Impulse restrictions at MDRA

[Egoldee]

I was looking at at the page for red glare and noticed that they are limiting the impulse to N and complex M.

Does anyone know why?

 

[Banzai88]

I was looking at at the page for red glare and noticed that they are limiting the impulse to N and complex M.

Does anyone know why?

Most likely is safety as it relates to available stand off distance between the away cell and the house and the spectator area.

One project last year failed super sparky and darn near set the tree on fire beside the house and they probably want to avoid a repeat.

That and there is a long history of the larger rockets casually dropping outside the waiver area...and some trespass issues during recovery that are best avoided.

 

[cbrarick]

from their special projects page
"SPECIAL NOTE: In order to comply with Tripoli Minimum safe distances, the max impulse class allowed is “N”/Complex “M” motors."

 

[StreuB1]

Most likely is safety as it relates to available stand off distance between the away cell and the house and the spectator area.

One project last year failed super sparky and darn near set the tree on fire beside the house and they probably want to avoid a repeat.

That and there is a long history of the larger rockets casually dropping outside the waiver area...and some trespass issues during recovery that are best avoided.

Would that be the abysmal failure that was the dual O motor upscale Deuces?

Still have no idea how that rocket was allowed to fly on that field.

 

[cwbullet]

Would that be the abysmal failure that was the dual O motor upscale Deuces?

Still have no idea how that rocket was allowed to fly on that field.

As much as we all think we would never make that call. It is easy to make a mistake when flight fever mixes with a busy RSO.

One solution: At large launches, all flights above an L or complexity should be reviewed by the most experienced RSO.

 

[Worsaer]

One solution: At large launches, all flights above an L or complexity should be reviewed by the most experienced RSO.

The Tripoli TAP policy explains that TAPs are intended to do more than Level 3 cert flights.

The TAP charter includes the following statements:

“The Range Safety Officer at Tripoli sponsored launches has traditionally been responsible for checking rockets prior to launch approval. However, because of time constraints, the RSO can only judge the essential "look and feel" of a rocket. This does not allow judicious assessment of engineering details or safety features that may be required for high total impulse motors, complex rockets, high altitude flight and recovery.”

“Prefectures or launch sponsors may highly recommend that high impulse rockets be reviewed by the TAP prior to submission to the RSO.”

 

[cwbullet]

The Tripoli TAP policy explains that TAPs are intended to do more than Level 3 cert flights.

The TAP charter includes the following statements:

“The Range Safety Officer at Tripoli sponsored launches has traditionally been responsible for checking rockets prior to launch approval. However, because of time constraints, the RSO can only judge the essential "look and feel" of a rocket. This does not allow judicious assessment of engineering details or safety features that may be required for high total impulse motors, complex rockets, high altitude flight and recovery.”

“Prefectures or launch sponsors may highly recommend that high impulse rockets be reviewed by the TAP prior to submission to the RSO.”

Yes and I love this rule, but some launches and some clubs have launches without a TAP. I guess in these situations, the prefect and another level 3 flier will have to do,

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

Would that be the abysmal failure that was the dual O motor upscale Deuces?

Still have no idea how that rocket was allowed to fly on that field.

Why would you not let the rocket fly if you happened to be the RSO ? It has flown before on the exact same setup , this time it just happened to crack / destroy a nozzle .

 

[Worsaer]

Yes and I love this rule, but some launches and some clubs have launches without a TAP. I guess in these situations, the prefect and another level 3 flier will have to do,

Agreed. The principle makes sense - having another set of eyes on more complex flights can be helpful.

 

[StreuB1]

Why would you not let the rocket fly if you happened to be the RSO ? It has flown before on the exact same setup , this time it just happened to crack / destroy a nozzle .

Because this is a dual O motor complex which requires a minimum safe distance of 2500 feet.

The maximum distance from either away cell at Higgs to any one person (the outhouse or the main house depending on the front or back field) is between 630 feet and 750 feet

Unsure how even a single N or a complex M can fly there. Anything larger than a single M would violate the minimum safe distance chart published by Tripoli.

 

[mrwalsh85]

Because this is a dual O motor complex which requires a minimum safe distance of 2500 feet.

The maximum distance from either away cell at Higgs to any one person (the outhouse or the main house depending on the front or back field) is between 630 feet and 750 feet

Unsure how even a single N or a complex M can fly there. Anything larger than a single M would violate the minimum safe distance chart published by Tripoli.

They're independently insured, aren't they?

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

Because this is a dual O motor complex which requires a minimum safe distance of 2500 feet.

The maximum distance from either away cell at Higgs to any one person (the outhouse or the main house depending on the front or back field) is between 630 feet and 750 feet

Unsure how even a single N or a complex M can fly there. Anything larger than a single M would violate the minimum safe distance chart published by Tripoli.

Thank you for the very detailed report. It's been several years since I've been down there , it must have changed a lot.

 

[Banzai88]

They're independently insured, aren't they?

Yes.

 

[jderimig]

They're independently insured, aren't they?

Yes but you're not unless you obey the association safety code you want insurance coverage from.

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

Yes but you're not unless you obey the association safety code you want insurance coverage from.

As I understand it they have their own Insurance, but try to abide by Tripoli's guidelines.

 

[jsdemar]

As I understand it they have their own Insurance, but try to abide by Tripoli's guidelines.

Insurance of any kind is only valid if no laws or regulations are violated. Maryland adopted NFPA-1, 2018 for the State Fire Code. NFPA-1 includes NFPA-1122/1125/1127. So, regardless of Tripoli affiliation, all HPR in Maryland (and most States) has to follow NFPA-1127 which is the bases for the NAR & Tripoli high-power safety codes.

 

[jderimig]

As I understand it they have their own Insurance, but try to abide by Tripoli's guidelines.

What I meant is usually private insurance covers the club's liability. If your rocket causes a tort, you will be sued and the club's insurance will kick in after your net worth has been depleted and the claim is not fulfilled. NAR will cover your liability where ever you fly if you comply to NAR's safety code. I don't know if TRA insurance covers you individually at a private launch.

 

[tsmith1315]

I don't know if TRA insurance covers you individually at a private launch.

It does. The requirements are here, under "Sanctioned Launch":

https://www.tripoli.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=795696&module_id=468946

 

[jderimig]

It does. The requirements are here, under "Sanctioned Launch":

https://www.tripoli.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=795696&module_id=468946

Is a MDRA launch a TRA sanctioned launch? If it they it wouldn't need private insurance.

 

[Titan II]

There is an extensive discussion of their procedures and their insurance on the MDRA website.

 

[tsmith1315]

Is a MDRA launch a TRA sanctioned launch? If it they it wouldn't need private insurance.

Quoted from the page linked above, this is what is referred to as a Sanctioned Launch:

"Sanctioned Launch​

Also called Insured Launch. Any launch of a rocket that meets ALL of the following constraints:

• Responsible person of launch shall be member of Tripoli in good standing.
• Follows the appropriate Tripoli Safety Code.
• Legal: All AHJ (e.g. FAA waiver) requirements/regulations met and any required permits secured.
• Landowner permission/constraints followed"

 

[THarrison]

I was looking at at the page for red glare and noticed that they are limiting the impulse to N and complex M.

Wow, end of an era. Is URRG currently the only other east coast club that can support O/P flights?

 

[TheTank]

Wow, end of an era. Is URRG currently the only other east coast club that can support O/P flights?

I believe so unless the lake launches in NH happen as you could have the safe distances there easily.

 

[Banzai88]

Wow, end of an era. Is URRG currently the only other east coast club that can support O/P flights?

Nope, Bayboro is still available. All the safety distance you could want, and 5 square miles of open ground!