GUNS & ROCKETS

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Steve Shannon

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Picked these up today from my Dad:
View attachment 414248
M1 circa pre Korean, dont think its WWII. GM made.
Marlin 39a, one owner, my Dad.
M1 carbines are super fun to shoot. I wish I had bought all the Korean surplus ammo and magazines I could have 30 years ago. Nice Marlin too.

Speaknoevil

Well-Known Member
Something fun. Ordered one of these today: https://gamousa.com/product/c-15-bone-collector-blowback-dual-pellet-bb-co2-pistol/. No longer on my 150 acre estate (although my wife still is ). Bought a house in a small historic village on the Wabash River. The house had been vacant for 6+ months, so naturally have critters snooping around and disrupting. Can't very well use my 9mm and 357 Magnums in town, so we'll see how effective ballistic pellets are at deterring these pests.

DRAGON64

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Nice. That is a crazy looking gun. The intimadation factor alone will scare a zombie (or intruder) off.
This rifle is a real pussy cat to shoot, as the power is cut down to sub 12 ft lbs for WFTF competition (World Field Target Federation).

Who make the position shooting stock?
The stock came from Gary Cane stocks across the "big pond" in England. I searched and emailed and called various stock makers in the US, and no one would make a stock for this rifle... but Gary Cane took my money!

DRAGON64

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Picked these up today from my Dad:
View attachment 414248
M1 circa pre Korean, dont think its WWII. GM made.
Marlin 39a, one owner, my Dad.

Love the carbine; my son is about graduate from college, and I am going to look for an M1 Carbine to give him as a graduation gift. He is not a shooter, but he said he would love to own one of these rifles... Auto Ordnance makes a perfect working replica, if I do not locate an affordable mil-surp version.

manixFan

Not a rocket scientist
Got in some 1911 cabin fever therapy today. I belong to an outdoor range, so I was standing out in the full sun - it felt great. Was in one of the action bays, so only 12 yards, but still good to get some time behind the irons. Just Federal bulk ammo, nothing special, but still fun. The smaller one is a Dan Wesson Guardian in 9mm, alloy frame, slim grips. Just a fantastic shooter, makes everyone look good. It's my 'first timers' 1911, fits nearly all hands like a glove, reasonable recoil, and it somehow aims itself. If someone is new to a 1911, that's what I have them shoot first.

The other is a classic mid '70s, Series 70 Colt Gold Cup. Pretty much just stock, nothing special done to it. But still a great shooter. I find my grip isn't what it used to be so I can't handle the .45 for as many rounds before I start to really wobble. But at least it saves me money!

Pretty soon it's going to be too hot to shoot in the afternoon though. I'm going to have to go very early or after the shade kicks in and covers the line in the early evening. Even today the black magazines were almost too hot to handle after sitting in the sun. One of those things about living in Texas.

Tony

Colt Gold Cup (1970's) and a Dan Wesson 9mm Guardian:

Different lighting on the Gold Cup. Target shot bullseye style from 12 yards. In the 'olden days', that would have been a regular competition 25 yard target. But, time marches on, and took me with it!

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rfjustin

Well-Known Member
Great groups at 12 yards for a pistol!

If I'm all in a 3" circle at that range for a defensive pistol, I'm happy.

UncleJoe

Active Member
A few posts ago I spoke of rim checking your 22 ammo. If you look up manufacturing 22 on YouTube you'll see why rim checking does little to find accuracy differences. He empty 22 brass are placed in a rack where the primer material is measured using a second plate which the material is squeezed across the plate till filled and even. Once filled and even the primer plate is placed over the brass and then pushed the the bottom of the shell. It's the way the primer material is measured and placed into the brass tells you the charge is the same and rarely differs . Rim checking may have more to do with head spacing than over or under perpellent charge.

rharshberger

Well-Known Member
Rim checking may have more to do with head spacing than over or under perpellent charge.
And there you have it, 22 headspaces on the rim, if the firing pin has to move shell forward to dent the rim it is additional motion added to the motion of the firing pin. Many people have a hard time understanding the why of competition shooting processes (some are a lot of effort for very little gain). Lock time the time from the trigger breaking to the round firing is affected by headspace, as it takes slightly longer for the firing pin to move that additional .001", then more movement is incurred after ignition as the round is pushed back against the breach face. Trigger pull incurs its own movement penalties. The best groups are where everything is the most consistent.

UncleJoe

Active Member
And there you have it, 22 headspaces on the rim, if the firing pin has to move shell forward to dent the rim it is additional motion added to the motion of the firing pin. Many people have a hard time understanding the why of competition shooting processes (some are a lot of effort for very little gain). Lock time the time from the trigger breaking to the round firing is affected by headspace, as it takes slightly longer for the firing pin to move that additional .001", then more movement is incurred after ignition as the round is pushed back against the breach face. Trigger pull incurs its own movement penalties. The best groups are where everything is the most consistent.
Nice to hear from another into small bore. Lapua has always been the mystery. The rim's are all over the place yet will hold 1/4" at 50yrs no problem. I have an Oregon Kimber SVT and 3 built up 1022 I use in shilouette competition. Bad part is they all love Eley blk box match the best. Funny how the good stuff works the best. Years back I shot federal 900B, but that and UM1 is no longer made. Don't give up till it one holes.

KenECoyote

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
And there you have it, 22 headspaces on the rim, if the firing pin has to move shell forward to dent the rim it is additional motion added to the motion of the firing pin. Many people have a hard time understanding the why of competition shooting processes (some are a lot of effort for very little gain). Lock time the time from the trigger breaking to the round firing is affected by headspace, as it takes slightly longer for the firing pin to move that additional .001", then more movement is incurred after ignition as the round is pushed back against the breach face. Trigger pull incurs its own movement penalties. The best groups are where everything is the most consistent.
Nice to hear from another into small bore. Lapua has always been the mystery. The rim's are all over the place yet will hold 1/4" at 50yrs no problem. I have an Oregon Kimber SVT and 3 built up 1022 I use in shilouette competition. Bad part is they all love Eley blk box match the best. Funny how the good stuff works the best. Years back I shot federal 900B, but that and UM1 is no longer made. Don't give up till it one holes.
Yes! Earlier I read about the rim thickness checking and my book on 10/22 customizing had a section on that (I recall some charts where they sampled different bullets and there were some with significant variations) and from what I recalled, they did mention it may have an effect based on your headspace (each rifle differs)...I was going to note it, but my knowledge is too rusty by now, so I . I think it made the most sense to check if your headspace was at one extreme or the other and besides that, it was helpful to see which brands had wide variances, but those charts are very old by now. I'm also not up to that level...so many other things I'd need to get consistent/near perfect first.

So I always wondered...how many shots through would you say is expected/reasonable when someone says their gun can shoot "one hole" groups? (At least 2 I hope! ) And at what distance for .22LR?

rharshberger

Well-Known Member
Yes! Earlier I read about the rim thickness checking and my book on 10/22 customizing had a section on that (I recall some charts where they sampled different bullets and there were some with significant variations) and from what I recalled, they did mention it may have an effect based on your headspace (each rifle differs)...I was going to note it, but my knowledge is too rusty by now, so I . I think it made the most sense to check if your headspace was at one extreme or the other and besides that, it was helpful to see which brands had wide variances, but those charts are very old by now. I'm also not up to that level...so many other things I'd need to get consistent/near perfect first.

So I always wondered...how many shots through would you say is expected/reasonable when someone says their gun can shoot "one hole" groups? (At least 2 I hope! ) And at what distance for .22LR?
10 rounds and competition ranges, with a .22 generally up to 50meters. The guys that always impressed me were the Free Pistol shooters shot at 50m, you miss the bullseye and probably wont even get second place! The bullseye is 50mm diameter, open sights only, triggers measured in single digit grams, custom fitted grips, no restrictions on weight or barrel length. Needless to say I am not even close to that group. Most of the stuff I shot was Spokesman Review's Postal Pistol with the Spokane Rifle Clubs Pistol Team (I was second team, as a 287 of 300 average was not enough to always make the first team, which included a former Olympic Shooter Darius Young). Usually I shot a High Standard 107 Supermatic Citation with a 6" fluted barrel.

As for the rim thickness measurement with semi-autos it might get lost in all the other movement, however I tried everything I could to get those 13 points I was missing for a 300.....

Certain ammo's do perform better than others and as most shooters know or learn every gun has its preference, I was at one time also an avid varminter for prairie dogs and ground squirrels so reloading was something I did a lot of some for custom barrelled M700 Remingtons (never had the money for a 40X) and a M77 Ruger (no Mark number) in .220 Swift that with with 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips was easily zapping ground squirrels at 300 plus yards. My other varmint rifles were in .223, 22-250, even a real oddball M700 in .270Win with a custom Douglas airgauged barrel like a truck axle, the gun without scope weight 12lbs, but would zap a prairie pooch at 500yards with 135 Sierra Matchkings. Mostly now they just punch paper or steel gongs. With ammo loaded for those specific guns they were capable of amazing accuracy, my best 5 shot group from the .220 Swift was .17" for 10 shots at 100 yards (looks about like a ragged 30cal hole).

manixFan

Not a rocket scientist
rharshberger mentions a High Standard Supermatic Citation. Once upon a time, High Standards were standard fare among serious target shooters, as rharshberger can attest. I like them because their grip angle and safety placement mimics the 1911. The original Hamden, CT location models are the most sought after, followed by East Hartford. They were later bought out and moved to Texas, but that's another story.

One of the things that was unusual about the target models was the way the rear sight was mounted to the frame and the slide moved within the mounting bracket. It is a bit of a challenge to 'rack the slide' but well worth the consistency in sight alignment. My Supermatic Trophy is very similar in looks to a Citation with a fluted barrel. It is a great shooter and one of my secret weapons I bring out when I'm shooting against my much younger nephews. They give me grief for being such an old timer, but my scores quiet them down.

Tony

Below, you can see that that the rear sight is mounted to the tang of the frame and the slide moves within that sight mount. A bit awkward, but well worth it. The barrel and rear sight are both immobile, so they stay in alignment, unlike many other pistol designs where one of the sights is not fixed to the barrel or frame.

UncleJoe

Active Member
Yes! Earlier I read about the rim thickness checking and my book on 10/22 customizing had a section on that (I recall some charts where they sampled different bullets and there were some with significant variations) and from what I recalled, they did mention it may have an effect based on your headspace (each rifle differs)...I was going to note it, but my knowledge is too rusty by now, so I . I think it made the most sense to check if your headspace was at one extreme or the other and besides that, it was helpful to see which brands had wide variances, but those charts are very old by now. I'm also not up to that level...so many other things I'd need to get consistent/near perfect first.

So I always wondered...how many shots through would you say is expected/reasonable when someone says their gun can shoot "one hole" groups? (At least 2 I hope! ) And at what distance for .22LR?
If you ask a bench rest shooter he'll say 5 to 10 shots at 50yrs tells all. I was taught by a bench rest competitor so I'm one that believes 5 shots tell the truth. The biggest factor in doing one hole groups is placement. Knowing how your rifle shoots. Time on trigger and consistent ammo will reveal that knowledge. Oh, quick thing about the 3 shot group. Your barrel is still cold and unfouled after 2 shots. On the third, the barrels hot and the impact starts to move. This is were 5 shots tell you real accuracy. General groups for 22 is 3/4" at 50yrs, 1 1/2" at 100yrs. The best thing of 22 shooting isn't the firearm but the fun of plinking away. May favorite target is plastic army men for the dollar store. Line up and knock'm down.

FredA

Well-Known Member
General groups for 22 is 3/4" at 50yrs, 1 1/2" at 100yrs. The best thing of 22 shooting isn't the firearm but the fun of plinking away.
My 22 RedWolf [air rifle] will do one hole at 50yards all day. No barrel warm up, no lead fowling. Just pure plinking fun.

rharshberger

Well-Known Member
My 22 RedWolf [air rifle] will do one hole at 50yards all day. No barrel warm up, no lead fowling. Just pure plinking fun.
Air rifles are entirely different animals, they have different needs and wants. I have owned several over the years but none were high end guns like yours. Comparing air rifles to cartridge guns is like apples to oranges, about the only thing comparable besides velocity (usually about 1000fps or so) is shooting positions. I own a Beeman break open that is very accurate and in .22 cal, its definitely fun to shoot, and its what my kids are starting on, it however has the same safety requiremnts as a .22 rimfire because because its a gun and it develops slightly more velocity than my match ammo .22s. Someday I hope to add a higher end air rifle to my collection.

FredA

Well-Known Member
Plus, pellets are 4 cents each and run on air...once invested it's cheap.

Don't forget you can buy 50-cal airguns now....easily taking hogs in Texas.

DaveW6DPS

Well-Known Member
rharshberger mentions a High Standard Supermatic Citation. Once upon a time, High Standards were standard fare among serious target shooters, as rharshberger can attest...

...One of the things that was unusual about the target models was the way the rear sight was mounted to the frame and the slide moved within the mounting bracket....
I have that exact pistol, which I have worn out. The fixed sight mounting is common on target pistols. The Browning Buck Mark that replaced my High Standard has the same thing, as does my Ruger mk1. It definitely allows you to keep a consistent sight picture during rapid fire stages. The long sight length on these definitely helps accuracy, also.

It is quite different shooting a normal pistol with the shorter sight length and sights that move with the slide.

rharshberger

Well-Known Member
I have that exact pistol, which I have worn out. The fixed sight mounting is common on target pistols. The Browning Buck Mark that replaced my High Standard has the same thing, as does my Ruger mk1. It definitely allows you to keep a consistent sight picture during rapid fire stages. The long sight length on these definitely helps accuracy, also.

It is quite different shooting a normal pistol with the shorter sight length and sights that move with the slide.
Definitely a lot easier to be a good shot with the pistols listed, personally I have never owned a Ruger Mk1 pistol (or Mk2 or MkIII for that matter), but I know a few guys who shoot tuned Mk1 and Mk2 pistols in competition. TBH my favorites are the High Standards, S&W 41 (original not the one released in the last 20 or so years), and the Browning Buckmark. My current target pistol is the Browning Buckmark Contour URX 7.25" barrel Target model, which I bought in the early 2000ish year range, trigger has been tuned, and a 7.25" lightweight fluted (aluminum sleeve with steel rifled liner) by Tactical Solutions (now TandemKross) its shoots every bit as good as my more collectable target guns and I don't have to worry about damaging one of my classics. I still shoot the classics but not the 1000's of rounds each year like I used to.

As for my large bore stuff (mostly .45 and .40) minute of forehead is accurate enough at 25yds for what I use them for (defense).

jd2cylman

Still not Carl... ;-)
You guys are a bad influence on me. Just placed a payment on a Winchester 1873 .44 WCF made in 1891. Octagonal barrel with full magazine. Not gonna win any beauty pageants, but is still able to be used and also be collectible as an investment. I guess if I start enjoying shooting it, I can always buy a new one with a more common and cheaper round caliber. Once I get it I'll post pictures.

rharshberger

Well-Known Member
You guys are a bad influence on me. Just placed a payment on a Winchester 1873 .44 WCF made in 1891. Octagonal barrel with full magazine. Not gonna win any beauty pageants, but is still able to be used and also be collectible as an investment. I guess if I start enjoying shooting it, I can always buy a new one with a more common and cheaper round caliber. Once I get it I'll post pictures.
My dream is a 1874 Sharps Creedmoor or Quigley in any of the 45 calibers 45-70, 45-90, 45-100, 45-110, or 45-120. The 45-70 being the most common but long range is the game I want to play more and BPCR may be the direction I head next, that and small bore silhouette of which I believe my 10/22 Target model will work fine for.

Andrew_ASC

UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st
Silly Covid closed the range another month. Trying to find another. Sorry for lack of update. Ended up buying a RM05G rmr from Arms Unlimited and a RM35 acog Mount half off basically. I think other than a sling am done with build on first AR. Need to get back into rockets. Rockets were cheaper because flew less often. LoLL plus I miss you guys.

Yukon@K-9 Rocket Tech

Just a teen who likes building rockets
Can anyone here can shoot a twig with no scope with a Ruger 10/22 at 100 yards? I know someone who can

o1d_dude

'I battle gravity'
I think I’m going to start the paperwork tomorrow on one of the new Colt Pythons. Want 6” barrel but that model may not be available in the the failed socialist state of California.

My butt is sore from kicking myself for not buying the 6” Python I saw at the gun shop oh so many years ago...1982-1983? That particular gun shop is long gone but the memory remains.

FredA

Well-Known Member
Can anyone here can shoot a twig with no scope with a Ruger 10/22 at 100 yards?
Sure - shoot at a tree, you have good odds of hitting a twig.....

Yukon@K-9 Rocket Tech

Just a teen who likes building rockets
Sure - shoot at a tree, you have good odds of hitting a twig.....
Lol true cause it took 10 shots, but at the same time a 10/22 is pretty easy to aim cause you can hit a 8 inch steel plate at 110 yards without a scope no problem

MikeyDSlagle

Well-Known Member
I think I’m going to start the paperwork tomorrow on one of the new Colt Pythons. Want 6” barrel but that model may not be available in the the failed socialist state of California.

My butt is sore from kicking myself for not buying the 6” Python I saw at the gun shop oh so many years ago...1982-1983? That particular gun shop is long gone but the memory remains.
Always wanted a Python. Would love to have a Python. Shot an Anaconda once, but never a Python. At a recent gun show there was a guy had a display case full of Pythons. Probably 2 dozen, ranging in price from 1500 to 4000, likely higher. I doubt I will ever drop a grand on a new Python however, not that I won't pay that much for a good gun. Not get too deep into it, Colt has fell off their rocker more times than I care to count. Now they say "Still making history"...No... you are making history again. They re-release the iconic Python and jack the price up on the because of it's history and status as an icon. Anyway...

I passed on a sequential set of Ruger Vaqueros some years ago. Kick myself pretty regularly about that now.
Then more recently I passed on a Model 1100 with 2 barrels, a wood case and few more items....*kick*...
Last year I was shopping for my LCR. Drove south to a gun show just to buy the LCR. Saw a Wiley Clapp GP100 snub nose for around 600 bucks, fell in love. I found the LCR and bought it because I needed it to carry but man I wish I would have got the GP100. *kick*

KenECoyote

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Can anyone here can shoot a twig with no scope with a Ruger 10/22 at 100 yards? I know someone who can
Depends on "how big day twig"!

Personally, my idea of a twig isn't even visible to me at 100 yards.

o1d_dude

'I battle gravity'
Always wanted a Python. Would love to have a Python. Shot an Anaconda once, but never a Python. At a recent gun show there was a guy had a display case full of Pythons. Probably 2 dozen, ranging in price from 1500 to 4000, likely higher. I doubt I will ever drop a grand on a new Python however, not that I won't pay that much for a good gun. Not get too deep into it, Colt has fell off their rocker more times than I care to count. Now they say "Still making history"...No... you are making history again. They re-release the iconic Python and jack the price up on the because of it's history and status as an icon. Anyway...

I passed on a sequential set of Ruger Vaqueros some years ago. Kick myself pretty regularly about that now.
Then more recently I passed on a Model 1100 with 2 barrels, a wood case and few more items....*kick*...
Last year I was shopping for my LCR. Drove south to a gun show just to buy the LCR. Saw a Wiley Clapp GP100 snub nose for around 600 bucks, fell in love. I found the LCR and bought it because I needed it to carry but man I wish I would have got the GP100. *kick*
Sounds like we feel each other’s pain, Mikey.

The list price on the new Python 6” Stainless is just under $2000. I’m at a point in my life where the money is barely a consideration any more and not because I’m rich. It’s because life is uncertain and none of us is getting any younger so I‘m going to eat my dessert FIRST. The Python will go to my oldest son when I make the trip to Valhalla. MikeyDSlagle Well-Known Member Sounds like we feel each other’s pain, Mikey. The list price on the new Python 6” Stainless is just under$2000. I’m at a point in my life where the money is barely a consideration any more and not because I’m rich. It’s because life is uncertain and none of us is getting any younger so I‘m going to eat my dessert FIRST. The Python will go to my oldest son when I make the trip to Valhalla.
I have no qualms paying $1k or even$1500 for a good gun. And $2000 isn't unreasonable for a great gun, and I've no doubt the Python is a good gun, but$2000? I don't know. I thought they were listed around $1500, but whichever. If it is hand fitted, then$1500 is not a terrible price, but $2000 is in the realm of a hand tuned "match" grade. It better be butter smooth and shoot even the hardest primers. The comp/match grade Rugers and Smiths come in under$2000. Of course, they are not Pythons. Kimber DASA is sub $1000 and hand fitted, but only 3". And, again, not a Python. And now I'm just rambling. Now I am not saying the Python is not worth$2K. Nor am I saying you should not buy it. They are great looking guns no doubt and definitely heirloom worthy. I just think the \$2K price tag goes back to the iconic image of the legendary Colt Python. Just look at the price tags on their SSAs. Should provide many years of use for anyone nonetheless.
Enjoy the full magnum loads in an American icon that can handle said loads!!
Then come back here and tell me how the thing shoots!

Just how much paperwork is involved in purchasing a revolver over there? And why would 6" be unavailable? Just curious.

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o1d_dude

'I battle gravity'
The laws concerning firearm ownership and purchase in California defy logic.

We have a handgun “roster“ that is an official list of handguns that are deemed “not unsafe”. Handguns not on said list cannot be sold in California...except to law enforcement. In order to get on the roster, manufacturers must submit a number of specimens for testing. Semi-auto pistols must feature a method of creating an identifiable imprint on the shell casing. The patent holder has long since disavowed the technology and claimed after years of trying he was unable to create a functional system. Former State Attorney General Kamala D Harris decided otherwise and implemented the requirement. Most revolvers are exempted from the imprinting requirement but still have to be tested to get on the roster.

Small manufacturers simply decide California acceptance isn’t worth the expense or effort. Each year a number of handguns “scroll” off the roster due to changes to the original accepted model. Most changes are additional safety features but sometimes involve thing like different locations for magazine release or safety selector. Eventually there will be NO handguns on the roster.