HELP! Epoxy didn't set up!

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JPX2000

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I was attaching TTW fins to my LOC Magnum last night using Pacer 30-minute Z Poxy (never failed me before). 2 fins are fine, solidly tacked into place. Fin number 3 is not curing. Question - can I clean/scrape the uncured goo off of the fin root and MMT (as much as I can reach) and re-attach? This is my third Magnum, never had epoxy issues in 45 years of model building.
 
This was a small batch to tack the fins in place. About 20ml. Maybe. The thing that gets me is that 2 fins are firmly fixed in place. The third one is stuck on with snail snot. Don’t know if it was the first one I glued up, or the last. But it’s pitiful.
 
This was a small batch to tack the fins in place. About 20ml. Maybe. The thing that gets me is that 2 fins are firmly fixed in place. The third one is stuck on with snail snot. Don’t know if it was the first one I glued up, or the last. But it’s pitiful.

If all three were from the same mixed batch and it still hasn’t cured, you must not have mixed it well enough. I can’t think of any other cause.
It’s a good thing you realized it.
 
This was a small batch to tack the fins in place. About 20ml. Maybe. The thing that gets me is that 2 fins are firmly fixed in place. The third one is stuck on with snail snot. Don’t know if it was the first one I glued up, or the last. But it’s pitiful.

If it still has the consistency of snot then it should clean up easily with alcohol. If it has gotten rubbery then you should still be able to scrape it off. I have had situations where Aeropoxy seeped were it wasn't supposed to be and was still able to scrape it off with a blade 8 hours later because it had not fully cured.
 
Not sure if it is applicable here, but I was given a model boat that had been painted with epoxy. Supposedly it was years old. I moved from Idaho to Virginia, and one summer in my garden shed hardened it. It was not gooey, just sticky.
You may try applying some heat with a hair dryer to see if it will set. (Or pull it out, clean it up and start again) YMMV....
 
I’m sure that I mixed it very well. The only time that I have ever seen this happen was when uncured epoxy was covered with a fresh coat. Guess I’ll just clean it off and do my best. Thanks guys.
 
I’m sure that I mixed it very well. The only time that I have ever seen this happen was when uncured epoxy was covered with a fresh coat. Guess I’ll just clean it off and do my best. Thanks guys.

A fresh coat should have no effect on incited epoxy; it cures by chemical reaction, not evaporation.
 
When working with epoxy, there are a few best practices worth considering:

Make sure the surfaces to be epoxied are clean and fresh. Once cleaned of any oil and surface contaminants, and possibly abraded etc, do not touch! Finger oils greatly reduce bond strength!
Rubbing alcohol is not useful for cleaning as it contains an oil additive. Oily solvents are also not useful for a final cleaning. Denatured alcohol can be used to clean up after oily solvents (turpentine, mineral spirits, acetone, some others).
If there is moisture in what you are bonding, the epoxy will not work right.
If there is alcohol or other solvents in what you are bonding, the epoxy will not work right.
If the surface is polyurethane or teflon or many other materials, the epoxy will not bond well. Some such surfaces can be pre-treated to improve the bond. Pre-treatment can consist of passing the active part of a flame over the surface to be bonded, briefly. You'll cause a bit of chemical reactivity to form at the surface which allows the epoxy (or other adhesive or bonding agent) an improved shot at getting a good bond. The reactivity fades pretty fast so work fast!
If the temperature is below 60F it is too cool. Consider treating 70F as a minimum temperature. If the temperature is over 90F consider it too hot. Too cool a temperature and the epoxy won't cure well. Too hot and it cures too fast and becomes brittle. That's why a proper cure cycle for structural epoxy may have a cure temperature, and a higher post-cure temperature cycle, rather than just trying to cure at the higher post-cure temperature.

Weigh your epoxy, or measure out by volume. Don't eyeball it.

Mix thoroughly, until the epoxy looks clear. Scrape the sides and bottom of the cup, and the mixing stick, repeatedly. Rotate the cup around periodically while mixing.

Do not whip the epoxy to mix. That is just adding air and is counter-productive. Air bubbles do not add strength.

When you think you are done, scrape the epoxy out into a second cup and discard the first along with the mixing stick. Start mixing again with a new mixing stick.

Do not thin the epoxy. Slight additions of solvent cause substantial loss of structural properties.

Now apply the epoxy.

Keep the rest of the epoxy you don't use, or at least a sample of it. Pour some out on some wax paper or some other suitable surface. Use the sample as a cure test. When the epoxy snaps when bent a moderate amount, then it is mostly cured. At least, it shouldn't creep under briefly applied load. In other words, it is now safe to handle. But full cure if elevated temps and/or a post cure cycle are not used, is on the order of a week.

For elevated temperature cure and post cure, to improve mechanical properties and thermal properties such as Tg, see manufacturer's data sheet. If a manufacturer's data sheet is not available, it is not structural epoxy and likely should not be relied upon as such! But that is of more concern for high performance Black Rock projects than for the run of the mill high power rocket.

There's a lot more when it comes to additives and fabrics, but this is a start for general bonding work.

I don't know if any of this helps, but there are plenty of people using bad practices with epoxy. Because epoxy is pretty forgiving (particularly typical consumer epoxy), most of the time people get away with lots of bad practices but don't realize how much of the possible final structural performance they are losing in the process.

Also different epoxy is designed for different jobs. West Systems for instance is designed for fabric coating wooden boats. It is thicker so it doesn't run as much on vertical and near vertical surfaces. It has a very low Tg (glass transition temperature) so the epoxy creeps on hot days. Wood changes dimensions based on humidity and temperature, so having an epoxy which adjusts is a benefit. For an airplane wing however, that same "adjustment" could be very bad... West is very good for what it is designed for. It is not good for some other applications. I'm just using West as an example because it is well known and often mis-used.

Gerald
 
When working with epoxy, there are a few best practices worth considering:

Make sure the surfaces to be epoxied are clean and fresh. Once cleaned of any oil and surface contaminants, and possibly abraded etc, do not touch! Finger oils greatly reduce bond strength!
Rubbing alcohol is not useful for cleaning as it contains an oil additive. Oily solvents are also not useful for a final cleaning. Denatured alcohol can be used to clean up after oily solvents (turpentine, mineral spirits, acetone, some others).
If there is moisture in what you are bonding, the epoxy will not work right.
If there is alcohol or other solvents in what you are bonding, the epoxy will not work right.
If the surface is polyurethane or teflon or many other materials, the epoxy will not bond well. Some such surfaces can be pre-treated to improve the bond. Pre-treatment can consist of passing the active part of a flame over the surface to be bonded, briefly. You'll cause a bit of chemical reactivity to form at the surface which allows the epoxy (or other adhesive or bonding agent) an improved shot at getting a good bond. The reactivity fades pretty fast so work fast!
If the temperature is below 60F it is too cool. Consider treating 70F as a minimum temperature. If the temperature is over 90F consider it too hot. Too cool a temperature and the epoxy won't cure well. Too hot and it cures too fast and becomes brittle. That's why a proper cure cycle for structural epoxy may have a cure temperature, and a higher post-cure temperature cycle, rather than just trying to cure at the higher post-cure temperature.

Weigh your epoxy, or measure out by volume. Don't eyeball it.

Mix thoroughly, until the epoxy looks clear. Scrape the sides and bottom of the cup, and the mixing stick, repeatedly. Rotate the cup around periodically while mixing.

Do not whip the epoxy to mix. That is just adding air and is counter-productive. Air bubbles do not add strength.

When you think you are done, scrape the epoxy out into a second cup and discard the first along with the mixing stick. Start mixing again with a new mixing stick.

Do not thin the epoxy. Slight additions of solvent cause substantial loss of structural properties.

Now apply the epoxy.

Keep the rest of the epoxy you don't use, or at least a sample of it. Pour some out on some wax paper or some other suitable surface. Use the sample as a cure test. When the epoxy snaps when bent a moderate amount, then it is mostly cured. At least, it shouldn't creep under briefly applied load. In other words, it is now safe to handle. But full cure if elevated temps and/or a post cure cycle are not used, is on the order of a week.

For elevated temperature cure and post cure, to improve mechanical properties and thermal properties such as Tg, see manufacturer's data sheet. If a manufacturer's data sheet is not available, it is not structural epoxy and likely should not be relied upon as such! But that is of more concern for high performance Black Rock projects than for the run of the mill high power rocket.

There's a lot more when it comes to additives and fabrics, but this is a start for general bonding work.

I don't know if any of this helps, but there are plenty of people using bad practices with epoxy. Because epoxy is pretty forgiving (particularly typical consumer epoxy), most of the time people get away with lots of bad practices but don't realize how much of the possible final structural performance they are losing in the process.

Also different epoxy is designed for different jobs. West Systems for instance is designed for fabric coating wooden boats. It is thicker so it doesn't run as much on vertical and near vertical surfaces. It has a very low Tg (glass transition temperature) so the epoxy creeps on hot days. Wood changes dimensions based on humidity and temperature, so having an epoxy which adjusts is a benefit. For an airplane wing however, that same "adjustment" could be very bad... West is very good for what it is designed for. It is not good for some other applications. I'm just using West as an example because it is well known and often mis-used.

Gerald


Thanks, Gerald. These are the standards I pretty much hold onto when working with epoxy. Whether it's resin based, or polyester, I have never had many problems using it. I've been using it for model airplanes, rockets, molds, and even work for over 50 years. Still an uncured mystery to me.
 
Many moons ago I was told that DEET (yes, the insect repellent) was a good solvent for many otherwise-insoluble organic materials. Back when I wore a watch, I found that insect repellent would smear the plastic onto my wrist. 100% DEET repellent isn't difficult to find, and may be worth a shot to remove epoxy that won't come off any other way.

Best -- Terry
(AKA Prfesser, now prfesser emariotus? emearitus? emaritus?...prfesser-old-farte
 
But then you might have trouble ever getting the epoxy to bond. Plus, DEET plus something which dissolves it (like perhaps acetone) would result in a fluid which will transport the DEET through your skin. That is a bad plan.

Gerald
 
Many moons ago I was told that DEET (yes, the insect repellent) was a good solvent for many otherwise-insoluble organic materials. Back when I wore a watch, I found that insect repellent would smear the plastic onto my wrist. 100% DEET repellent isn't difficult to find, and may be worth a shot to remove epoxy that won't come off any other way.

Best -- Terry
(AKA Prfesser, now prfesser emariotus? emearitus? emaritus?...prfesser-old-farte

Hi, Terry. Haven't seen you since NARAM something-something. Nice to see that you're still kickin'.
 
But then you might have trouble ever getting the epoxy to bond. Plus, DEET plus something which dissolves it (like perhaps acetone) would result in a fluid which will transport the DEET through your skin. That is a bad plan.

Gerald

Sorry, I assumed that the user would be wearing decent gloves (nitrile or the like). Non-glove-users be forewarned: sensitization is forever, and the only kind of glue you'll be using afterward is white or yellow carpenter's glue. The only time I DON'T wear gloves when handling epoxy is when I'm mixing a couple drops---and sometimes even then I wear them. 100% DEET and/or acetone would definitely warrant gloves when using it as a solvent. This olde farte plans to live forever or die in the attempt. :)

Best -- Terry
 
There are commercial products for removing cured epoxy, and consumer products such as Attack or whatever they call it. I don't know but would expect any remaining residue would inhibit epoxy cure when rebonding.

Terry, sometimes I tend to belabor the obvious a bit much perhaps. I tend to put out warnings and not assume everyone has a clue how to handle chemicals etc. YouTube cured me of such assumptions long ago! I used to start with a few MSDS for any unfamiliar chemistry, but in the past decade lawyer-based a$$ covering has made most MSDSs much less informative then they used to be. Anyway, I knew that YOU knew how to handle chemicals! I did mention acetone though as most probably do not know it is a good transporter chemical (I forget the correct term). Get something nasty on skin, and try to clean it up with acetone and the acetone transports it right through the skin. There is even an old Chinese common medicine which was aspirin dissolved in acetone. If you had a headache, put a drop or so on your forehead. The acetone would transport the aspirin through the skin. IIRC, when I saw it, it might have had a bit of mint and some green coloring added as well. Being allergic to Aspirin I stay away from it of course!

Gerald

PS - I thought I posted this, but apparently not!
 
I don't think I am in time to help in this thread, but here is a suggestion for an uncommon solvent that works great on most uncured epoxies (once cured you are effectively SOL). Use Limonene, it is an oil extract from the skin of lemons and other citrus fruit and it is a strong solvent. I have seen it work in places where acetone balks.

The best part of Limonene is that instead of a warning label it literally has a benefits list. This is from WebMD;

Overview Information
Limonene is a chemical found in the peels of citrus fruits and in other plants. It is used to make medicine.

Limonene is used to promote weight loss, prevent cancer, treat cancer, and treat bronchitis.

In foods, beverages, and chewing gum, limonene is used as a flavoring.

In pharmaceuticals, limonene is added to help medicinal ointments and creams penetrate the skin.

In manufacturing, limonene is used as a fragrance, cleaner (solvent), and as an ingredient in water-free hand cleansers.

How does it work?
Limonene may block cancer-forming chemicals and kill cancer cells in the laboratory. But more research is needed to know if this occurs in humans.

And WebMD forgets to mention that it is also an industrial solvent. It is harder to find and a bit more pricey when you compare it to DNA or Acetone, but heck, it cures your cancer while you are working on rockets. I think that is worth any price.

I found it here; https://www.bestvaluevacs.com/bvv-u...yequ-DGwsiTJs8ex8-mbvyXlrUAYSoqRoCxyQQAvD_BwE

It looks like it has gone up in price since I last bought it. My guess is it depends on the orange season.

Two suggestions; 1 buy the pure oil, that is what will work on epoxy. 2. Get it in a metal can. After a year the stuff literally melted through the plastic container mine came in and needed to be shifted to a new container.

Warning - continuous exposure to citrus oils may result in overwhelming urges to drink Gin & Tonics while it is curing your cancer.
 
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