the sector of the arc that should be blank. With a 311 degree arc, it should go almost all the way around.

The finshed product would be just over 26" wide.

 

[2muchstuff]

I appreciate the thought and the effort... but that ain't it. I'm going to take a guess and say you generated in the sector of the arc that should be blank. With a 311 degree arc, it should go almost all the way around.

The finshed product would be just over 26" wide.

DO'H!! I obviously was in a hurry and picked the shorter arc. I can just reverse it and do the 'other' side. I knew it didn't look quite right....

Here's a version that I hope makes more sense


tms

View attachment shroud2.ai.zip

 

[aerospike]

Autocad 14 probably won't have the pdf converter anyway.

I move stuff from Autocad to AI fairly often. When you draw your graphic in Autocad, draw a bounding box of a known size around it. Now, export it as an eps, then open it in AI. Window the image with the box around it and in the "transform" menu type in either the 'x' or 'y' dimension, hold the control key (to scale proportionately) and hit enter.

P.S. Not having those two programs in front of me right now, some details may not be quite right. It could be you hold the 'shift' key down while scaling.

 

[CharlaineC]

The pdf converter comes up as a printer when you chouse to print. use the option that brings up the printer selection and you should be all set.

 

[graylensman]

P.S. Not having those two programs in front of me right now, some details may not be quite right. It could be you hold the 'shift' key down while scaling.

Yes, to constrain proportions in Illustrator, use the shift key. Additionally, if you know the percentage you wish to scale, hold down the Option key (alt key, for Windows types) and click. this will call up a dialog box that will allow you to enter in your percentages.