How many people have built a space shot rocket?

[FredA]

Cost to launch to space at FAR is $10 on 'FAR' 1st and 3rd Saturdays of the month.
That includes the launch pads (20, 50, or 60' available) machine shop use, flush toilets, etc.

Good to know.

 

[Kip_Daugirdas]

Cost to launch to space at FAR is $10 on 'FAR' 1st and 3rd Saturdays of the month.
That includes the launch pads (20, 50, or 60' available) machine shop use, flush toilets, etc.

It is not possible to get a FAA waiver to 328,000’ and *more importantly* the required radius of greater than 10NM at FAR (I have tried). A flight to those altitudes requires a radius of at least 15-20NM. Any launches to that altitude or above will likely be done at Black Rock, NV and through Tripoli.

 

[jsdemar]

It is not possible to get a FAA waiver to 328,000’ and *more importantly* the required radius of greater than 10NM at FAR (I have tried). A flight to those altitudes requires a radius of at least 15-20NM. Any launches to that altitude or above will likely be done at Black Rock, NV and through Tripoli.

Kip is 100% correct. I looked into this a couple years ago and the FAA said absolutely no "space" waivers at FAR. Even the 10NM radius is stretching the limits when reviewed by FAA/AST. About 7NM is within occupied areas (Randsburg, Red Rock Park, etc.). This puts the nominal altitude limit at 160Kft. Generally, 2-stagers will get a more careful review. There may be special provisions for certain projects to go higher, but not to Space.

 

[MClark]

BALLS the waiver can be as high as 492,000, 150km.
The radius is 20 nm I think when at max altitude.

 

[MClark]

Since space shots are team projects I was on a couple of teams.
One Landed on Titan.
Also a few pyros on New Horizons.

 

[High Desert Rocketry]

Good to know.

Launched last year at FAR:

 

[FredA]

Sure hope Evolution makes space - as that's their BUSINESS.
Not what we're talking about here......

 

[wclaybaugh2]

Sure hope Evolution makes space - as that's their BUSINESS.
Not what we're talking about here......

Fred:

I believe the point is that Evolution did get a waiver for more than 100 km for a launch at FAR.

The question is: how? They report that they landed within 1/4 mile of plan which seems to imply a targeted impact / landing.

Their waiver—of which I got a copy from FAA—did state a 10 nm radius which—as John has noted—does include Red Rock State Park and Randsburg.

My conversations with FAA on this topic indicates that hobby rocket waivers were moved from FAA/AST to FAA/ATC and that ATC is focused on collision avoidance rather than third party injury, which they see as, “…your responsibility.”.

Bill

 

[FredA]

Thanks for the clarification on that, Bill.
Wonder if it was a planned ballistic return - otherwise that's nailing the return a bit beyond belief.

WRT to who is doing the waivers - I'm of a mind that if you put it up you are responsible for what it lands on and the real waiver is indeed about getting a clear airspace. Much better thought process, IMHO.

 

[wclaybaugh2]

Thanks for the clarification on that, Bill.
Wonder if it was a planned ballistic return - otherwise that's nailing the return a bit beyond belief.

WRT to who is doing the waivers - I'm of a mind that if you put it up you are responsible for what it lands on and the real waiver is indeed about getting a clear airspace. Much better thought process, IMHO.

Fred:

WRT hobby rocket waivers I’m inclined to agree and that may be why waivers were moved to ATC: FAA/AST exists to conform w/ a treaty obligation to protect uninvolved non-US persons from harm from US space launches. That was extended in the enabling legislation to Include US persons so AST is focused on the uninvolved third party.

Still, it would in theory be nice to be able to claim that FAA reviewed it and thought it was safe after one drops a hobby rocket into the California City Subway….

Bill

 

[jsdemar]

Thanks for the clarification on that, Bill.
Wonder if it was a planned ballistic return - otherwise that's nailing the return a bit beyond belief.

WRT to who is doing the waivers - I'm of a mind that if you put it up you are responsible for what it lands on and the real waiver is indeed about getting a clear airspace. Much better thought process, IMHO.

Evolution Space intended to have full recovery. They planted their two rockets at FAR somewhere into the lake bed. I'm told they aren't invited back. Both were nowhere near the Karman Line.

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

Evolution Space intended to have full recovery. They planted their two rockets at FAR somewhere into the lake bed. I'm told they aren't invited back. Both were nowhere near the Karman Line.

Even though there was confirmation ? Did I miss something? As for as recovery, one of the team members has never liked to pick up after himself

 

[wclaybaugh2]

Evolution Space intended to have full recovery. They planted their two rockets at FAR somewhere into the lake bed. I'm told they aren't invited back. Both were nowhere near the Karman Line.

John:

What’s the background on this, “nowhere near the Karman Line” assertion? Their web site specifically says (22 April 2023) that they “successfully crossed the Karmen Line”.

I watched the Evolution launch from about 1000 feet away and could hear the Kate reporting altitude and velocity over the loudspeaker system. It called out 408,000 feet peak (as I recall, but don’t quote me…I might have misremembered the second and third digits).

That could all have been an elaborate and pre-recorded spoof, and I have no other direct evidence that that rocket did more than launch and fly out of sight. But why would one go to that sort of trouble?

Are you certain that rocket did not reach the claimed altitude?

Bill

 

[Titan II]

https://www.evolutionspace.com/post...-and-completes-successful-first-space-mission

 

[VernK]

Evolution Space intended to have full recovery. They planted their two rockets at FAR somewhere into the lake bed. I'm told they aren't invited back. Both were nowhere near the Karman Line.

I think there might be some confusion here because Evolution Space has launched at least 4 rockets at FAR. Possibly more. Two of which I personally witnessed on-site and helped track. Both of those were intended to cross the Karman line. Only one did. That was the flight on April 22, 2023. GPS confirmed it reached over 400K feet. There have been at least two other flights at FAR that I am aware of, made by Evolution Space, as part of their on going development and testing program. They were smaller rockets and neither of them was intended to cross the Karman line. I think they were more in the 30K feet type range. At least one of those came back ballistic based on photos I have seen. However, I was not there on-site for those two launches.

 

[jsdemar]

I guess I missed the E-S news about the 2nd attempt last April. Was it a FAR-101 Class 3 COA or was it a commercial license?

 

[wclaybaugh2]

I guess I missed the E-S news about the 2nd attempt last April. Was it a FAR-101 Class 3 COA or was it a commercial license?

John:

Per my previous post the COA was FAA Class 3 with a 10nm radius and—as I recall—a waiver altitude of 380,000 feet.

Bill

 

[cerving]

You got some serious bragging rights when you bust a 380K waiver...

 

[jsdemar]

John:

Per my previous post the COA was FAA Class 3 with a 10nm radius and—as I recall—a waiver altitude of 380,000 feet.

Bill

FAA FAR § 101.22 Definitions.
(c) Class 3—Advanced High-Power Rocket means an amateur rocket other than a model rocket or high-power rocket.

Commercial launches requires a commercial launch license and proof of financial responsibility.

 

[bad_idea]

FAA FAR § 101.22 Definitions.
(c) Class 3—Advanced High-Power Rocket means an amateur rocket other than a model rocket or high-power rocket.

Commercial launches requires a commercial launch license and proof of financial responsibility.

The FAA page for commercial space transportation services in describing how amateur rockets are not licensed by the Office of Commercial Space Transportation mentions that amateur rockets are "often a first step in launch program development." They go on to state "To qualify as an amateur rocket, the launch must be suborbital, not have any humans onboard, remain under 150 km (93.2 statute miles), and have a total impulse under 200,000 lb-sec (889,600 Newton seconds)."

Like Part 101, that page does not define who or what an amateur is, it only talks about the rocket.

I'd be interested in any references to the contrary. It's my understanding that other commercial companies have flown under the amateur rules at times.

Edit to add: the parent page to the first link above specifically says: "Commercial space vehicles that do not exceed 150 km in altitude with thrust less than 200,000 lb-sec are classified as amateur rockets." (Obviously they are confusing thrust with impulse.)

 

[jsdemar]

Edit to add: the parent page to the first link above specifically says: "Commercial space vehicles that do not exceed 150 km in altitude with thrust less than 200,000 lb-sec are classified as amateur rockets." (Obviously they are confusing thrust with impulse.)

The website is misquoting the FAA regulations. The actual regulation in the Federal Register are the basis of the law. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-101

§ 1.1 General definitions.

"Amateur rocket" means an unmanned rocket that: ​

(1) Is propelled by a motor or motors having a combined total impulse of 889,600 Newton-seconds (200,000 pound-seconds) or less; and ​

(2) Cannot reach an altitude greater than 150 kilometers (93.2 statute miles) above the earth's surface.​

§ 101.21 Applicability.

(b) A person operating an unmanned rocket other than an amateur rocket as defined in § 1.1 of this chapter must comply with 14 CFR Chapter III.​

In many areas of law, a corporation is considered a "legal person". So, I'll agree with you all that an amateur Class 3 rocket COA may be used by a company.

But, for the purpose of this discussion, an amateur space shot is not one operated by, or paid for by, a commercial or professional "person".

 

[wclaybaugh2]

You got some serious bragging rights when you bust a 380K waiver...

My calculator says that 408k feet is a 7.3% error.

If it were my rocket I’d certainly want to know how that happened, in detail. But it doesn’t seem like that big an error for a first flight of a new vehicle. We can also note that there does not appear to be any waiver altitude violation jail.

Bill

 

[Kip_Daugirdas]

The same FAA individual who does waivers at Black Rock does them at FAR. In fact he does all the waivers in the western CONUS. So I’m not sure about the ATC versus AST comment…we do not have visibility into who he works with internally.

While yes you can get a waiver to 380k ft, it will never have a radius over 10NM. Good luck staying in that cylinder when flying to those altitudes. The only reason Evolution barely stayed in the cylinder is because - per usual - their rocket came in ballistic.

 

[High Desert Rocketry]

Something to ponder:
How long will a satellite stay in orbit at 100 km (Karman Line)?
If your rocket goes to 99.9 km does that mean you have not made 'space'?
Even von Karman thought space starts lower than 100 km.

Neil Armstrong flew the X-15 to ~207,00' and needed reaction control rockets to control the vehicle...

The space shuttle needed to drop below 160,000' to make use of its wings.

Highest a balloon has reached was 176,000'

200,000' looks to me like space , from the above and pictures taken at that altitude

 

[Spacedog49Krell]

Something to ponder:
How long will a satellite stay in orbit at 100 km (Karman Line)?
If your rocket goes to 99.9 km does that mean you have not made 'space'?
Even von Karman thought space starts lower than 100 km.

Neil Armstrong flew the X-15 to ~207,00' and needed reaction control rockets to control the vehicle...

The space shuttle needed to drop below 160,000' to make use of its wings.

Highest a balloon has reached was 176,000'

200,000' looks to me like space , from the above and pictures taken at that altitude

The Air Force maintained a satellite for three orbits with a perigee between 50-55 miles, in the '60's.

 

[wclaybaugh2]

Thanks for the clarification on that, Bill.
Wonder if it was a planned ballistic return - otherwise that's nailing the return a bit beyond belief.

Fred:

I did some noodling w/ my favorite trajectory program and concluded that for a 380k feet waiver, the only way to stay w/i 10 nm is to use a ballistic return.

The winds are interesting: launch angle wants to be near vertical at launch but a bit of wind and a bit of streamer on the way down can help blow the hardware back toward the center of the waiver cylinder.

I think this explains the “1/4 mile from planned” comment in the video: ballistic return is the correct engineering solution to the constraints of that waiver.

Bill

 

[FredA]

I did some noodling w/ my favorite trajectory program and concluded that for a 380k feet waiver, the only way to stay w/i 10 nm is to use a ballistic return.

Yep - This is what sucks about the waiver at Black Rock.
We shoot from the center and only get 15nm radius which is damn hard to recover within the rules and waiver............ballistic returns are not an option.

I thought that White Sands was the only place to do a planned ballistic return.....where else can you do this as a amateur?

 

[rfjustin]

They planted their two rockets at FAR somewhere into the lake bed. I'm told they aren't invited back.

Not invited back, ouch!

Perhaps the next one be called Burning Cash & Burning Bridges?

 

[bad_idea]

The Air Force maintained a satellite for three orbits with a perigee between 50-55 miles, in the '60's.

At first I missed the word perigee and was shocked. Still impressive it didn't decay out of orbit immediately at that altitude. What launch and satellite was this? I'd like to read more.

 

[wclaybaugh2]

Yep - This is what sucks about the waiver at Black Rock.
We shoot from the center and only get 15nm radius which is damn hard to recover within the rules and waiver............ballistic returns are not an option.

I thought that White Sands was the only place to do a planned ballistic return.....where else can you do this as an amateur?

Fred:

The RRS Ballistic Dart appears to stand as an existence proof that ballistic return can be done at Black Rock.

Bill