If Estes wants more of my money, then...

Discussion in 'The Watering Hole' started by BRS Hobbies, Aug 17, 2019.

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  1. Sep 12, 2019 #151

    boatgeek

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    It's worth asking where the people who spend the money are. For scouts, school groups, etc., the people making the buying decisions are old folks like me. Granted, that leads to issues of generational replacement of your customers, but that's a waaaay bigger conversation than this thread.

    On all of the government jobs I work on, the government retains copyright. I don't think they even need to pay royalties to use the design again. That said, boat design has different traditions and somewhat fewer lawyers than aerospace, particularly once the military-industrial complex is involved. I agree on movie/entertainment royalties, though.
     
  2. Sep 13, 2019 #152

    Gerald

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    Estes needs to do some work on their s****y igniters !
    I have had to rework all of them to get positive results every time.
    Dissolved Ping Pong Balls in Acetone to make a flammable glue, and 4 FFFF blackpowder has solved this problem. Igniters.jpg
     
  3. Sep 13, 2019 #153

    Initiator001

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    With the change of ownership at Estes, there has been discussion about possible new motors.

    Higher thrust 'D' motors have been mentioned and variously referred to 'D40' or 'D48'.

    Well, some were made and I expected they were tested.

    My collection contains D48-0 and D48-6 black powder motors.

    They are 24mm in diameter and 89mm long (Same as the CATO plagued E15 motors).

    I don't have any other information on the motors.

    Pictures below are the D48-0 and D48-6 motors along with a D12-3 motor for comparison.
    The picture of the nozzle ends of the motors is pretty impressive.

    EPM 001  D12-3  D48-0  D48-6.jpg EPM 002  D12-3  D48-0  D48-6  Nozzles.jpg
     
  4. Sep 13, 2019 #154

    Nytrunner

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    Geez Initiator, dont tease like that

    They had to remove the pyrogen to maintain the ability to ship them non hazmat.

    The new ones arent horrible, you just need to make sure they contact the propellant, and hold down the launch button so the current can flow. Dont just punch it
     
  5. Sep 13, 2019 #155

    SecondRow

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    I have never had a problem with the igniters when I launch with the kids at home on our Estes launchers. But at the club launch, I’ll get failures maybe 1 out of every 6 or 7 tries.
     
  6. Sep 13, 2019 #156

    Ez2cDave

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    Well, the "good news" is that, if Estes ever comes out with Core-burners, there are so many different options to successfully light them, versus end-burners ( fast Visco, for example ).

    Dave F.
     
  7. Sep 13, 2019 #157

    Gerald

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    At a club launch when your igniter fails, you and your skill as a Rocketeer come into question. Equipment is supposed to have been checked, connections made properly and when it is your rockets turn in the spotlight you want everything to be a "GO".
    Especially since at the two clubs I am in, the club president is the one pressing the launch button.
    Buy removing the crap from the Estes crappy igniters and replacing it with a very flammable compound and easily set off gunpowder I now have 100 % Dip added.png reliability.
    My little igniters even set off the bigger engines, 29mm "F" with no problems.
     
  8. Sep 13, 2019 #158

    Gerald

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    At a club launch when your igniter fails, you and your skill as a Rocketeer come into question. Equipment is supposed to have been checked, connections made properly and when it is your rockets turn in the spotlight you want everything to be a "GO".
    Especially since at the two clubs I am in, the club president is the one pressing the launch button.
    Buy removing the crap from the Estes crappy igniters and replacing it with a very flammable compound and easily set off gunpowder I now have 100 % View attachment 393230 reliability.
    My little igniters even set off the bigger engines, 29mm "F" with no problems.
     
  9. Sep 13, 2019 #159

    Gerald

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    Dip added.png At a club launch when your igniter fails, you and your skill as a Rocketeer come into question. Equipment is supposed to have been checked, connections made properly and when it is your rockets turn in the spotlight you want everything to be a "GO".
    Especially since at the two clubs I am in, the club president is the one pressing the launch button.
    Buy removing the crap from the Estes crappy igniters and replacing it with a very flammable compound and easily set off gunpowder I now have 100 % reliability.
    My little igniters even set off the bigger engines, 29mm "F" with no problems.
     
  10. Sep 13, 2019 #160

    Gerald

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    Didn't mean to post so many times, must be a glitch.
     
  11. Sep 13, 2019 #161

    Ez2cDave

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    Fire, GOOD . . . VERY Flammable, GOOD . . . Core-Burner's GOOD . . . Clusters, GOOD ! ! !

    LOL !

    Dave
     
  12. Sep 13, 2019 #162

    Woody's Workshop

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    Not much, I just need money!
    Maybe someday soon...
     
  13. Sep 18, 2019 #163

    electricmatch

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    We invented a bp starter to replace the estes. no license required to buy them. We're glad that you have a solution, however if you run out of time to make them yourself, you have us as an option. We have a rocketry page on our site listed on our logo to the left
     
  14. Sep 18, 2019 #164

    Ez2cDave

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    https://electricmatch.com/rocketry/see/23/6/bp-rocket-starters

    What is the resistance of these, for clustering purposes ?

    Dave F.
     
  15. Sep 18, 2019 #165

    neil_w

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    Website is also vague about which Estes motors the regular vs. minis are intended for. Have to say, though, the price is very reasonable. Tempted to grab a bunch for my cluster launches, once I understand which ones I would need.
     
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  16. Sep 18, 2019 #166

    electricmatch

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    There is no bridge wire like traditional igniters, so the resistance is all over the board. They are more for single shots, but can be fired in parallel. We have not tested them in clusters, but we will next week. Can you email me as I will have questions on your system, and I don't want to have a ton of threads going. info@electricmatch.com
     
  17. Sep 18, 2019 #167

    neil_w

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    Cluster testing results would be very useful indeed.
     
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  18. Sep 18, 2019 #168

    electricmatch

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    The estes motors are black powder based, so the BP's will work for them all. The minis would just be for the motors with smaller nozzle throat sizes.
     
  19. Sep 18, 2019 #169

    neil_w

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    I'm asking for you to tell me exactly which motors require which igniters.
     
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  20. Sep 18, 2019 #170

    jqavins

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    Kindly allow me to rephrase:
    • What is the resistance, with tolerance?
    • What is the minimum all-fire current?
    • What is the maximum no-fire current?
     
  21. Sep 18, 2019 #171

    BRS Hobbies

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  22. Sep 18, 2019 #172

    electricmatch

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    I'll have to run to the local hobby store and buy some. The only thing we had left was the 1/4 and they are definitely the minis. I think the A and up would all be the standard. Give me a week.
     
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  23. Sep 18, 2019 #173

    neil_w

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    No rush on my behalf; I'm not going to be flying any more this year, so this will be for next year's flying season. I'm just saying that is information you should provide so the customer knows what to buy. I look forward to using these things in the future for my clusters... once someone has done some cluster testing. :)
     
  24. Sep 18, 2019 #174

    electricmatch

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    we never sent them to a lab for those results. we developed them to be a 1 shot igniter, that would not be regulated by the ATF, and fire with the basic estes E launch controller. What I can tell you, however much it helps, is that they need 6 volts to fire. They may start firing around 5 volts, but we did not test for the exact amount. Resistance is all over, there's no average to base a tolerance on. As mentioned in another thread here, there is some good info in here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/best-igniters-for-cluster-ignition.154313/
     
  25. Sep 18, 2019 #175

    Ez2cDave

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    Thank you for clarifying my question . . .

    I am thinking about their uses in clusters of 10 - 20 BP motors, using a 12-volt car battery as the power source.

    Dave F.
     
  26. Sep 19, 2019 #176

    shreadvector

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    Simple reason:

    Estes standard controller uses 4 AA alkaline batteries. When you hit the launch button, the thin bridge wire will glow red hot and keep glowing until the propellant ignites from direct contact or (if installed poorly) from the transfer of heat across a small gap.

    With a club launcher, you most likely have a car battery or other powerful battery and thicker wires out to the pad (or a relay system). When the launch button is pressed, HUGE amounts of current can reach the Starter and the bridge wire will VERY quickly melt in half. it will not sit there and "glow" long enough to transfer heat to the propellant face. If it is in direct contact, it will usually ignite the propellant. If there is the slightest gap, the instant melting of the bridge wire will prevent enough heat from being generated and you will have a misfire.
     
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  27. Sep 19, 2019 #177

    SecondRow

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    Hmm... so clearly the solution is to get the club to start using 4 AAs.:p

    In retrospect, the failures are less frequent than I originally claimed. That was about the rate when we first started launching with the club. With some more attention to igniter placement, I estimate we’ve halved the failure rate. But they still occur.

    I’m fine with the failure rate as is. We launch once a month with the club and maybe we’ll get one.
     
  28. Sep 19, 2019 #178

    neil_w

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    I continue to have flawless* performance of the Estes starters at club launches with 12V systems. That said, I would prefer to use real flaming igniters for clusters.


    *I had one failure last week, but it looked like the starter may not have been installed correctly, as opposed to an actual failure.
     
  29. Sep 19, 2019 #179

    jqavins

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    Pardon my asking, is this speculation, or is there direct evidence? And please pardon also if that sounded belligerent; it sounds like a very good hypothesis and I'm interested to know if there is specific evidence for it.

    This suggests that 12 volt launch controllers might benefit from a current limited mode that holds the current down to a level that allows more time. "Estes Mode" could be switched off for igniters that need more juice.

    (If I remember right, the Estes igniter resistance is about 0.7 Ω. A typical fresh AA alkaline cell has an internal resistance of about 0.15 Ω. So the current would be about 6 V ÷ (0.7 Ω + 4×0.15Ω) = 4.6 A. That's leaving out the wires' resistance, which should be much less. So a 5 or 6 amp limit would let the starter run somewhat hotter, but probably not burn out so fast.)
     
  30. Sep 19, 2019 #180

    Ez2cDave

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    Now, THAT is an interesting idea, not only for Estes igniters, but useful in clustering, also, by being able to "dial the power up or down", at will, on a large car battery powered system.

    "Estes Mode" ( I like it ) . . . I was thinking "toaster mode", until I got to your name for it, where the Nichrome would GLOW, but not burn through, immediately.

    Dave F.
     

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