New to rocketry, jumping right in - have many questions

[BDB]

There's no shame in cardboard. My L1 and L2 were both >6' tall cardboard kits. I love the fact that they can fly on anything from an H to a K. I'm currently planning to build a 10' L3 rocket out of blue tube (tough cardboard), hoping that I can regularly fly it on K's but also on M's when I feel like burning more money (literally).

 

[PoweredBySoy]

Dumb question - does the listed CG take into account a standard motor weight or anything?? I'm guessing no.

The listed CG and CP are already fairly close. Just wondering if after adding a motor I might want to add a bit of nose weight. It's such a short rocket.


Follow-up question - what's a good way to add removable nose weight?

 

[BDB]

The weight of the motor and casing should be a part of the CG measurement. So it will be different for each motor that you use.

Adjustable nose weight is kind of tricky. Most of us just use permanent weighting (I epoxy BB's into the nosecone) to make a stable CG for the largest motor we plan to fly. LOC just introduced a variable weight system for their nosecones. It looks like an interesting concept.

 

[Rex R]

assuming you're asking about the cg of 8.75" (from tip of nose) as listed on page 1 of the instructions for the mini squat. that is the no-go point of a flight ready(with motor) rocket. further aft will tend to have the rocket 'skywriting'. I would be prepared to add some nose weight if it were my rocket.
Rex

 

[Bat-mite]

Alright, I ordered my rocket! .... a Madcow cardboard Mini Squat. I can fly this little guy on Estes D's and E's to get me started.

Well, gentlemen, you successfully squashed an old mans dreams. I hope you're happy!


(excited to get this little guy in the mail)

Not squashed! Just delayed a little. And we're all old men.

 

[neil_w]

Not squashed! Just delayed a little. And we're all old men.

Sad but (mostly) true. [emoji53]

 

[jlabrasca]

And we're all old men.

Speak for yourself.

 

[samb]

But some us still revert to giggly 8 year old knuckleheads at “go” time.

WOOSH , <pop> , “YEEHAAAY !!!”

You already made your purchase but I would have suggested one of the Aerotech kits, the original almost ready to fly big boy rockets. Quick build, robust parts, eats E, F, and G motors all day.

 

[Bat-mite]

Speak for yourself.

Oh, there are always outliers.

 

[dhbarr]

Alright, I ordered my rocket! .... a Madcow cardboard Mini Squat. I can fly this little guy on Estes D's and E's to get me started.

Well, gentlemen, you successfully squashed an old mans dreams. I hope you're happy!


(excited to get this little guy in the mail)

When you've done enough BP, check out the Aerotech Single Use F32T, should be a hoot and no hardware investment.

 

[DAllen]

I haven't read all the posts but I do want to encourage the OP with a couple of thoughts:

There is no one way to do this hobby. A lot of people will insist on telling you, "THIS IS HOW YOU ROCKET" and insist that their way is the right way to get into and "do" the hobby. This could not be further from the truth. You do what YOU think sounds like fun. It is a hobby and treat it as such and you will be rewarded with fullfilling experiences in spades. You want to jump in G powered rockets right away? GO FOR IT. I encourage you to ask questions, go to launches and look at how others build their rockets in person and see what methods appeal to you. Motor retention for example...Go down any one flight line and you'll see about a dozen different ways to make this happen. Everything from pricey machined retainers to home-brew contraptions to cave-man simple threaded rod glued to the side of the MMT. Is there a wrong way to do retention? So long as it works...nope. The real truth is, if you are doing the hobby in a safe way and following the rules there is no wrong way to "do" the hobby. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

-Dave

 

[Cory]

Okay same as Dave above did not read everyones replies but want to put in my 2 cents anyways (evil smile). I have the Madcow Arcas and have flown more than any other single rocket in my stable because of the overall ease of use. I need no nose weight and fly it on all 38mm CTI motors from 3 grain H's to 6 grain J's. I suggest setting up for dual deploy if you want to future proof. It is my only rocket with single switch and single altimeter, but with the perfectflite stratologger and ejection lighters from Crazy Jim I am batting 1000 with it. Again even if you use it first as single ejection with motor deploy, building it to be capable of dual deploy is not much if any more difficult and will pay dividends in the long run if you want to shove a 6 grain J motor in it. Take a look a the first post in the linked thread for a picture and flight info https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/remembering-airfest-xx.69816/.
What you need most is to attend a local launch where HPR is being flown, and so much will be made clear. Everyone here will try to help, but keyboards are no substitute for hands on.
Get some rocketpoxy, shear pins, aeropack and plastic rivets from Wildman, a stratologger and mounting hardware from perfectflite, some recovery gear from onebadhawk, and a 36" Iris from fruity chutes, hold your breath while you pay for it all, then go to a Tripoli launch and get your L1. YOU WILL BE HOOKED FOR LIFE!

 

[samb]

...

What you need most is to attend a local launch where HPR is being flown, and so much will be made clear. Everyone here will try to help, but keyboards are no substitute for hands on.
...

THIS ! In bold, neon, 3 inch headlines.

 

[Hugues]

Maybe it's just my LPR-oriented view of the world, but I can't quite get the desire to jump straight to an L1 build without learning on any smaller stuff first. It doesn't cost that much money or time, and you'll still end up with a flying rocket.

SpaceX didn't start with the BFR, or even the Falcon Heavy. There's a reason.

As Bat-mite said, though, it's your hobby and you can certainly do it however you like, within the bounds of safety. Building an L1-capable rocket as a first build seems doable for someone who knows their way around a workshop. I just don't fully understand why you would want to. Maybe that's just a failure of understanding my part.

Good luck in whatever approach you take. It's a great hobby.

I could not agree more. I only been in this hobby for 2 years ( start for the kids but end up on my own ) but I like to take it slow. What's the rush anyway. People will tell me buy a lvl 2 rocket and use it for lvl 1. Why ? I'd rather build two !!!

In those two years I built maybe 12 rockets from Estes, Quest, Apogee, Rocketarium and Aerotech. I learn to use cartboard, balsa, plywood, plastic. So as wood glue, super glue, epoxy. I learned to paper fin, use wood filler, airfoil fins. I bought a small altimeter ( 3 to be exact cause i keep loosing them...), a camera and a chute release. I learned basic aerodynamic and using open rocket. I just start mid power ( flew some F and I have a G78 but the damn weather wont collaborate ) and of course i am aiming at high power but I am enjoying the ride to get there.

Next step for me is fiberglass ( mach 1 sale coming soon [emoji2] ) , reloadable and maybe dual deploy .

But I will take my time and enjoy every aspect of this wonderful hobby.

 

[jlabrasca]

There's no shame in cardboard.

I should say not!

Maybe it's just my LPR-oriented view of the world, but I can't quite get the desire to jump straight to an L1 build without learning on any smaller stuff first...

As a more experienced flier once remarked to me, when I wondered aloud about the wisdom of some scheme that I was about to deploy half-baked and ill-considered (paraphrasing): "We all drove out to the actual middle of nowhere to shoot big rockets at nothing. No part of this is a 'good idea'".

This conversation took place while we walked back through the sage brush towards the flight line, one of us with a rocket, the other empty-handed.

 

[PoweredBySoy]

When you've done enough BP, check out the Aerotech Single Use F32T, should be a hoot and no hardware investment.

Haha. I love this idea. I'll have like a little farewell ceremony right before launch.

 

[OverTheTop]

I started on D motors. Decent size and you an fly in local parks. Learn how to pack chutes and recovery methods. Build techniques are similar also, just lighter materials than the bigger birds.

I flew one or two E motors then jumped straight to H. Sounds like big jumps, but it wasn't in a short time.

My suggestion is to not rush the journey. Have fun and keep thinking along the way, and I don't mean just about the goal of L1, L2 etc...

Enjoy!

 

[jlabrasca]

Haha. I love this idea. I'll have like a little farewell ceremony right before launch.

If THIS is the rocket you ordered, it looks like the motor mount is designed for 96 x 24mm motors (Estes E motors). You'd need to omit the motor block and motor hook to load the F32.

You might not lose it on an F32.

OpenRocket puts apogee at about 740 meters, at which altitude the rocket would subtend a maximum angle of about 0.03° as it nosed over -- just at the limit of resolution for healthy young eyes. With some good spotters, on a clear day, you could get it back. The recovery might be a long walk, and it would be a good idea to load some tracking powder and a long piece of surveyor's tape or mylar with a small parachute. Also, put your name and NAR number on it.

 

[tomsteve]

a kit to think about for L1:
5.5 LOC mini magg upgraded to 54mmt. with a motor mount adapter, you can do L1 cert and have a lot of L1 flights with 38mmm L1( think theres some 54mm L1 cesaroni and aerotech motors,too).
then when ready for L2, get another section of BT , a coupler, and bulkhead and ya have a great L2 rocket.



we can spend a disposable income pretty quicklike.

 

[tomsteve]

Well, gentlemen, you successfully squashed an old mans dreams. I hope you're happy!


(excited to get this little guy in the mail)

might be able to get them dreams back for ya :
looks like off we go rocketry is rather local to ya.
https://www.offwegorocketry.com/

 

[milehigh]

This may sound a bit silly at first glance, but get a copy of The Handbook of Model Rocketry by G.H. and Bill Stine. Read it forward, backward, and upside down. Even though geared more for LPR, the book is chock-full of pertinent information about rocket building and flying in general. Much of the basic technique described in the book can carry over into MPR, at least. There is a also a chapter briefly describing high power.

 

[PoweredBySoy]

might be able to get them dreams back for ya :
looks like off we go rocketry is rather local to ya.
https://www.offwegorocketry.com/

Yeah, I found this place yesterday while looking for some local motors. Are they reputable? They look to carry some high-end stuff, but the website and the "by appointment" thing deterred me. Also, I was looking for some E9-8's, which weren't listed. So I ended up just driving to Hub Hobby over lunch and picking up a couple D12-7's (apparently E9-8 is hard to find). I just wanted to get something in hand so I could launch the rocket when it's done.

Later on though I found an Amazon seller that sold E9-8's, and they didn't charge a HAZ fee. I'm not sure how they can do that, but this morning it looks like it shipped!

 

[samb]

...

Later on though I found an Amazon seller that sold E9-8's, and they didn't charge a HAZ fee. I'm not sure how they can do that, but this morning it looks like it shipped!

They do it by ignoring the regs concerning shipping hazardous material through the mail that legitimate motor sellers follow. A big deal in the Grand Scheme ? IDK. I say “just say No.”

 

[BDB]

Yeah, I found this place yesterday while looking for some local motors. Are they reputable? They look to carry some high-end stuff, but the website and the "by appointment" thing deterred me. Also, I was looking for some E9-8's, which weren't listed. So I ended up just driving to Hub Hobby over lunch and picking up a couple D12-7's (apparently E9-8 is hard to find). I just wanted to get something in hand so I could launch the rocket when it's done.

Later on though I found an Amazon seller that sold E9-8's, and they didn't charge a HAZ fee. I'm not sure how they can do that, but this morning it looks like it shipped!

Estes E9's are being discontinued, so they may be difficult to find going forward. You may be better off looking into Aerotech E15 and E30 single use motors. I think the D12 is the best motor Estes ever made, but once you try those AP motors, you'll be well on your way towards HPR.

 

[jlabrasca]

Later on though I found an Amazon seller that sold E9-8's, and they didn't charge a HAZ fee. I'm not sure how they can do that, but this morning it looks like it shipped!

OpenRocket throws a "recovery device deployment at high speed" warning for both the the E12-8 and E9-8.

Look at the manufacture date before you load the E9s.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/estes-e9-4-e9-6-cato-pics.131561/

https://barc775.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/estes-mtr-failures.pdf

As BDB says, Aerotech makes composite Es that will fit.

 

[neil_w]

I would likewise guess that a D12-7 would be out of bounds. Better a D12-5 or maybe even a D12-3. That's just from eyeballing it, though, haven't downloaded the sim.

 

[PoweredBySoy]

They do it by ignoring the regs concerning shipping hazardous material through the mail that legitimate motor sellers follow. A big deal in the Grand Scheme ? IDK. I say “just say No.”

Ahhhh. That sucks. Yeah, I'll support the good guys going forward. You'd think this is something that could get them fined though....

edit: Supreme Hobbies is the seller. Maybe karma will get me and these will end up blowing up my rocket.

OpenRocket throws a "recovery device deployment at high speed" warning for both the the E12-8 and E9-8.

The E9-8 is what Madcow recommended for the rocket. /shrug

Look at the manufacture date before you load the E9s.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/estes-e9-4-e9-6-cato-pics.131561/

https://barc775.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/estes-mtr-failures.pdf

Yikes. Thanks for the warning.

 

[Bat-mite]

Ahhhh. That sucks. Yeah, I'll support the good guys going forward. You'd think this is something that could get them fined though....

Yep. All it is takes is someone to squeal, or else an incident like an explosion in a hot delivery truck. There used to be a hobby store online from which I bought AT SU G80s with no HAZ. I honestly didn't know there was such a thing at that time. After a few orders from them, they closed up shop. I always wondered why....

 

[jlabrasca]

The E9-8 is what Madcow recommended for the rocket. /shrug

Yikes. Thanks for the warning.

Yeah, I am not sure about that simulation. Its the RockSim file downloaded from the Madcow site, and opened in OpenRocket. It opened up with two 18mm motor configurations already loaded.

That 740 meter apogee I reported for the F32 is bad. I used the wrong s/u F32 motor -- which is why I thought it wouldn't fit the motor tube. I was in the shop this morning and pulled one out to measure. The F32T is 95mm long. Sim'ed with this motor, it only rises to 510 meters <smile>

On a F30FJ (a smokey motor, to help you keep track), apogee at about 380 meters.

I arrived at this September's OROC high power launch just in time to see an E9 CATO. It was surprisingly loud.

 

[samb]

Ahhhh. That sucks. Yeah, I'll support the good guys going forward. You'd think this is something that could get them fined though....

...

.

You see it on Amazon and eBay often enough. Can’t really say about enforcement. I just wanted to answer your question since you’re new and you asked. I hate paying “The Man” as much as the next guy and I know our motor vendors would rather not deal with the hazmat “tax”.