Lack of Interest In Contest Flying

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:
Ah Mr Rocket: When was the last time CATO held a contest?
Click to expand...

Years ago. In order to have one, you need people interested enough to
  • Participate
  • Run the event
There is no way a local club is going to say "Hey folks today we are having a contest and we will be picking people to run it at random (and will confiscate your car keys until you do). The rest of you will compete and we will keep your car keys until we determine that you have satisfactorily enjoyed yourselves. First place can go home on time and the bottom finishers have to clean up the range."

While I am no longer with CATO (geography change) - I doubt that you have reached out to them. That outfit will bend over backwards to accommodate almost any reasonable request. They support TARC, The CAP, and SLI. This is on you, not on the clubs or or New Englanders. Find some people who want to compete (or are even interested enough to try). Approach CMASS, RIMRA, or CATO and offer to run the event. CATO was at one time points leader in several categories. The people who were active competitors lost interest or moved away and sport flying took over. And for the record, one of the per-eminent HPR clubs (MDRA) actually had a contest in the middle of a Red Glare event. The contest folks ran their event while 6" projects with O impulse motors were launching.

By the way, I've not seen no evidence of contest flying in Texas (Except for TARC, CANSAT, SLI, and Spaceport Cup).

And Kenn - Unless mister Foxtrot wants to climb out from behind his username and then step up to actually do something besides gripe, I call Troll (though they have to be the only troll with taped together glasses, a pocket protector, and lifetime membership in the Pink Book Weenie AV Club.)
 
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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:
There are three NAR sanctioned clubs in my general area and when I visited them to consider joining, all three strongly said that they were NOT interested in holding contests of any kind. Since that was their choice, I didn't join. Please tell me the best way to change their minds. I've been in and out of the hobby because I grew sick and tired of whoosh, pop, wash, rinse and repeat.
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OK . . . This is what I would do.

(1) Attend the launches and fly some "full-on" competition 1/2 BG, A RG, & C-D Egglofters, on a regular basis. Use SMALL motors, as Competition models, especially gliders, are very high performance and will easily "fly away" on small fields (sometimes, big ones, too ! )

(2) Keep it up, every month, and talk to every kid on the field you can about what you are doing, and the fun & satisfaction of Competition. Ask them to help you prep rockets to fly, also !

(3) Contact some Manufacturers and get them to donate some inexpensive "door prizes", to be used as Prizes in contests, later on. ( Not just rocket stuff, X-Acto sets, etc. )

(4) Using the rockets the kids already have, organize an informal "fun-fly" competition ( Spot Landing, Predicted duration, etc )

(5) Keep this going, trying to increase interest, month after month . . . Eventually, it will become a "regular feature" at all launches.

(6) Gradually introduce an "Adult-Child" team event, to bring parents / guardians into the mix. You MUST get the Adults involved, as they supply the Kids' access to rockets and supplies. Show them that scratch-building can be much less expensive than buying kits and that it helps develop their child's "creativity" . . . You MUST get them "on board" !

(7) Hold "build sessions", where the group of Competitors can learn new techniques, share ideas, and learn from each other. Encourage "competitiveness", as a way to build skills that will help them in all areas of Rocketry.

(9) Volunteer to be Contest Director and start holding formal contests . . . Promote it through local hobby / craft stores, online, and anywhere else you can "get the word out" !

(10) Keep pushing and promoting . . . You must keep interest alive, at all costs !

Dave Fitch

NAR 26128 L2 ( since 1974 )
 
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I have volunteered to be our Contest Director to our club President for the next season which I believe starts on 4 August 2019. I have a few ideas but will keep them secret until they've been approved by the club.
 
I'm not quite prepared to bring the "TROLL" hammer down on the op yet. He clearly named his adversaries - New England NAR section leadership who don't run regular contests (ya know, like every section did back in 1969) and model rocketeers who treat model rockets as fireworks and go to restaurants and drink beer. Many trolls aren't nearly that focused. Whisky, I don't know how to change minds and if the DIY and lobbying type suggestions offered by many responders here don't resonate with you then I'm afraid you might be looking at another round of "sick and tired".


Sam B
NAR #86691
DARS #308 VP
 
How can you approach NAR club leadership and offer to be a contest director when they've made it abundantly clear that they would rather
not do any contest flying? It seems to me that most people who responded fall under that category.
 
Let me relate an experience I had with club flying. I was building and flying a scale model to get my Nartrek Silver award. I brought the model to the launch site with a evaluation sheet that Peter Alway uses to judge scale model. I asked around and no one was willing to evaluate the model. It sits on my shelf and my Nartrek Silver award goes unfinished. I said "bye bye" to that club shortly afterwards, I'd rather fly alone, tyvm.
 
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:
How can you approach NAR club leadership and offer to be a contest director when they've made it abundantly clear that they would rather
not do any contest flying? It seems to me that most people who responded fall under that category.
Click to expand...

From this thread:
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:
Do you guys do any contest flying?
Click to expand...

KennB said:
Not on a regular basis. Anyone who wants to look into starting and running such a things in the club are welcome to ask around.

The best place to ask would be on the forum of the club website.
Click to expand...
I think your initial approach was fine. It would have been nice if you had waited for a response before starting this thread slamming the clubs in your area.
 
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:
How can you approach NAR club leadership and offer to be a contest director when they've made it abundantly clear that they would rather not do any contest flying? It seems to me that most people who responded fall under that category.
Click to expand...

Simple . . .

Tell them that all they have to do is RSO the models and "push the launch button".

You will handle all promotion / advertising, data recording, record-keeping, and award the prizes !

Dave F.
 
Let's be real about this Mr Blade: CMASS CATO and RIMRA have no interest in flying competition. In RIMRA's case, they haven't been around for awhile. Okay. However, by the obvious lack of any recent competition flying, there can be no doubt that there's no real interest at CATO or CMASS. Like I said: RIMRA was approached and said politely, but firmly, "NO"
 
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:
Let's be real about this Mr Blade: CMASS CATO and RIMRA have no interest in flying competition. In RIMRA's case, they haven't been around for awhile. Okay. However, by the obvious lack of any recent competition flying, there can be no doubt that there's no real interest at CATO or CMASS. Like I said: RIMRA was approached and said politely, but firmly, "NO"
Click to expand...

I call BS on at least part of this. I know the folks at CATO would have never turned down a NARTREK flight. They might not have known what to do. That group will bend over backwards to assist anyone in any event. If there is only one person who walks up and wants to fly contest, then expect the club to be a bit fuzzy on the rules. If you expect to walk up and have the event set up for you so you can get your award and stroll off then, yup, you were going to be disappointed. I know the same is true for CMASS - in any case they are primarily an LPR club and provide HPR as a courtesy to us big motor junkies. RIMRA is a new outfit and they are feeling their way around though I am not sure I buy your story.

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:
One last question: How many current members of CATO, RIMRA or CMASS have ever competed at a NARAM?
Click to expand...

Zack Lau, John, Zack, and Alyssa Stenberg (Alyssa Stenberg was an S8 finalist at the WSMC), Ulf Jonsson, Bill Dauphin drives stupid distances every year to go and compete at NARAM. I am primarily a L2 flyer and NARAM is on my bucket list when it ever makes it to a place convenient enough for me to travel to. Hell, I'll even build something to compete with. I have a design for a G Flexi to set the record

No, this is about you - not the clubs. Step up and help a club make this happen or go fly by yourself. You show no interest in promoting the activity, just a desire complain that nobody has the welcome mat rolled out and a contest environment set up for your convenience. You can charter a section with a handful of people and make it all contest - all the time. Or is that too much work for you?

[/end soap box rant]
 
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H_Rocket said:
No, this is about you - not the clubs.

[/end soap box rant]
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure everyone sees that. Whiskeytangowhatever/bigrijoe is a combo of the worst characteristics of a millennial and a grumpy old man.
 
As the current VP of CATO and the former President, thenlast time CATO had a contest was last year. Making a blanket statement that all the clubs said NO is just NOT TRUE, so stop belly aching. I'd you want to hold a contest then run it. The problem.with most clubs is the 80 / 20 rule. 20% of us, or even less in most cases, do the majority of the work including setting up the field and breakdown, equipment maintenance, RDO, LCO, pad managers etc and the remaing people.like you show up after everything is set up , leave before breakdown, don't help with any range duty, and then have the gall to say we don't cater to your individual need?
 
So, the basic question is how do you get clubs that haven't flown NAR Competition in decades to be willing to try to reincarnate the "Golden Age of Model Rocketry" ?

I think my post ( #32 ) pretty much says it all . . .

If you want it bad enough, get out there and do it, without expecting the Club Leadership to do everything for you.

If it becomes popular, great . . . If not, either try harder or admit that the "past is gone".

Dave F.
 
Club involvement is mostly irrelevant under the new rules. The rules make it such that you only need one other person participating. Time each others flights. No need to get the club involved at all if they don't want to be involved. Two people probably could pull off an NRC meet at a launch and be completely under the radar. No one would know.

This isn't a strategy that I need to use, because my NAR Section doesn't mind if someone wants to time a flight and write the number down on a piece of paper, or do the same with an altitude flight. Just pointing out that club involvement in "flying competition" is not a prerequisite to participating in the NRC.
 
Ok... so I came across this thread and from my experience growing up there was no club I was aware of in my area since it was prehistoric times and there were only earth orbital flights at the time punctuated by occasional probes to Venus and Mars.

What I can definitively say is: I get way more satisfaction out of being at a group launch than I ever did flying alone. It's a good thing to be with birds of a feather where you can have chats about technique and exchange ideas. You sure don't get any of the camaraderie by flying alone... the social aspects are half the fun. But in my case, the efforts I put in are at improving my results each time I fly... isn't that "contest" flying, only without the ego part of it?
 
DeltaVee said:
Ok... so I came across this thread and from my experience growing up there was no club I was aware of in my area since it was prehistoric times and there were only earth orbital flights at the time punctuated by occasional probes to Venus and Mars.

What I can definitively say is: I get way more satisfaction out of being at a group launch than I ever did flying alone. It's a good thing to be with birds of a feather where you can have chats about technique and exchange ideas. You sure don't get any of the camaraderie by flying alone... the social aspects are half the fun. But in my case, the efforts I put in are at improving my results each time I fly... isn't that "contest" flying, only without the ego part of it?
Click to expand...

Improving your own results are good for self-esteem, to an extent . . . However, you have nothing to compare them to.

Directly comparing your results, head to head, with the results of others is "Competition", where there are winners and losers.

In Competition, self-esteem comes from being a "gracious winner" and striving to improve your results, if you are defeated, rather than giving up."Ego" is when a Competitor gets a "swelled head" . . . LOL !

Competition teaches ethics, self-esteem, plus motivation to improve and achieve excellence . . . All good "lessons in life" for the real world, where it is "sink or swim" !

Dave F.
 
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dr wogz said:
start flying AMA or IMAC
Click to expand...

I used to fly IMAC. I competed for a couple of years. It was fun but then I started to not have time to practice and when I stop seeing improvement in my flying I tend to not enjoy it as much.

I always had fun at the contests, though! Usually the evening camping festivities were a great time!
 
Ez2cDave said:
Competition teaches ethics, self-esteem, plus motivation to improve and achieve excellence . . . All good "lessons in life" for the real world, where it is "sink or swim" !
Dave F.
Click to expand...

Dave: this is not directed at you, just a blanket statement.

Ethics- people will do anything and everything unethical to win. In auto racing they hide things everywhere so the inspectors don't notice them. In pro sports the list is way too long to name all those that have been caught "cheating " by using banned drugs to gain an "unfair" advantage.

Self-Esteem- if there are 10 people in a competition and 9 of them walk away with their heads down, having to go home to tell their friends and families that they lost, that is the opposite of self-esteem, 9 to 1. Like the one pianist who lost a major competition and was so devastated that they said they would never play again after working so hard for so many years and giving the performance of their life, only to be judged as an inferior player, changing their life forever.

In the real world, people should be concerned about treating each other with empathy and respect, not incessantly trying to always be better and get a level of superiority over others for awards, trophies, and monetary gain. If someone is sinking, others should not be concentrating on getting to shore or the boat and saving their own a$$, but helping others from drowning by using life saving methods. If we keep educating youngsters to make sure they win at that game of dodgeball during recess, pumping their fists in the air at every high school event, and entering the corporate world of success with the attitude of " I'll sell my soul to get that promotion and become higher than my coworkers ", then society will never truly advance.

Again, don't bother responding to my worthless 2 cents, been here, done that many times, it's just not worth your time. And yes, I was the 98 lb weakling in high school that got abused.
 
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hobie1dog said:
Dave: this is not directed at you, just a blanket statement.

Ethics- people will do anything and everything unethical to win. In auto racing they hide things everywhere so the inspectors don't notice them. In pro sports the list is way too long to name all those that have been caught "cheating " by using banned drugs to gain an "unfair" advantage.

Self-Esteem- if there are 10 people in a competition and 9 of them walk away with their heads down, having to go home to tell their friends and families that they lost, that is the opposite of self-esteem, 9 to 1. Like the one pianist who lost a major competition and was so devastated that they said they would never play again after working so hard for so many years and giving the performance of their life, only to be judged as an inferior player, changing their life forever.

In the real world, people should be concerned about treating each other with empathy and respect, not incessantly trying to always be better and get a level of superiority over others for awards, trophies, and monetary gain. If someone is sinking, others should not be concentrating on getting to shore or the boat and saving their own a$$, but helping others from drowning by using life saving methods. If we keep educating youngsters to make sure they win at that game of dodgeball during recess, pumping their fists in the air at every high school event, and entering the corporate world of success with the attitude of " I'll sell my soul to get that promotion and become higher than my coworkers ", then society will never truly advance.

Again, don't bother responding to my worthless 2 cents, been here, done that many times, it's just not worth your time. And yes, I was the 98 lb weakling in high school that got abused.
Click to expand...

This is not directed at you, either . . .

(1) - True, unethical people will act unethically . . . No matter where they are.

(2) - Self-Esteem . . . In competition, that comes from seeing your efforts pay off, by either performing well against others, or by defeating them. However, you must make the individual effort to succeed !

(3) - The "Real World" - It is all about individual success, not some sort of fictional "Utopian equality". That means actively competing for promotions and raises, rather than having everything "handed to you", in an effort to make everything fair & equitable. Life is not "fair" or "equitable" and neither are the people in it.

Learning all of this, especially at an early age, makes it much less of a "culture shock", when what you were taught about society in school is quite the opposite of what it is in the Real World. Competition teaches these concepts, early in life, while they are relatively insignificant, before one has to face the harsh, merciless "life & death" events of survival in the Real World.

I played Football, Soccer, & Baseball in High School . . .

My coaches used to tell us, "Gentlemen, there will be two possible outcomes of this game. Either you will be victorious or you will not be victorious. The object is to be victorious . . . There are two ways to be non-victorious. Either you will be defeated or you will lose. There is no disgrace in defeat, since you have put forth your best effort and were simply out-performed. However, there is disgrace in losing, since it means that you did not put forth your best effort and that, Gentlemen, is on you !"

Dave F.
 
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astronwolf said:
Club involvement is mostly irrelevant under the new rules. The rules make it such that you only need one other person participating. Time each others flights. No need to get the club involved at all if they don't want to be involved. Two people probably could pull off an NRC meet at a launch and be completely under the radar. No one would know.

This isn't a strategy that I need to use, because my NAR Section doesn't mind if someone wants to time a flight and write the number down on a piece of paper, or do the same with an altitude flight. Just pointing out that club involvement in "flying competition" is not a prerequisite to participating in the NRC.
Click to expand...

I was under the same impression... don’t the current rules basically mean any club launch can be an NRC launch as long as there are two people flying the contest rules?

I fly with 2 clubs regularly and every so often someone times a flight or needs someone to sign off on an altitude reading, or we have a few TARC teams doing qualifying flights...Everyone helps out or waits for the flight to be timed or the electronics to be set. What’s the big deal? Once we had someone timing a glider on a 1/2 A and then moments later someone launching a monster J motor off the rail. Every member of the club is into different things, isn’t that what makes the Hobby interesting for a wide variety of people?
 
Ez2cDave said:
Improving your own results are good for self-esteem, to an extent . . . However, you have nothing to compare them to.

Directly comparing your results, head to head, with the results of others is "Competition", where there are winners and losers.

In Competition, self-esteem comes from being a "gracious winner" and striving to improve your results, if you are defeated, rather than giving up."Ego" is when a Competitor gets a "swelled head" . . . LOL !

Competition teaches ethics, self-esteem, plus motivation to improve and achieve excellence . . . All good "lessons in life" for the real world, where it is "sink or swim" !

Dave F.
Click to expand...


Good points to be sure. Not saying competing is bad... I just wanted to make the point (albeit somewhat badly) that even if there's no competitive event at a launch, it's better than flying alone
 

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