Moving into DD: Black powder storage, regulations, confusion

[wfcook]

I've been doing a lot of searching around here trying to determine whether I need some sort of permit to purchase, posess, transport, handle, etc. black powder and e-matches for dual deployment. I've read Bob Krech's post on the subject as well as this thread and it would seem that I do.

It is, however, difficult to determine exactly where to go to find out current and definitive information about this. Most discouraging is a lack of easy-to-find information on the Triploi and NAR web sites. This Tripoli page contains a broken link to the ATF web-site. This one appears to be very out of date. Same goes for the NAR information because I have read many places (such as here) that the LEUP as such no longer exists.

I am new to this area of the hobby and want to do it safely and legally, but so far I'm succeeding only in confusing myself by reading a lot of out-of-date information. My hunting friends are of no help because they can handle BP without permits it would seem.

Going to the ATF web-site is even more confusing. Possibly intentionally so.

So, from someone who actually knows the answers for sure, I would really love an answer to the following questions. Any links or pointers to the actual applicable sections of the regulations are appreciated:

(1) Is there a good summary of this all somewhere that I have missed?
(2) What permits do I need to handle purchase, posess, store, transport, etc. small quantities of black powder (I assume FFFFg)
(3) What are the storage requirements? What kind of magazine do I actually need?
(4) Is there anything else that I need to know but don't appear to know that I need to know.

Thanks for any help. I hope this doesn't leave me more confused...

 

[wfcook]

Also:

(5) What is a good option for a storage magazine? The ones I am finding appear to be geared towards the storage of fairly large quantities of the stuff. For example the one at Cabela's can hold 50 one pound cans. I don't need or want a box that can do that. Isn't there a cheaper and/or smaller option?

 

[tmacklin]

I've been doing a lot of searching around here trying to determine whether I need some sort of permit to purchase, posess, transport, handle, etc. black powder and e-matches for dual deployment. I've read Bob Krech's post on the subject as well as this thread and it would seem that I do.

It is, however, difficult to determine exactly where to go to find out current and definitive information about this. Most discouraging is a lack of easy-to-find information on the Triploi and NAR web sites. This Tripoli page contains a broken link to the ATF web-site. This one appears to be very out of date. Same goes for the NAR information because I have read many places (such as here) that the LEUP as such no longer exists.

I am new to this area of the hobby and want to do it safely and legally, but so far I'm succeeding only in confusing myself by reading a lot of out-of-date information. My hunting friends are of no help because they can handle BP without permits it would seem.

Going to the ATF web-site is even more confusing. Possibly intentionally so.

So, from someone who actually knows the answers for sure, I would really love an answer to the following questions. Any links or pointers to the actual applicable sections of the regulations are appreciated:

(1) Is there a good summary of this all somewhere that I have missed?
(2) What permits do I need to handle purchase, posess, store, transport, etc. small quantities of black powder (I assume FFFFg)
(3) What are the storage requirements? What kind of magazine do I actually need?
(4) Is there anything else that I need to know but don't appear to know that I need to know.

Thanks for any help. I hope this doesn't leave me more confused...

Bill, I find this https://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/08/081106-atf-ruling-on-hobby-rockets.html especially informative. Click on the last link in the text. :wink:

 

[mikemech]

Bill, I find this https://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/08/081106-atf-ruling-on-hobby-rockets.html especially informative. Click on the last link in the text. :wink:

That link gives me a sepia photo of someone I do not recognize. Inside joke? Or a government website.

 

[GregGleason]

Also:

(5) What is a good option for a storage magazine? The ones I am finding appear to be geared towards the storage of fairly large quantities of the stuff. For example the one at Cabela's can hold 50 one pound cans. I don't need or want a box that can do that. Isn't there a cheaper and/or smaller option?

See https://blog.skylighter.com/fireworks/2009/06/fireworking-safety-and-law.html

While on the page, search for "How to Make a Legal, Type 4 Indoor Magazine".

Greg

 

[JohnCoker]

While on the page, search for "How to Make a Legal, Type 4 Indoor Magazine".

We were all doing this in the days of motor regulation, but such a huge magazine seems overkill for electric matches and black powder.

 

[DuaneW]

The cheapest way I've found to build a type 4 indoor magazine is to go to your local newspaper printer and ask for an old small newspaper delivery box. ( Mine cost ~$40) These are made out of 1/8" thick steel. Line the interior with 1/4" plywood and epoxy a layer of fiberglass tape over the interior rim. (spark resistant layer for when the lid opens and closes) Weld on some hasps and lock hoods and you're done for under $60,.00.

 

[wfcook]

Wow, Ted, amazing that they haven't cleaned that link up.

 

[GregGleason]

We were all doing this in the days of motor regulation, but such a huge magazine seems overkill for electric matches and black powder.

I agree. The regs do not specify the minimum size, but because of the requirements for locks about the smallest size that's practical would be about the size of a shoebox. AFAIK, no one makes one of those. But that would be the size that most of us would need for a can of BP and e-matches. You can have multiple storage lockers, too.

A link to the ATF regs: https://www.armagcorp.com/pdfs/Code of Federal Regulations Title27 Ch2 SubpartK.pdf#page=4

Greg

 

[wfcook]

I'm getting the feeling that I have opened up an unwelcome can of worms here...

 

[samb]

I'm getting the feeling that I have opened up an unwelcome can of worms here...

Yeah, sometimes TRF is not the best resource. How 'bout this: seek out some local HP and/or EX flyers and ask them what they do. But I think bobkrech's list was definitive; the current regs require special handling for black powder (outside of what is included with reload kits) and e-matches.

 

[tmacklin]

That link gives me a sepia photo of someone I do not recognize. Inside joke? Or a government website.

I don't have a clue. I went to the ATF website to see if I could help Bill, and followed their link. Maybe they were hacked? Or maybe they've just been busy putting out fires they started...like Fast & Furious? They're with the gumint and they're here to help.

 

[tmacklin]

Now that right there is some good information! In the meantime I take my flintlock replica single shot pistol with me just in case I run into a rattlesnake out on the range. :kill:

See GregGleason at post # 5

 

[tmacklin]

I just right clicked on the mysterious photograph and got this: https://www.atf.gov/content/about/o...st/character-profiles/william-henderson-foote I guess they couldn't locate a photo of Bryan Terry or Nicholas J. Ivie, https://fusion.net/justice/story/border-patrol-agent-killed-arizona-patrol-station-named-15312.

 

[tmacklin]

I while back, before I lost interest, I was looking for an ATF approved box and found this: https://mainepowderhouse.com/powder-storage-safe/ The price has gone up since I first looked just as everything else has gone up, but $208 is a lot less than all of the tools needed to build your own. Even if you comply with all the federal regs there's no guarantee you'll comply with the state and local laws, especially if you live in an urban environment. Since the ejection charges involved in hobby rocketry are typically less than 2 grams, one pound would provide you with at least enough for 200 parachute deployments. The laws concerning black powder are absurd and have never deterred either a terrorist or other criminal, simply because criminals don't obey laws. :rant:

 

[jderimig]

OP,

The answer to all your questions lies with your local ATF branch. Not the internet, TRF or even the ATF website. Find the number of your local ATF Field office from the ATF website and give them a call. They will be very helpful (note a joke).

 

[tmacklin]

OP,

The answer to all your questions lies with your local ATF branch. Not the internet, TRF or even the ATF website. Find the number of your local ATF Field office from the ATF website and give them a call. They will be very helpful (note a joke).

I have no doubt that what you state is the correct avenue. It also represents sort of a new twist on Judge Roy Bean's Law West of the Pecos and yet another example of a burgeoning Police State in America. I hope Bill is fortunate enough to have a reasonable chief at his local ATF branch.

 

[wfcook]

Yes, it is not at all clear to me that my local ATF branch will have all the answers. My experience to date with a number of issues has been that government officials have little interest in helping you and will not put anything in writing, and that you are responsible for knowing better if they provide you with incorrect information. Going to them might only have the effect of giving them something to do on the weekend of the next launch, which would not be popular. I wish I did not have as much reason to be skeptical as I do.

 

[tmacklin]

I have trouble trusting in a governmental agency that is notorious in its apparent contempt for the rule of law. I believe that the key reason Judge Walton ruled in favor of the plaintiffs in the TRA/NAR lawsuit was that he grew increasingly frustrated with the ATF's obfuscation of the facts and outright lies. This is not to disparage those agents who diligently exercise their legitimate law enforcement duties, nor the courage of those agents who have risked their careers by whistle blowing. But if we are to remain a nation governed by the rule of law we cannot have individual agents in diverse jurisdictions exercising their individual judgement. This is rule by whim rather than rule by law, in my opinion.

 

[o1d_dude]

I agree with Tmack the Texan.

Even the Federal General Accounting Office states that 1 out 3 Federal employees is incompetent. From my own personal experience I think the GAO's estimate is on the low side.

OP: Are you absolutely positive you don't have a flintlock pistol or smoke pole laying around somewhere? I know for a fact that I do.

 

[CarVac]

This is why I am constantly thinking of ways I can implement spring powered deployment, with no bp involved at all.

(I am not at all interested in owning a gun)

Perhaps breaking apart at apogee powered by a spring, and a pilot chute that gets spit out by another spring that pulls the main out of a deployment bag. No bp, no problem. Maybe.

(Incidentally it would need no shear pins...)

 

[tmacklin]

This is why I am constantly thinking of ways I can implement spring powered deployment, with no bp involved at all.

(I am not at all interested in owning a gun)

Perhaps breaking apart at apogee powered by a spring, and a pilot chute that gets spit out by another spring that pulls the main out of a deployment bag. No bp, no problem. Maybe.

(Incidentally it would need no shear pins...)

Think about deployment via a piston which is actuated by a unleashing a bungee under tension, which is restrained by a fusible link (such as a monofilament fishing line) that is severed by a hot wire at apogee, pushing the laundry into the airflow. I built a static model of just such a device a few of years ago (showed it to Doug Sams) but haven't pursued the idea since. But I love the smell of gunpowder in the morning and own several guns.

Nugent Rules!

 

[samb]

Well we all wait and work for a better world and lament the evil in our times. But after 21 posts here and countless past threads on the subject are you any closer to your goal ? I still believe getting advice from locals who have been down the road is your best play. Any clubs in your area ? Otherwise I think John's advice in post #16 is sound. <full disclosure> I have no personal experience dealing with the ATF but my future son-in-law is a U.S. marshal and I'm hoping he will bail me out if needed. </full disclosure>.

 

[CarVac]

Think about deployment via a piston which is actuated by a unleashing a bungee under tension, which is restrained by a fusible link (such as a monofilament fishing line) that is severed by a hot wire at apogee, pushing the laundry into the airflow. I built a static model of just such a device a few of years ago (showed it to Doug Sams) but haven't pursued the idea since. But I love the smell of gunpowder in the morning and own several guns.

Nugent Rules!

I'm trying to come up with a design that is a) simpler, and b) more compact. Bungees...that'd be hard to do compactly.

 

[JohnCoker]

I'm trying to come up with a design that is a) simpler, and b) more compact. Bungees...that'd be hard to do compactly.

Some deployment schemes use springs. (And not to mention CO2 systems.)

 

[CarVac]

Some deployment schemes use springs. (And not to mention CO2 systems.)

Are there any entirely non-pyro CO2 systems?

Also if it were entirely spring based, then there'd be no expenses on the flight aside from the motor...

 

[tmacklin]

I'm trying to come up with a design that is a) simpler, and b) more compact. Bungees...that'd be hard to do compactly.

Rubber bands, tension springs, compression spring could all be restrained one way or another by a 30 lb test nylon filament, which melts almost instantly with the current from a 9 volt battery run through a 30 GA nichrome hot wire. When I get a chance I'll start a new post with pictures of my abandoned proof of concept contraption.

A man named Jon Dranya first came up with this concept a good while back and possibly applied for a patent. He called his device "HANEES" for "Heat Actuated Non-Explosive Ejection System" and it was part of his Bravo Niner sugar motor kit, now defunct. I think the ATF must have paid him a friendly visit. I saw an ad for his kit in Rockets Magazine but never bought the kit. Here https://www.privatedata.com/byb/rocketry/octoberscience.pdf is the link.

Necessity is the Mother of Invention, and the ATF are some of the biggest Mothers on the block. (Especially when it comes to the original composite propellant...black powder.)

Finally found it! https://www.polytechforum.com/rocke...-system-offered-by-october-science-21194-.htm Goodnight boys and girls.