Igniters and Federal Low Explosives User Permit

[Firebrick43]

I am building a dual deploy rocket for my level 2 and have a legal and technical question.

Several places I have seen sellers of MJG igniters claim its the only non regulated igniter and therefore has to use blue/white wire per the ATF.


The non regulated part makes some sense but I am curious as to why its non regulated.

The blue white wire required by the ATF sounds like total and utter marketing doo doo.



SO, if other igniters are regulated, how are they? I have been searching but all I see is that "they are regulated"

It appears that retailers of the orange wire igniters are more than willing to sell you them over the internet without a peep about having a LEUP.

Its seems odd as smokeless powder and primers that I purchase in bulk qualities for reloading require at least a state photo ID to be on file to do so and as long as you have under 50 lbs in a residence(above 20 needs to be in a wood magazine)

 

[-Slick-Ice]

Because they sent their design to the ATF and the ATF determined it wasn't regulated.

Black Powder has exemptions for use in antique firearms from the ATF but these don't apply to model rockets. Motor manufacturers would have gone through a similar approval process for motors they produce (including DMS/RMS that include a measured amount of black powder).

There are a lot of regulations involved in storing, using, and transportaton - Federal (BATFE, NFPA, DOT, FAA) and possibly state or local laws. I would recommend seeking legal advice from someone who is qualified to provide it.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

MJG Firewires are the only non regulated ematches. They worked with ATFE to reformulate the pyrogen. The blue & white wires are indicators of this. All others contain explosive materials and are regulated.

 

[Firebrick43]

MJG Firewires are the only non regulated ematches. They worked with ATFE to reformulate the pyrogen. The blue & white wires are indicators of this. All others contain explosive materials and are regulated.

Ok, but how are they regulated?

Does it mean anything to the end user of HPR? Several companies selling orange wire ematches are not asking for licenses or even stating what the requirements are?

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Ok, but how are they regulated?

Does it mean anything to the end user of HPR? Several companies selling orange wire ematches are not asking for licenses or even stating what the requirements are?

Except for Firewires, the rest need an ATF explosives license to buy or store. See the electric match web site for Firewires compared to J-Tek ematches. Bought a bunch of J-Teks when I had a license. For paperwork, each J-Tek contains 40 mg of explosive. Send a pm if you want more details.

 

[rcktnut]

Ok, but how are they regulated?

Does it mean anything to the end user of HPR? Several companies selling orange wire ematches are not asking for licenses or even stating what the requirements are?

You don't need an ATF license to buy or store them. Buy whatever ones you want. Just be a good boy with them and you will be fine. ATF don't realize yet that if you want to do something nefarious with them, just as easily done with MJG, Estes igniters or bare nichrome wire.
Or maybe the ATF does realize that if you want to do something nefarious with them, just as easily done with MJG, Estes igniters or bare nichrome wire. That's why is long as you're a good boy with them they leave you alone.

 

[prfesser]

Ok, but how are they regulated?

Does it mean anything to the end user of HPR? Several companies selling orange wire ematches are not asking for licenses or even stating what the requirements are?

Theoretically, BATFE could ask for your license/permit if you have, or have purchased, unregulated matches. They could come to a big launch and arrest a bunch of flyers. And they'd look like pluperfect fools, arresting people for milligrams of material on an ematch while ignoring (because they HAVE to) tens of pounds of APCP.

My opinion only, not related to NAR or TRA policies in any way: BATFE simply isn't interested. They're interested in people who have large amounts of questionable material and are obviously planning to do bad things. That's what gets those federal funds flowing. The guy who buys fifty ematches from China isn't going to get attention unless he tries to do Something Very Bad with them. Again, it's just my opinion.

However...if one has ANY concerns...unregulated ematches are a cheap way to avoid problems from federal authorities.

For DD however, you'd better be d*mn certain that your ematches will pop out the chutes. Making your own, or buying matches that are questionable, is false economy compared to two bucks for two unregulated ematches.

 

[cbrarick]

I use unregulated ematches. I got them from MJG and they say they're unregulated, and give the backstory on their website. Good enough for me. If they lied (I really doubt this) then I plead ignorance, I did my homework to the extent that I could, and have it in writing. I second not making ematches. It's not worth the risk. MJG has really good quality control, I've never had one fail. saving cents on the ematch seems like a bad insurance on a expensive rocket. Yes, I know there are people who make their own, and like doing it, but no thanks...)

You don't need a lawyer. That's, IMHO a foolish waste of money. How much would a lawyer who specializes in ATF regulation cost? I'm willing to bet you'd drop thousands. This is unnecessary. Take a deep breath, the sky is not falling. I've hauled the unregulated MJG all over the country (literally) and am totally unworried about my ematches.

Think about it, you get stopped, but your ematches and whatever else is in your range box. The cop looks into the car, sees the rockets and probably wants to know what's up with that because they have only seen estes stuff. The cop probably won't even ask to see what's in your range box and really has no reason to toss your entire car trying to get you in a twist over a ematch. Even if it were on the dashboard, most wouldn't even know what it is. Those that do probably would recognize the color and know it's unregulated. BATF/DOT/NFPA?
NFPA - I'm glad the poster can identify them but NFPA has no jurisdiction anywhere nor do they have boots on the ground anywhere. they merely make suggested regulations. It's up to the state fire marshal to implement and enforce. I've chatted with ours, and he's so disinterested we're still flying on the 1996 NFPA regulations, and he has no interest in updating them ("Too busy with important things to waste my time on that.")
ATF has boots on the ground but have given the OK on this one.
DOT - it's responsibility is "The Department of Transportation is responsible for planning and coordinating federal transportation projects. It also sets safety regulations for all major modes of transportation." To the best of my understanding this is then delegated to the state level. In my state, DOT will plow your roads but you won't see a DOT officer except in truck safety enforcement (weigh stations)

your biggest risk of running into any enforcement will be state or local police -- see above -- and drive smart. Keep to the speed limit, don't do things that attract attention and you will probably never get pulled over. Even if you do, thay won't see anything and you can truthfully say you're only going to fly rockets and hauling the stuff you need to do so. If you're speeding, take your ticket and move on. Cops don't toss cars for laughs. Being on the highway is dangerous enough that a cop looking at a bunch of grown-up toys is going to move right along. He may laugh with his buddies because he thinks our hobby is silly, but so be it.

 

[Tractionengines]

Ok, but how are they regulated?

Does it mean anything to the end user of HPR? Several companies selling orange wire ematches are not asking for licenses or even stating what the requirements are?

If the package their shipping to you in causes a fire, the law enforcement will be looking at who is on both ends of the shipment... 99.9% of time not an issue, but why chance it to save a few cents, and have less quality control.

 

[mtnmanak]

Just hide your ematches under your weed. It throws off the scent when they bring out the ematch sniffing dogs.

 

[electricmatch]

Sorry I'm late to this thread, but yes we are the only non regulated match in the industry. I can't tell you how we got it, or our secret herbs and spices, but on every full box of our initiators it states that under the ATF code 18USC to why they are not regulated. Even though the code is vague and won't lead you to how either. We also have a letter from the ATF stating they are not regulated. In regards to the color, yes we did that so the atf could know upon walking on a field the difference between ours and the orange imported ones. However like everything else, china is starting to steal that too. Beware of imitations, as it is buyer beware. As I tell people, you can buy heroin online, it doesn't make it legal. Our gov't who "has our best interest in mind" (please hear the sarcasm) can't fine or get money from overseas, but they can fine Americans. I don't see jail time, however the overseas igniters break IATA laws(if they flew) and DOT laws (by ground) and ATF laws (by possession of low explosives). Hopefully this helps, but we also have a page dedicated to all legal options here. As always, feel free to call or email us with any questions. We will answer what we can.